Second attempt with Massive - now with less PK

[CookiesLikeWhoa]

Going to use this as a way for us to document the grow as well as seek advice as the grow goes.

Our last grow just got chopped and the new one has been cooking for a couple of weeks. Sadly I don’t have any pics from germination :/

The first picture the veg tent with some cuts from our last run. Next one is from last night. About 3 days in between the two.

What We're Running:
Grape Gas (CLTVTD Cut)
Gorilla Breath cut (Trustfall Cut)
Banana Splitz cut (Starfire Genetics, but of a plant we grew)
Lemon Cherry Gelato (Trustfall Cut)

5x In House Genetics Jelly Breath (Seeds)
3x Ethos Cookies R2 (Seeds)

I planted 5 of each. 2 of the Etho's Cookies lagged behind so I didn't include them. Tho...one is catching up pretty quickly. May add it later.

Grows going to end up in AutoPots. I have 3x Gorilla Grow 5x5's all set up the same. Each one has an HLG Scorpion Diablo with the ventilation provided by an AC Infinity T6/Carbon Filter. Each tent has 2x 3.9gal AutoPots and 2x 6.9gal APs.

They're all hooked up to the same 30Gal res.

Feed - 'The Recipe' + Microbes:
PowerSi: .6ml/gal
Jack's A: 3gr/gal
Epsom Salt: 1gr/gal
Great White: 2ml/gal
Hydroguard: 2ml/gal
Mr.Fulvic: 1ml/gal
Cal Nitrate: 2gr/gal

During transition going to add Massive @2.5ml/gal for two weeks. At week 4 or when ever the stretch ends, out goes PowerSI and Mr.Fulvic as well.

As the title says this is going to be the second time trying massive.

During our last run, someone may have over done it on the PK booster, and added some Purpinator as well as the massive. Yeah that was too much PK. No clue why I thought that would be amazing idea but it wasn't. At least with the Massive. Locked out the plants for a week during the stretch and had to flush them twice. Lesson learned. (Hopefully)

One last note, totally sold on using a live res. After trying to run a sterile res for 3 grow, never could do it again. We never had any issues other than one plant randomly offing itself, that manifested, but the res and lines would also fill with this brownish gunk. It didn't smell and didn't seem to do anything other than gum up everything. Since switching to adding microbes, the res and lines stayed almost spotless the entire run and the plants recovered super well after they were nuked with the PK. Sold me.

 

[CookiesLikeWhoa]

Next day update.

Day 30 of Veg for the seeds. The two bigger clones, Gorilla Breath and Grape Gas are more like 40 days of veg. The next biggest is the Lemon Cherry Gelato, and she's likely around 35 days, and the smallest clone, the Banana Splitz, around 30 days.

Wife did some training with the Gorilla Breath. She looks a little beat up, but she's got a TON of new growth.

Moved them to the tent that has a CO2 system set up. Decided to fuck around and find out with CO2. It's not a sealed environment, but a 20lb tank of CO2 lasted me a month in the summer, figure this should last a bit while longer since the exhaust fan almost never kicks on right now.

Gave them a foliar spray of Stacked and MrFulvic. They usually like that.
Watered at 1300PPM PH'ed at 5.9.

 

[CookiesLikeWhoa]

So following day.

Gorilla breath looking much happier.

Wife trained more of the ladies. LCG got topped and most of the seedlings got leaned over.

CO2 may or may not be doing things? The girls don't seem to mind it.

78F Degrees
67% RH
1100PPM CO2
200 PPFD
Watered again at 1300PPM.

 

[Trixie]

If you let your Co2 go unregulated it can create a toxic environment for your plants and yourself. A Co2 level of over 2000ppm can kill your plants, and levels higher than that can become unsafe for humans and animals to breathe.

 

[CookiesLikeWhoa]

It’s on a regulator set to 1100ppm.

And the flow is set to .25 cubic feet/hr. So even when it does kick on it’s not really shooting into the tent as much as it’s trickling in.

 

[CookiesLikeWhoa]

Another one!

During lights out they got a spray of Athena's IPM. Usually that ticks them off for a day, but they seemed to be pretty happy despite the spray.

Seedlings that got leaned over seemed to have recovered well. One of the IHG Jelly Breaths looks like they're going to have some powerful lateral branching. She's a bit more squat than the rest, but managing to keep herself very even.

The Grape Gas responded extremely well. Ton of explosive growth along her main branches.

After watching a Dr. Bugbee video we upped the CO2 to 1200PPM. Upped the light from 185-225 PPFD to 215-250 PPFD. So far everyone seems to be big happy. Gorilla Breath might be getting too much light, but it also could be because she's got so much growth going on. Looks a little droopier compared to the rest but otherwise seems healthy and happy.

Watered @1300PPM 6.1PH
79 Degrees F
68% RH
1200PPM CO2
~225 PPFD.

 

[Trixie]

Looks like you are off to a good start. Nice set up.

 

[Moe.Red]

A Co2 level of over 2000ppm can kill your plants,

This is simply not true. I don’t like calling people out like this but that is a falsehood.

Where did that come from?

 

[Moe.Red]

It’s on a regulator set to 1100ppm.

And the flow is set to .25 cubic feet/hr. So even when it does kick on it’s not really shooting into the tent as much as it’s trickling in.

1100 is a bit high for veg, not that it will hurt anything but it probably cannot all be used. But in full flower that number could be higher

Proper VPD is critical to maximizing co2 uptake. Got that all sorted?

 

[CookiesLikeWhoa]

Depending on the calculator it's somewhere in between .6kPa and .7kPa, which is right on the money yeah?

Leaf Temp Delta is 3-4 degrees since the light is at the top of the tent.

Room Temp: 78
RH: 68%
Leaf Temp 74

VPD Calc app has the VPD at .68kPa, this one has it at .64kPa.

Looking around on the intawebz doesn't seem to yield different VPD's for CO2. So if this is off please advise! lol.

 

[CookiesLikeWhoa]

Yay for another photo dump.

Everyone seemed to take the increased PPFD well.

The only outlier is the Gorilla Breath. Big girl is looking droopy. She has a ton of new growth, but still the droopiness.

The Banana Splitz clone is still lagging behind a bit. Kinda okay with that because she's a stretcher in pre-flower.

Temp: 79F
RH: 68%
CO2: 1200PPM
PH: 6.2
Water: 1300PPM

 

[deerock]

If you let your Co2 go unregulated it can create a toxic environment for your plants and yourself. A Co2 level of over 2000ppm can kill your plants, and levels higher than that can become unsafe for humans and animals to breathe.

What are the symptoms of different levels of exposure?

5,000 ppm (0.5%) OSHA Permissible Exposure Limit (PEL) and ACGIH Threshold Limit Value (TLV) for 8-hour exposure ESHG-Health-02.00 FSIS Environmental, Safety and Health Group Carbon Dioxide Health Hazard Information Sheet

10,000 ppm (1.0%) Typically no effects, possible drowsiness

15,000 ppm (1.5%) Mild respiratory stimulation for some people

30,000 ppm (3.0%) Moderate respiratory stimulation, increased heart rate and blood pressure, ACGIH TLV-Short Term

40,000 ppm (4.0%) Immediately Dangerous to Life or Health (IDLH) 50,000 ppm (5.0%) Strong respiratory stimulation, dizziness, confusion, headache, shortness of breath

80,000 ppm (8.0%) Dimmed sight, sweating, tremor, unconsciousness, and possible death

Source: FSIS Environmental, Safety and Health Group https://www.fsis.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media_file/2020-08/Carbon-Dioxide.pdf

 

[Aqua Man]

Not sure if its been said but with massive you want to run veg ratios if nutrients and add the massive. Massive is the PK boost and contains triacontanol which is a natural PGR.

if you run bloom ratios and add massive you will be far to heavy on PK and far to lean on N

 

[CookiesLikeWhoa]

Not sure if its been said but with massive you want to run veg ratios if nutrients and add the massive. Massive is the PK boost and contains triacontanol which is a natural PGR.

if you run bloom ratios and add massive you will be far to heavy on PK and far to lean on N

Veg is the same for us. Just running straight through with Jack's 3-2-1 + PowerSi + MrFulvic + Microbes.

During the flip was panning to run Jack's at 70%:
Jack's A: 2.6
Cal-Nitrate: 1.7
Epsom: .7

Add the microbes at normal dose and then add Massive at 50% (2.5ml/gal).

 

[Dr.Green55]

Veg is the same for us. Just running straight through with Jack's 3-2-1 + PowerSi + MrFulvic + Microbes.

During the flip was panning to run Jack's at 70%:
Jack's A: 2.6
Cal-Nitrate: 1.7
Epsom: .7

Add the microbes at normal dose and then add Massive at 50% (2.5ml/gal).

Have you run your numbers through hydrobuddy? if not it may help just to see what they are, the N in the mix should match or come close to your lighting output without going over, If I remember right 321 is low in Ca so I think it would be good to know Ca with Cal- Nitrate at 1.7, going into flip your going to want a Ca boost, if you don't have it or enough, massive isn't going to matter,in any positive way, the Ca- K will be out of wack and possible N-K., thats probably what happened last grow to much k locked out Ca, and as long as your running enough micros P should be ok, also don't forget about Mg as important as the Ca-K is K-Ca -Mg is just as much so when you add the massive make sure there is enough Mg to keep up. but remember numbers are just numbers your room/ environment will dictate the amount and ratio's your plants want.

I wouldn't drop the fulvic I'd run it to the end. and last grow if you had brownish gunk you must have been running your fulvic or something else with it, you can't mix the 2, if sterile you have to foliar spray fulvic etc. but if live is working and you like it thats the way to go.

 

[CookiesLikeWhoa]

Haven't run anything through Hydrobuddy yet. We'll give it a go today and see what it says.

We were thinking about just running Jack's at the normal amount of only running 1ml/gal or less of Massive this run to see how things are going. But Hydrobuddy first. Glanced at it and it seems like it could be really helpful.

We've already been having Ca issues when flipping running this iteration of Jack's, as is. Was contemplating adding more tap water to our mix since the water here is coming in at 300+PPM. Water Report Water has about .096gr/Gal of Ca in it. Was advised it might not be able to the plants, so we're looking for something else.

 

[Aqua Man]

Have you run your numbers through hydrobuddy? if not it may help just to see what they are, the N in the mix should match or come close to your lighting output without going over, If I remember right 321 is low in Ca so I think it would be good to know Ca with Cal- Nitrate at 1.7, going into flip your going to want a Ca boost, if you don't have it or enough, massive isn't going to matter,in any positive way, the Ca- K will be out of wack and possible N-K., thats probably what happened last grow to much k locked out Ca, and as long as your running enough micros P should be ok, also don't forget about Mg as important as the Ca-K is K-Ca -Mg is just as much so when you add the massive make sure there is enough Mg to keep up. but remember numbers are just numbers your room/ environment will dictate the amount and ratio's your plants want.

I wouldn't drop the fulvic I'd run it to the end. and last grow if you had brownish gunk you must have been running your fulvic or something else with it, you can't mix the 2, if sterile you have to foliar spray fulvic etc. but if live is working and you like it thats the way to go.

This is the man to listen to very closely

 

[Aqua Man]

Haven't run anything through Hydrobuddy yet. We'll give it a go today and see what it says.

We were thinking about just running Jack's at the normal amount of only running 1ml/gal or less of Massive this run to see how things are going. But Hydrobuddy first. Glanced at it and it seems like it could be really helpful.

We've already been having Ca issues when flipping running this iteration of Jack's, as is. Was contemplating adding more tap water to our mix since the water here is coming in at 300+PPM. Water Report Water has about .096gr/Gal of Ca in it. Was advised it might not be able to the plants, so we're looking for something else.

Imo you will need more cal and N so cal nit fits the bill if i hazard a guess id say closer to equal parts micro and cal nit if running massive and atleast 1 of mag sulphate but thats a blind guess without using hydro buddy. @Dr.Green55 is the giy to listen too though.

 

[CookiesLikeWhoa]

Uploaded a couple of screen shots from Hydrobuddy. First one w/o Massive, second with it.

So closet thing I could find that gave a PPM break down of each substance was a couple of charts BillFarthing had in his thread.

According to those charts, the mix should have:
Ca: ~250PPM
Mg: ~55PPM
S: ~40PPM
N: ~225PPM
P: ~125PPM
K:~200PPM

Some we are close, others not even close. Are there particular ratio's that we should be aiming for?

 

[Observationist]

Have you run your numbers through hydrobuddy? if not it may help just to see what they are, the N in the mix should match or come close to your lighting output without going over, If I remember right 321 is low in Ca so I think it would be good to know Ca with Cal- Nitrate at 1.7, going into flip your going to want a Ca boost, if you don't have it or enough, massive isn't going to matter,in any positive way, the Ca- K will be out of wack and possible N-K., thats probably what happened last grow to much k locked out Ca, and as long as your running enough micros P should be ok, also don't forget about Mg as important as the Ca-K is K-Ca -Mg is just as much so when you add the massive make sure there is enough Mg to keep up. but remember numbers are just numbers your room/ environment will dictate the amount and ratio's your plants want.

I wouldn't drop the fulvic I'd run it to the end. and last grow if you had brownish gunk you must have been running your fulvic or something else with it, you can't mix the 2, if sterile you have to foliar spray fulvic etc. but if live is working and you like it thats the way to go.

Don't root feed fulvic in sterile?