Sealed room problems: phantom deficiencies, leaf necrosis; offgassing/outgassing

[cemchris]

Thanks, cemchris and maxwell for the kind words.

As far as root aphids or other bugs, i've spent hours examining the roots and leaves for bugs. The only ones I could find were tiny soil mites; at first I thought they were the so called "micro" aphids but I had an entomologist look at them and she said they were harmless, even perhaps beneficial soil mites. Said they were a sign of healthy soil. I was using a large amount of beneficial bacteria and fungi, both mixed into the medium and applied via ACT teas. Then I began to suspect my water source so I changed course and went to RO water plus Dutch Master zone to no avail. So I think I've ruled out my water as the problem (it didn't make sense also for other reasons).

My roots look much healthier than the foliage btw.

Today I replaced my garden hoses, which I confirmed were vinyl, with 100% rubber hose. I know goodyear makes rubber hose, maybe that is what you have chemchris? Anyway I have a few scraps of other tubing of various sizes which I suspect is vinyl. I will also replace those tomorrow. Still at loss really and not convinced it is the vinyl hoses and tubing but figure it is worth a try. I appreciate all the thoughtful comments, keep them coming please. I know someone out there must have had this problem; there must be a solution.

NP man. I have chased my far share of issues and am right now at the moment.

Yea the Goodyear garden hose is redish in color. Sell it at home depot. Might be recycled old tires not sure...

 

[purpleberry]

I think there maybe just a issue of the plants need fresh air, Is there things in the air plants need becides co2?
Like ive said ive seen this issue and had it happen to me, it doesnt happen everytime. But when ive set a room up with fresh air the problem goes away. Any room i see with this issue first thing i do is get fresh air set up. I wont know for a while if this fixes everyones problem, but i think it atleast will help, plants love fresh air.

 

[Empire]

not gonna read through the entire thread word for word.. but didnt notice anyone bringing it up so i figured id say something since u seem to be chasing all kinds of crazy ass variables.

what i notice from your tiny pictures is this.

u have multiple deficiencies going on.
the plants look severely unhappy.
the plants are sitting on a concrete floor.
the plants are in tiny pots.

all of that leads me to say your problem is ph lockout from cold roots.

u cant sit pots on a concrete floor and expect the root temps to stay warm enough for nutrients to not be locked out.

your problem is not fresh air. or off gassing. or any of that shit. your problem is ph lockout. why that is happening? thats the question. but id be willing to bet 100 bucks on it that your roots are to cold. if they are on a concrete or cold floor in general, i can guarantee thats your problem.

if this is your case. get the plants off the floor immediately and flush out the medium with a good nute mix until u get the same runoff coming out of the pot as you do going in (mainly watching ph). get your temps up (especially during lights off), dont let them drop below 67-68 ever. i would probably foliar feed them some floraliscious plus or some maxicrop... maybe a little bit of calmag as well.. direct inject some food in there system.

 

[Resinable]

grower420: Sounds like your problem have been with your nutrients; my nuts are fine, used for many runs with no problems.

cemchris: Yeh, that goodyear hose you have is 100% rubber, I saw it at home depot just yesterday.

purpleberry: I don't think plants necessarily need "fresh air;" just prior to this grow I ran a sealed room for years, with no fresh air (except maybe a tiny amount leaking in through vented hoods) with no problems. I believe many others do also. But fresh air might be my only practical solution if my hunch that outgassing is the problem is correct.

Empire: I had not thought about the concrete floors but I doubt they are the problem. The room is set at about 80 degrees and the pond liner which is black and absorbs heat is between the concrete and the pots. I will put a temp gun on the liner but I doubt it is very cold. As far as ph lock out due to low root temps how does that work? My nut solution going in is about 5.5 to 6.1 ph; coming out it is about .1 ph higher so I do not think it is a ph problem. Also if the plants root zone was cold I would expect slow growth rates not totally sick plants which are obviously absorbing very little nutrients.
The reason they are still in the small pots is because most of them have not yet filled out even those small pots with roots. There is no need to step up pot size until they do so. A few times in the past when behind schedule on transplanting, I've grown completely healthy plants much larger than these in solo cups. So I really don't think small pots is causing these plants to look this way.


Anyway, I've begun installing an expensive intake, outake system. I just hope that if there is an offgassing issue this solves it. I'm planning to have the ability to exchange the air twice in one minute (as per heath Robinson).

 

[TrichromeFan]

Do you know the exact nature of the problem with the dehuey that your friends had? I'm wondering what it could be since dehumidifiers work on the same principals and basic components as air conditioners. Leaking refrigerant maybe?

Btw, I noticed in your room you have a lot of reflectix insulation; is your room sealed? I know a lot of people use reflectix in their grow rooms and its seems unlikely that it could be the problem, but since my whole room is encased in the stuff I wonder?

I am not sure what the problem with the dehuey was. It was on someone's thread on here. Leaking refrigerant sounds like a good of a guess as I would have. My rooms are indeed sealed with 100% reflectix walls and ceiling too. That is not your problem.

-TF

 

[Donkdbz]

Here how to figure out problem.

1-turn mini-split real low for an hour. If its kicking out COLD air its good.
mini-splits with bad connection will leak all refrigerant within 48hours.

2- take dehumid out.

3- look at C02 burner for any color but a nice blue

i am pretty sure if its not the dehumd. you got the latest batch of mites.
I would hit the roots with some bayer tree and shrub and then foliar with avid followed by forbid 3 days later.

within a week you will know

if you don't wanna use real pesticides
you need lots of neem and predatory mites and some botanigard and merit 52 to cover the root zone

 

[Resinable]

Donkdz: My Minisplits work great. They are brand new top of the line Mitsubishis installed by a professional, experienced AC tech. They blow very cold air. Plus, I think when Mitsus leak refrigerant they automatically shut themselves down.

The dehuey is and has been on fan only mode but I guess I could remove it from the area and see if anything improves.

The CO2 burner burns pure blue, no propane smell, and passes the carbon monoxide test.

By "latest mites" I assume you mean broad mites? I've looked at great length (with microscope) for signs of them or other pests on the foliage but cannot find them. I'm not opposed to using harsh chemicals if I need to, but I'm reluctant to without even being able to identify my target.

 

[Resinable]

Hey bro, this sounds a little suspicious to me.. Applied beneficial bacteria and fungi should not have anything to do with beneficial mites.. Are you referring to hypoaspis miles? ( http://www.petsnails.co.uk/documents/hypoaspis-miles.html ). In my experience root aphids can look pretty similar. Clean coco /perlite should not have any sort of insect life from the bag.. I know it's likely difficult , but could you get a photo of the critters in your root zone? a good USB 60x scope can be had pretty cheap I think

I'm worried about this. It seems hard to the entomologist I went to would misidentify the bug samples I brought. However, today I was examining some roots with a microscope and I saw three bugs. 1) Small fungus gnat larvae or large nematode 2) Milky "soil mite" 3) Only one actually on a root, tiny worm like nematode.

In addition, and perhaps most disturbing, there was a white speckled, clear substance caking some of the roots on the bottoms of the pots. "Honeydew?"

Here is what the "soil mites" look like: http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=159960&page=106

and:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x3NSMVPqIc

I think those links are ok to post if not mods please delete.

 

[max_well]

offgas test

Hey bro.. sorry you're still going through this uncertainty..
One thing that I'm pretty confident is that if your issue is truly caused by an off-gassing type of problem, then removing the plant from the room and placing it in a grow space where you are certain that is not an issue should result in relatively quick recovery (I would expect them to show improvement in a matter of a few days); setup a little grow tent with a 400w and air exchange and some test plants from your new room. If the problem stems from the bugs you see in your soil than plants will continue to go down hill.
Should be a pretty easy test.. good luck my man

 

[bongorilla]

plywood does off gas formaldehyde, maybe some others, not sure if it's toxic to plants.

I'd do Maxwell's test to be sure it's not environmental, if you find the same bugs as in that video, the only thing that would kill those is Met52.. those quickly grew immunity to any pesticide ever given. They destroyed 3 crops, all chopped down at around 30 days flower.

Met was used in coco after that, and now I've completed 3 successful grows (no pesticides) and am on the 4th. Hope they are not those bugs but my plants looked exactly like that when they had them:bug

good luck.

 

[Empire]

haha ok.

peace

 

[Resinable]

Hey bro.. sorry you're still going through this uncertainty..
One thing that I'm pretty confident is that if your issue is truly caused by an off-gassing type of problem, then removing the plant from the room and placing it in a grow space where you are certain that is not an issue should result in relatively quick recovery (I would expect them to show improvement in a matter of a few days); setup a little grow tent with a 400w and air exchange and some test plants from your new room. If the problem stems from the bugs you see in your soil than plants will continue to go down hill.
Should be a pretty easy test.. good luck my man

Thanks, Maxwell. Well, I put three plants outside about 12 days ago just as a test; no improvement, but with the cold and rainy weather it does not prove much. Two days ago, I installed a six inch exhaust and intake; today I'm putting in a ten inch Max fan. I don't have a good place to segregate and do the fresh air test but hopefully just venting the whole room will tell me if my problem is outgassing or bugs.

Bongerilla: Sorry to hear about your ruined grows; I'm surprised you said MET is working for you, I had a ton of MET going and it did not seem to help with these guys.

If anyone has any contact info for a plant pathologist or entomologist, maybe they could PM me? I'm wondering if the entomologist I consulted was correct about the bugs being soil mites but wrong about them being harmless?

 

[LittleAmsterdam]

CO2 Toxicity. It could have been from a single event when the burner went off too often or for too long.

The leaf burn from CO2 Toxicity doesn't show up for 24hours sometimes making it hard to pinpoint the cause.

If you're using a burner or any CO2 you really need a CO2 monitor to ensure your safety and CO2 levels. Look into the CO2 monitor from SenseLife.

 

[LittleAmsterdam]

You mentioned CO2 Burner(s). How many do you have? How are they controlled? and how often do you turn them on and for how long?

 

[Resinable]

CO2 Toxicity. It could have been from a single event when the burner went off too often or for too long.

The leaf burn from CO2 Toxicity doesn't show up for 24hours sometimes making it hard to pinpoint the cause.

If you're using a burner or any CO2 you really need a CO2 monitor to ensure your safety and CO2 levels. Look into the CO2 monitor from SenseLife.

I have a CO2 controller/moniter; I do not know what ppm would cause "CO2 toxicity" but since people run over 10000 ppm to kill bugs without harming plants it would have to be very high. My CO2 levels have not been nearly that high.

 

[LittleAmsterdam]

Which CO2 controller are you using? Maybe someone here can help you calibrate it. Plants don't need a lot of CO2. There's a sweet spot somewhere between 1,000PPM and 1,500PPM. There's also a lot of other factors; as always.

10,000PPM of CO2 + the heat that goes with it causes the stomata to close in efforts to conserve water. "The current condition puts the plant in deep trouble because the trapped water in the leaves starts heating up and leads to cellular destruction, from which the plant may never fully recover." Quote from favorite Hydro book.

Farmers don't fumigate with 10,000 of CO2 with plants in there. This is something you can do after harvest when the plants are gone.

I really like the SenseLife CO2 monitor. It gives me a digital read out of current CO2 levels. It will also help you to learn how long it takes your plants to use all that CO2 before the burner needs to go off again.

How are you pushing 10,000PPM when most controllers are set to 1,500PPM?

 

[Resinable]

Which CO2 controller are you using? Maybe someone here can help you calibrate it. Plants don't need a lot of CO2. There's a sweet spot somewhere between 1,000PPM and 1,500PPM. There's also a lot of other factors; as always.

10,000PPM of CO2 + the heat that goes with it causes the stomata to close in efforts to conserve water. "The current condition puts the plant in deep trouble because the trapped water in the leaves starts heating up and leads to cellular destruction, from which the plant may never fully recover." Quote from favorite Hydro book.

Farmers don't fumigate with 10,000 of CO2 with plants in there. This is something you can do after harvest when the plants are gone.

I really like the SenseLife CO2 monitor. It gives me a digital read out of current CO2 levels. It will also help you to learn how long it takes your plants to use all that CO2 before the burner needs to go off again.

How are you pushing 10,000PPM when most controllers are set to 1,500PPM?

^^^ I am using a sentinel controller. I don't need help calibrating it. If all other factors are dialed and plants are growing well I run my CO2 at 1000 ppm. My temps are fine regardless of how long my burners are on because I have ample AC. Farmers do run over 10000 ppms CO2 with plants in the room; I have not done it in this room but tried it in the past plants were fine.

I am glad you like your SenseLife controller; from your comments you seem to be not very knowledgable or experienced. You also do not seem to be reading this thread with much comprehension. If you have something positive to contribute that is fine but please do not post any more random bullshit on this thread.

 

[Capulator]

somehow a friend of mine killed some plants with CO2 FWIW. He had the little tube directed at a group of plants and no regulator. It wiped 5 of them out (the ones that were in the line of fire). It confused me as well, but I saw it with my own eyes...

They died.

 

[Resinable]

somehow a friend of mine killed some plants with CO2 FWIW. He had the little tube directed at a group of plants and no regulator. It wiped 5 of them out (the ones that were in the line of fire). It confused me as well, but I saw it with my own eyes...

They died.

That is interesting, Cap. I'm sure in some amounts and maybe pure CO2 kicking off a tank directly at a plant it can be detrimental. My point above is simply that is not what is happening with me; my burner has been off for at least ten days or so and even when it was on it was only set to 600 ppms. I am aware that high levels CO2 can damage a small plant or a plant not acclimated to it but I think it should be clear that is not the issue for me in this situation.

 

[LittleAmsterdam]

Mrs. Resin, I can read just fine and can see you're negative with every suggestion given. If you're such HOT shit, then why are you asking for our help!?!