Silicic Acid

[NightsWatch]

You here the old story Piss on it ???

http://vaccinepapers.org/wp-content...in-man-and-effects-on-aluminium-excretion.pdf

 

[jsquared89]

So, I've been trying to learn more about silica and stuff recently. So, thanks for this thread. I posted this on another forum too, but figured I would create an account here to so see what you guys say.

The products I know for silica are as follows:
Potassium Silicate:
AgSil16H
Pro-Tekt

Silicic Acid or Orthosilicic acid or Monosilicic acid. AFAIK, they are all names for the same thing. At least, according to Wikipedia, they are.
OSA28
Fasilitor
MonoSilicic Acid from Bromley Ag

My understanding of potassium silicate products like Agsil or Pro-Tekt is that they don't work at all in low pHs. So, using them in a stock solution is out of the question. And then there's the obvious part of having to add potassium when you want silica. It makes getting 50ppm of silica in my feed solutions really hard it seems. I've been using HydroBuddy to try and figure it out for my veg formula and every time my potassium levels are way too high. I bought 1 lb of AgSil16H from MBFerts.com to try it, and honestly, I'm not happy about it. My potassium levels are too high when I use it, so, to get a reasonable amount of potassium, I have to drop my nitrogen levels since I have to eliminate potassium nitrate from my mix.

But using silicic acid products is generally okay to use in stock solutions. The label on Bromley Ag's MonoSilicic Acid says it can be used in stock solutions down to pH 3. There's also the benefit of there not being anything else in monosilicic acid. It's just supposed to be a source of silica. However, looking closer at Fasilitor, there's more than just silica in it. The downside is, these are all really expensive. It seems Bromley Ag's stuff is cheapest, but still, not cheap like AgSil.

 

[Hashbrick]

Yeah, after looking around I decided to buy the Silicic from Bromley AG. The price was so much better, and its more concentrated and it doesn't have anything extra like Fasilitor.

Where did you get 50ppm from as your target? From others I've heard 15ppm is as high as you want to go.

 

[oscar169]

So, I've been trying to learn more about silica and stuff recently. So, thanks for this thread. I posted this on another forum too, but figured I would create an account here to so see what you guys say.

The products I know for silica are as follows:
Potassium Silicate:
AgSil16H
Pro-Tekt

Silicic Acid or Orthosilicic acid or Monosilicic acid. AFAIK, they are all names for the same thing. At least, according to Wikipedia, they are.
OSA28
Fasilitor
MonoSilicic Acid from Bromley Ag

My understanding of potassium silicate products like Agsil or Pro-Tekt is that they don't work at all in low pHs. So, using them in a stock solution is out of the question. And then there's the obvious part of having to add potassium when you want silica. It makes getting 50ppm of silica in my feed solutions really hard it seems. I've been using HydroBuddy to try and figure it out for my veg formula and every time my potassium levels are way too high. I bought 1 lb of AgSil16H from MBFerts.com to try it, and honestly, I'm not happy about it. My potassium levels are too high when I use it, so, to get a reasonable amount of potassium, I have to drop my nitrogen levels since I have to eliminate potassium nitrate from my mix.

But using silicic acid products is generally okay to use in stock solutions. The label on Bromley Ag's MonoSilicic Acid says it can be used in stock solutions down to pH 3. There's also the benefit of there not being anything else in monosilicic acid. It's just supposed to be a source of silica. However, looking closer at Fasilitor, there's more than just silica in it. The downside is, these are all really expensive. It seems Bromley Ag's stuff is cheapest, but still, not cheap like AgSil.

No where on Wikipedia does it say anything about the stuff you mentioned above that I can find and this whole thing about Bromley Ag seems to be a sales pitch. ?

 

[jsquared89]

No where on Wikipedia does it say anything about the stuff you mentioned above that I can find and this whole thing about Bromley Ag seems to be a sales pitch. ?

The Wiki for "Silicic Acid" lists "other names" on the right side where it says Orthosilicic and monosilicic acid.

Also, I'm not so sure why it seems like a sales pitch to you. Bromley Ag doesn't even list this stuff for sale on their website. Hell, they don't even say they make it on their website. Someone from Reddit told me about them for a completely different reason and I asked them about silica and they told me silicic acid. And now we're here. I'm trying to get an honest opinion on it as I've barely used anything silica related.

Yeah, after looking around I decided to buy the Silicic from Bromley AG. The price was so much better, and its more concentrated and it doesn't have anything extra like Fasilitor.

Where did you get 50ppm from as your target? From others I've heard 15ppm is as high as you want to go.

A friend of mine that grows ornamentals in a greenhouse told me 50 ppm was as high as I should go. So, that's what I've been doing. It's worked fine with AgSil in the past. Unless all the silica doesn't dissolve with AgSil, which might make sense in the acid solutions I use.

 

[oscar169]

The Wiki for "Silicic Acid" lists "other names" on the right side where it says Orthosilicic and monosilicic acid.

Also, I'm not so sure why it seems like a sales pitch to you. Bromley Ag doesn't even list this stuff for sale on their website. Hell, they don't even say they make it on their website. Someone from Reddit told me about them for a completely different reason and I asked them about silica and they told me silicic acid. And now we're here. I'm trying to get an honest opinion on it as I've barely used anything silica related.



A friend of mine that grows ornamentals in a greenhouse told me 50 ppm was as high as I should go. So, that's what I've been doing. It's worked fine with AgSil in the past. Unless all the silica doesn't dissolve with AgSil, which might make sense in the acid solutions I use.

Where are you getting the 50ppm are you talking 50 ppm of silica or 50 ppm of the water readings after the silica is added, If so Starting with 1-2ppm RO water and then adding the Agsil 16 H @ 2.5mL to gallon from the 1 gallons stock mix as talked about in earlier post then the Rez Water comes up to 40ppm so thats 38ppm the Agisil 16H has raised it and this is on the 500 Scale on the Blue Lab Combo Meter.
If you are talking about the PPM like in Custom Nutrient Calculator or Hydro Buddy both similar programs per the 50lB page witch has 0-0-32 Soluble Potash (k2O........32.0% on the bag.
Derived from Potassium Silicate.

 

[jsquared89]

Where are you getting the 50ppm are you talking 50 ppm of silica or 50 ppm of the water readings after the silica is added, If so Starting with 1-2ppm RO water and then adding the Agsil 16 H @ 2.5mL to gallon from the 1 gallons stock mix as talked about in earlier post then the Rez Water comes up to 40ppm so thats 38ppm the Agisil 16H has raised it and this is on the 500 Scale on the Blue Lab Combo Meter.
If you are talking about the PPM like in Custom Nutrient Calculator or Hydro Buddy both similar programs per the 50lB page witch has 0-0-32 Soluble Potash (k2O........32.0% on the bag.
Derived from Potassium Silicate.

I do not make decisions based on water readings from an EC meter after I put stuff in water. So, it's a real number and not an interpolated number based on a reading.

If we were to compare:
AgSil16H, which is 52.8% SiO2 and 26.9% K (32.4% K2O), I would add 94.7 mg/L to get 50 ppm of SiO2. This would also add 25.5 ppm K. Total dissolved solids added to solution = 75.5 ppm.
AgSil21, which is 26.5% SiO2 and 10.5% K (12.4% K2O), I would add 188.7 mg/L (0.137 mL/L) to get 50 ppm SiO2. This would also add 19.8 ppm K. Total dissolved solids added to solution = 69.8 ppm.
BromleyAg Monosilicic acid, which is 28% silica, I would add 178.6 mg/L (0.155 mL/L) to get 50 ppm SiO2. Total dissolved solids added to solution = 50 ppm.

Now, in regards to the mix shown earlier in the thread. 148g/L of AgSil16H. This will create a solution that is 78,144 ppm SiO2 and 39,812 ppm K. So, the Weight/Volume % is 7.8% SiO2, not to be confused with liquid products like AgSil21 or BromleyAg's Monosilicic Acid which are listed as a Weight/Weight%, as is the case for all fertilizers regardless whether they are liquids or solids. Right, so, we have a 78,144 ppm solution of SiO2. To get down to 50 ppm SiO2, we divide 50/78,144 and then multiply that by 3785 mL/gal to get 2.42 mL/gal concentration. Total added solids = 75.5 ppm. Feel free to use this dilution calculator to double check my work: http://www.endmemo.com/bio/dilution.php

2.5mL/gal should give you 51.6 ppm SiO2 and 26.3 ppm K for total added solids 77.9 ppm.

 

[oscar169]

2.5mL or less is what I have been running At, My mother plants get 2mL to gallon and they look great.

 

[Pimples]

Anyone using Sodium Silicate?

Yes. A free sample bottle of the Cutting Edge Solutions brand. Forget the name. One ml. per gallon of my tap. Mixed first before anything else. I usually use Europonic Silica. ...but this was free from The Cup and it lasts forever at a ml a gallon. Works as good as potassium silicate. Strong thick branches with fat "knuckles" at the nodes and thick turgid leaves and petioles. I definitely notice a difference without a silica additive. Used it with and without for years. Its not essential but i like what it does. Back in the day...Dynagro Protekt was all there was really. The only additive for years. I like a silica in my tanks and feed mixes.

 

[Quantrill]

Yeah, after looking around I decided to buy the Silicic from Bromley AG. The price was so much better, and its more concentrated and it doesn't have anything extra like Fasilitor.

@Hashbrick @jsquared89 @MrBlah

That SST 28% looks like diatomaceous earth and phosphoric acid in water to me. I wouldn't waste my money on it.

 

[jsquared89]

Ya know, I've been thinking about this whole "Plant available silicon" thing for a while and how it relates to usable silicon in a feed solution. And TBH, I don't think it really matters. The way chemistry works is pretty simple. If there's 50 ppm of SiO2 in solution, there's 50 ppm that plant can use. At that low concentration, 100% of the SiO2 is actually in the form of monosilicic acid, H4SiO4 regardless what else is in your feed solution. The plant can use that as is.

Generally speaking, using something like Bromley Ag/SST or Agsil is going to depend on how you've prepared your fertigation program. You may be in a position to just need to add silica as you may have a feed solution that is well proven, but without silica. So, you add Bromley Ag/SST to one of your stock solutions. Or you revisit it entirely and rebuild it with the potassium from Agsil products in place such that you don't overdose on potassium. Additionally, you may want to reduce the amount of stock solutions you use, so Bromley Ag/SST will suit you to achieve that as well.

The Bromley Ag brand and SST both seem to be the same, based on what you've shown me. The big difference between them and diatomaceous earth is that it's actually miscible.

Generally, it's about what your goals are as a horticulturalist as well as what you have in place already.

 

[One drop]

Salicylic acid is good stuff. A homie uses aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid) instead of the overpriced hydro store stuff. I think willow is what you're looking for if looking for the organic source.

Yep I was just about to chime in yes willow is a great organic sorce and aspirin work great as well I use a native tree here to derive it from I can get willow but I get bitten by mosquitoes when I'm near those trees so I use a Casurina or comon name She Oak .

 

[Pimples]

Does yield and quAlity bump up that much as to justify going through the trouble and expense of sourcing and acquiring silicyc acid? I havent used the adadditive but once when i got a free sample of Aptus Facilitor and Start Boost awhile back. My rooms are prettt spot on. Expensive but damn near perfect closed environment. I didnt notice much of a difference in final total dry weight and quality. I did feed a slightly lower base nutrient....the plants took up nutrient much better...but thats about it. It didnt translate into anything dramatic and game changing. Not at all. Actually theres only a couple of additives that actually have for me. And one of them is a weekly foliar spray in veg of kelp extract and fulvic acid.

 

[Quantrill]

I highly recommend the book Silicon in Agriculture, From Theory to Practice, Authors: Liang, Y., Nikolic, M., Bélanger, R., Gong, H., Song, A.

IMHO. It is easily tens times more informative than Silicon Solutions, by Edward Bent.

 

[mesquite]

Hi there Quantrill. I really appreciate all the great research that you took the tine to do and, more importantly, share with the world. Man, talk about stoners helping stoners get other stoners stoned.

I'm sure you've checked this ine out, but I thought it was a fun read in that it tells a story about how we (agriculture/horticulture) get some if our products. Perhaps more than just some. Many ferts are "waste" material.

For those sold on organic culture, it might be more healthy or conscious to be aware of the heavey metals content if various inputs. OG composts can be loaded with metals and residual pesticides. One such problem cropped up in manures and composts that were causeing twisty leaf issues that would have a guy believing his broad mites were infentismally small or stem nematodes had developed a new cloaking technology. :).

Clopyralid-The real 'cause of dudding (just kidding, i have no idea what all thise poor folks had, one more terrifing possibility)

"Dudding"-calling folks you don't know "dude"

Here's that pdf i almost forgot to post. :)


https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/Pot sil supplement.pdf

 

[mesquite]

Oh, and while i might have your attentionabout this topic, i remember reading a study (i gotta look this one up, its burried) where a researcher determined that soil amended with wollastonite showed the highest Si uptake? Maybe i gotta grab that source doc.

I tried that "Montana Grow" product 'cause i have a tub of it, but it didn't seem to do "that Si thang". Any thoughts on that one?

 

[Quantrill]

Extractable Si soil test levels was done using the acetic acid process, were Si increased by more than tenfold over unamended soil by the CaMgSilicate and Wollastonite amendments. Glacial rock flour and wood ash increased extractable Si levels to a lesser extent. Other amendments exhibited little impact of on soil test extractable Si. Most surprisingly, Montana grow that is marketed as a Si soil amendment had very little impact on Si soil test level.
.....................................................
The one OMRI listed product in this study, Montana Grow, might superficially appeal to organic growers. Although it may have other merits not discovered in this study, Montana Grow was not shown to be effective as a source of plant available Si. Nor was it shown to be useful as a liming material.

 

[mesquite]

Thanks man. That seemed to be what i saw from the plant morphology. No thick stems, no thick leaves. To anyone reading this, i don't want to blackball what may be a great product, i might not have used it correctly or enough.

 

[Hookah79]

I mix a full gallon at a time and use it with a few months but I don't know how long self life is should be good for year if it's in airtight jug, if your worried just use the smaller batch size. about the falling out I shake the bottle far about a minute to mix and then pour out and add to rez before adding anything else never had any falling out.

I am using tap water,so if i make a stock solution from distilled water,then dump it first into my tap watered rez, will i have issues since the tap has cal/mag etc??.

 

[oscar169]

I am using tap water,so if i make a stock solution from distilled water,then dump it first into my tap watered rez, will i have issues since the tap has cal/mag etc??.

There shouldn't be any problems but lest ask the expert on it @Quantrill What you think ?