Second attempt with Massive - now with less PK

Bluebuddha · Jan 31, 2023

I was thinking of throwing some K2SO4 along with Jack's 321. Unfortunately I can't get hydrobuddy to run. I look forward to the conclusion.

Aqua Man · Jan 31, 2023

CookiesLikeWhoa said:
Uploaded a couple of screen shots from Hydrobuddy. First one w/o Massive, second with it.

So closet thing I could find that gave a PPM break down of each substance was a couple of charts BillFarthing had in his thread.

According to those charts, the mix should have:
Ca: ~250PPM
Mg: ~55PPM
S: ~40PPM
N: ~225PPM
P: ~125PPM
K:~200PPM

Some we are close, others not even close. Are there particular ratio's that we should be aiming for?

Looks decent to me other than more mag sulphate imo and dilution to bring those numbers to about almost half. But i would wait to hear what @Dr.Green55 says.

Aqua Man · Jan 31, 2023

Bluebuddha said:
I was thinking of throwing some K2SO4 along with Jack's 321. Unfortunately I can't get hydrobuddy to run. I look forward to the conclusion.

Good option in mid to late flower when K demands increase and sulphur is more important

Dr.Green55 · Jan 31, 2023

CookiesLikeWhoa said:
Uploaded a couple of screen shots from Hydrobuddy. First one w/o Massive, second with it.

So closet thing I could find that gave a PPM break down of each substance was a couple of charts BillFarthing had in his thread.

According to those charts, the mix should have:

Some we are close, others not even close. Are there particular ratio's that we should be aiming for?

Ok I see the charts with and without massive, but you have these listed Ca: ~250PPM Mg: ~55PPM S: ~40PPM N: ~225PPM P: ~125PPM
K:~200PPM, maybe I missed something but where are you getting those from is that with your tap water or something. so are thesee your actual numbers that you will be running or whats in the charts?

CookiesLikeWhoa · Jan 31, 2023

Sorry those numbers were targets that were in BillFarthing’s thread ‘ballin on a budget - the recipe’ page 14 had. We had the numbers from
Hydrobuddy but didn’t know what is good and what is bad.

The screen shots are what we are actually running according to Hydrobuddy.

Hopefully that clears things up.

CookiesLikeWhoa · Jan 31, 2023

These are the ones. Was on mobile earlier, easier to post from the desktop.

Dr.Green55 · Jan 31, 2023

CookiesLikeWhoa said:
Sorry those numbers were targets that were in BillFarthing’s thread ‘ballin on a budget - the recipe’ page 14 had. We had the numbers from
Hydrobuddy but didn’t know what is good and what is bad.

The screen shots are what we are actually running according to Hydrobuddy.

Hopefully that clears things up.

yes it does lol, there might be a bit of confusion with those charts, I think they were done by Advanced nutrient and their products, but there not really the values you want to hit in your solution.

Here are my thoughts if your looking for a mix the whole way through.

It looks like your running good lighting, for me the N will work but I think its a hair low, I'd shoot for 135 -140 ppm. depending on environment etc you can probably still bump up from there.

Ca for me is far to low, its the trucker of all nutrients, the engine/life of your plant. I wouldn't want to be less then 150, but really 160 to 180.

that leaves K at 172-188 in your charts, K can run equal to or less then Ca but its not ideal, you can make a grow out of it but it is what it is, not ideal
In veg K :N of 1.5 to 1 is ok the K demand isn't that great, but for flower i'd look for at least a 2:1 ratio so if you run 135 N i'd look for a 270 K when you add massive, 250 will probably still be ok

P at 43 to 48 is on the lower end 55-65 I think would be better

Mg should fall in somewhere 2.5-3 Ca to 1 Mg

I'd bring the micro mix up until your Fe is about 3, that will also give you a bump in Mn Zu and B

Remember numbers are numbers and solutions really have to be dialed into your room and environment by reading your plant, leaf sample etc. what works and is ideal for you will not be for someone else.
For N look for leaf tip burn, color, claw etc
For K ideally in veg start out with K a bit above the Ca add 10ppm of K every week until you see your new leaf growth be narrow in growth and pale or yellowing back off 10ppm and your good. For reference in veg 140 N 180Ca 230K is a pretty good place to start out generally speaking
just watch overall growth rates, purpleing and the numbers of fingers on leaves, shoot for a minimum of 7. that will tell you when its happy with the N to K ratio But remember your environment plays a very big part in ratio's and uptake especially between k-Ca and Mg when your trying to balance a diffusion Ion (K) with mass flow ions (Ca,Mg) your environment will weigh heavy into that. VPD very important, that will play a big part in the end product, if your running a higher VPD you'll need a higher Ca to k ratio. some basics but I hope they help

CookiesLikeWhoa · Jan 31, 2023

THANK YOU!!! That will help so much with all of this.

Playing around with Hydrobuddy right now and see why Jack's recommends 3.7gr part A and 2.5gr Cal-Nit. Also see why people say that the Mag-Sulfate isn't needed.

For sure need a better source of Ca. Our tap is pretty hard, going to see if we can't include that in it and see what needs to be added.

Edit: Think some Calcium Sulfate actually might do the trick. 1gr/gal looks like this.

Dr.Green55 · Jan 31, 2023

I think I saw in here somewhere your tap water is 300ppm? if so I understand you have to use what you have, but I would really really try to find another source, because I know it has stuff in it you do not want, Ions that will displace the Ions in your solution and be taken up first. It will really play havoc with your solution.

CookiesLikeWhoa · Feb 1, 2023

Yeah been told that using extra tap water isn't the best idea. The Cal-Sulfate looks like a better fit and seems to get Ca right where it needs to be with only 1gr/gal.

CookiesLikeWhoa · Feb 2, 2023

Been a couple of days.

We transplanted them into their permanent pots. They aren't in their permanent spots yet. Still have a tent that's drying out the last run.

Most of them got a hair cut to help expose the lower growth to light.

They're looking annoyed. Assuming the transplant didn't really make them much happier, but they had filled out the 1gal pots about as much as they could.

4 weeks till we flip.

Temp: 75F
RH: 60%
CO2: 1200PPM
Light: 200 PPFD
Water: 1650PPM
PH: 5.9

Used a new mix of water, the one made in hydrobuddy above. Should have a decent amount more of Ca and N. Hopefully they like it.

Dr.Green55 · Feb 2, 2023

200 PPFD is on the low end, try balancing the light C02 and ppm a little more efficiently, Transplanting your plants can disrupt them a bit, giving them a hair cut at the same time is adding insult to injury, it disrupts the whole plants mojo, light , water uptake brix etc. IMO any cutting of the plant should be done very sparingly,far more down side then upside

CookiesLikeWhoa · Feb 2, 2023

Followed the good doctor’s advice and turned the light up.

Even with the clones still looking droopy, it's the best they've looked in 4 days. All the sights have visible vertical growth. The Banana Splitz and Lemmon Cherry Gelato are looking great too.

The seeds look very happy a ton of new growth across the board. It's not the best angle but the front left one grew 2 inches.

Temp: 80F
RH: 59%
Light: ~415PPFD
CO2: 1200PPM

No need to water, they are still quite heavy. Though, did use the new formula water on our little 2x4 veg tent and all those ladies exploded with growth, Needless to say @Dr.Green55 killed it with the advice.

CookiesLikeWhoa · Feb 7, 2023

So been a few days since the last update.

The ladies have been moved to their permanent homes. They're being top watered every other day right now. System won't be on for a couple of weeks.

First picture is the Etho's Cookies R2 and a lone IHG Jelly Breath in the lower right corner. They're recovering as well as they can from the great hair cut :(

Second picture is the IHG Jelly Breaths. They've recovered very well and are growing a couple inches a day now.

Finally the clone tent. Everyone has adjusted well except the Gorilla Breath. She just looks miserable. Her leaves look beat to crap. We accidently watered at a Ph of 5.0. Don't ask why. It's even written in the notes that the water Ph'ed at 5.0. Giant brain fart. Assuming that's not helping her at all either. Outside of that she just appears over watered. Which seems odd since it's 50/50 perlite/coco. But it seems a longer dry back period is needed. Not looking good for an AP run :/

CookiesLikeWhoa · Feb 9, 2023

Kind of a photo dump, mostly an update.

So every tent has another plant in it. We had some clones going for the homie and well he changed his mind. Wife wanted to run them so there they are. Another Grape Gas, Lemon Cherry Gelato, and one of our pheno hunted Slurricanes.

Everyone has pretty much rebounded. Even with the Gorilla breath, and the Grape Gas looking like they've seen better days, their new growth is looking great. The Slurricane in the middle has always been a strong grower. The Banana Splitz in the lower right is keeping a very even canopy, hope she catches up. The Lemon Cherry Gelato in the lower left looks like she had some PH shock from the 5.0 watering, but her new growth is loving life.

The Etho's tent is starting to rebound nicely. The one girl that got the most savage haircut is clawing her way back. The lone Jelly breath is looking fantastic.

The IHG tent is looking the best. All of them are dialed in.

Systems not on.

The water has been updated to reflect the Hydrobuddy Screen shot that appears somewhere...Watered them. About 6 gallons of water was used between the lot. They're really going to drink in flower...

Temp: 78
RH: 55%
Light: 500 PPFD
CO2: 0PPM
Water: 1450PPM
PH: 5.9

CookiesLikeWhoa · Feb 13, 2023

Sooooo.

Thursday, 2/16 we turned the system on.

Check the system Friday. Plants look great, all the pots are wet. Things are great. We are going to leave for a weekend trip to the in-laws and need to refill the res.

Well during that process we shut the main water off since we are dumping batches of 4 gallons of water to fill it up then the concentrated feed water. Well forgot to turn that back on before we left and...

Ooof. They're recovering well, but yeah, three days without the juice was a bit much. The 7gallon ladies faired the best.

With the light turned up to 500 PPFD the tents were getting warmer, up to around 83F. We started to notice some leaves tacoing. Think between the extra light + heat + Low RH (53%) it was a bit much. Backed the light off a tad to drop the temps a bit, and raised the RH to 60%.

Temps: 81F
RH: 60%
PPFD: 450
Water: 1450PPM
PH: 5.5
CO2: 0PPM

That grape gas in the middle of the IHG ladies is a monster...she's going to be a freak in a few weeks.

anonymousdial · Feb 13, 2023

My last run I used jacks 321(no silica or fulvic) and massive for about 3 weeks into flower. I had a great run but alot of my buds had the strange growth I think massive contributes. After alot of debate I've decided to go with the Ballin on a budget recipe no massive for this grow.
I'm definitely interested to follow this post and see your progress as I'm still torn on my decision.

CookiesLikeWhoa · Feb 17, 2023

2 weeks away from flip.

Everything is chugging along. The clone tent with the older Gorilla Breath and Grape Gas are finally starting to come around. Been two weeks...Sheesh.

Everyone is looking pretty good. Only thing that still looks a little down is the two IHG Jelly breaths in the 3g AP's. They looking really droopy.

Temps: 75F
RH: 60%
PPFD: 450
Water: 1450 PPM
PH: 6.3
Res Temp: 75F

CookiesLikeWhoa · Feb 20, 2023

So deciding if we want to flip a week early as they’re getting pretty big. There is a trellis net installed at about the 5 foot mark in each tent.

Few the gals are looking a little droopy, but still growing around an inch to two a day. The one cookies that was trimmed young is still sooo small. She'll prolly grow straight up in flower.

Temp: 78F
RH: 57%
PPFD: 450
Water: 1450PPM
PH: 6.4
CO2: 0PPM

Somewhere in there is a picture of the current breakdown on the Water. Few things aren't listed that are used:
Orca: 2ml/gal
Mr. Fulvic: 1ml/gal
SLF-100: 2.5ml/gal

Res smells like wet earth, and is completely clear.

Dirtbag · Feb 20, 2023

Good advice here. If I can add one thing, it's be careful, titrate the dose of massive up slowly, carefully and use the least amount possible. And cut it out by week 6 of flower.
I've used it a lot and it's great stuff, but it WILL stretch out the internode spacing and if your genetics are prone to herming, they will. (Cough "ethos" Cough...)
Even if not prone to herming it can cause bananas. Gibberellins and Tria are awesome in small to moderate doses at the right time. Wreaks havoc if you use too much at the wrong time.

Second attempt with Massive - now with less PK

Second attempt with Massive - now with less PK

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Second attempt with Massive - now with less PK

Second attempt with Massive - now with less PK

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