Spider Mite, Root Aphids And Pesticides

[Dirtbag]

Interesting about the sulfur. I may have to redesign my vegging area so I can utilize it. Especially if it only needs to be done once a week. I could tent it somehow. How long does it need to burn exactly?
Ultimately I’d like to move my grow areas to my separate garage, etc but due to the climate here, there is still a lot of work to be done sealing and insulating it to be useable throughout the year.
I agree chemicals should not be the ultimate preventative answer. Also bombing or “wiping out” a room to where it has NO bugs is pretty much impossible. Bugs are resilient and can hide in the tiniest of places and survive the cleaning and sterilizing, etc.

Once these plants are done and it is a starting over point hopefully I can just add some Stratiolaelaps and Fallacis and they can keep things under control without the use of chemicals. But I do like the idea of adding in sulfur as well cuz I have dealt with PM in the past as well.

Burn time and frequency depends on a few factors, if its preventative, curative, room area etc. I have an 8x8 with 9' average ceiling so I burn for 2 hrs, once a week. You just want to burn long enough to get a slight fog in the room.

If you are trying to solve PM or mites with a new burner I recommend longer though. I would do something like a 4 hr burn, followed by daily 1 hr burns for a week for curative rates.

And yeah... Nukes. There isnt really a commercial "one thing that kills all" out there anyway. So it's best to use none of it unless you need it. Keep a keen eye, inspect plants often, know the signs of their damage, use lots of sticky traps etc etc..

 

[Greengrower8]

I’ve decided to treat a few of my plants with Promis to see if it will help with my root aphid problem. In my DWC set up I’m not sure how I should apply the Promis to it.

How much Promis per gallon should I apply to each reservoir?
Is 1 application enough or should it be repeated and at what interval?
How long before harvest can Promis be applied? I’ve read at least 21 days, but that’s usually a warning that applies for thick skinned produce not flowers that are smoked.

My plan was to take the appropriate amount of Promis required per reservoir (X) and mix it with some water. Then pour that solution through the hydroton, drenching the stuff in the basket and then draining into the reservoir. Then flushing the reservoir after a certain amount of time (Y). I just don’t know what X and Y should be, assuming this is an appropriate plan of attack.

Thanks all!

 

[Dirtbag]

Promis like any Imid product should only ever be used in Veg, Ideally 90 days before harvest, but at least 60 days to be sure its safe.

Do NOT pour a concentrated Imid solution over the hydroton, just add it to the res right before lights on and let the roots soak for 4 hrs to take up the IMID, then change the res out. Do a repeat application 14 days later. Pouring it concentrated over the roots could easily kill the plant. Only ever expose the roots to an adequately diluted solution. The roots will take it up and every aphid that bites a root is toast. That's the beauty of systemics, It doesnt need to contact the pest, because the whole plant becomes toxic to the pests.

Not sure the dose rate for Promis, I think it's pretty diluted IMID. I prefer merit 75 at 1/2 tsp per 5 gallons.

 

[Greengrower8]

Ok great thanks!

Yea I can’t find an application rate for hydro. I thought I remember Demon_Trich saying something like 10ml per gallon. I can’t remember. I know he’s familiar with Imid as well.

 

[Trustfall]

Promis isn’t going to be strong enough to kill root aphids, you will kill a few, they will build resistance and kick your plants asses again. Use triacazide from Home Depot to kill all RA’s on contact. Spray everything! The trays the pots the floor wherever the little bastirds may lay. After that use mallet. I know it’s harsh but those bastirds will die, and you will be bug free until you reintroduce.

 

[Greengrower8]

Arg. More confliction.

So, which is it? Will Imid give a complete RA kill or only kill a few??

I realize there is no single answer to eradicate these things. Over months of reading, it seems most people see results using multiple chemicals. However, it’s obviously only worthwhile to use something that’s effective. Getting opposite answers about the same chemical is frustrating. And stuff like this happens often. It makes it very hard to follow advice and make a good decision.

 

[Dirtbag]

2 applications of Merit 75 completely wiped out my root aphid problem. Nothing survived. And it was a severe infestation. But merit is also 75% Imid whereas promis is like 0.2% Imid, so it could be that it's not nearly strong enough.
I haven't used triazicide, I cant get it in Canada.
Another option is botanigard. It works great too apparently but it's expensive.

Trustfall is right though if you dont wipe them out 100%, you could get aphids that become resistant to the pesticides that are almost impossible to get rid of. Dont pussyfoot around, use the most effective treatment you have access to.

 

[Greengrower8]

Wow that is quite a difference in concentration. I have heard of botanigard, again, with conflictions of effectiveness. The other one I’ve heard of is Met 52. I’m also aware of the superbug possibility, which is why I haven’t used any chemicals already.

All if these seem to need to be applied very early on, like on seedlings, etc so that the chemical has enough time to degrade. But the aphids aren’t bothering my seedlings at all. The infestations I would try to manage are in mature vegging plants that I could basically put into flower at any time if I wanted. There are also a couple plants a week or two into flower that also could use treatment. But I dunno if there is enough time to allow chemical degradation in any of these plants. I may just have to continue to use BCAs (Dalotia, Strat) to keep the population down. I wish these BCAs would just finish them off, but after using them to battle this for the last few months, they continue to stop short of full eradication. They definitely help, but they have fallen short of curing my problem.

 

[Dirtbag]

The only thing I'd use on plants that are already flowering is botanigard as a Drench. Imid needs to be applied at least 60 days before harvest but 90 is better.

If I were in your shoes I'd consider using spectracide/triazicide and merit or mallet 75 a week apart on everything in Veg as trustfall suggested, and 2 applications of botanigard to the flowering plants, 5 days apart. I might even consider destroying the ones in flower just because I'm not sure if botanigard is up to the task of complete eradication. And you really do not want ANY survivors. Because the ones you cant kill, breed more that are just as hard to kill.

 

[Greengrower8]

Ok. I’ve ordered Bontanigard ES. I’ve actually been looking at this product off and on for months. I hope it lives up to its hype. It’s frickin expensive enough.

These are the manufacturers recommended application rates:
https://www.bioworksinc.com/products/shared/rates-for-small-volumes-botanigard.pdf

At full strength it’s almost 20ml per gallon.

These are their recommendations for controlling root aphids:


They recommend soaking the rootball in the diluted solution for 10 minutes. I could fairly easily soak the roots and the entire basket contents in a solution like this.

Are these recommendations appropriate?

 

[the rrock]

Ive had root aphids a few times over the years and wipe them out with a root drench of Merit 75, (only in veg) and they dont come back.

 

[Dirtbag]

Ok. I’ve ordered Bontanigard ES. I’ve actually been looking at this product off and on for months. I hope it lives up to its hype. It’s frickin expensive enough.

These are the manufacturers recommended application rates:
https://www.bioworksinc.com/products/shared/rates-for-small-volumes-botanigard.pdf

At full strength it’s almost 20ml per gallon.

These are their recommendations for controlling root aphids:


They recommend soaking the rootball in the diluted solution for 10 minutes. I could fairly easily soak the roots and the entire basket contents in a solution like this.

Are these recommendations appropriate?

Just remembered you are in hydro... Botanigard apparently isnt very useful as a drench in hydro, at least the wp version I use says so in the info that came with it. The spores die within 24hrs in water.

 

[jumpincactus]

I've got some bad news for you... Those are two bugs you dont ever want to see at the same time.

Imid will nuke the RA's yes, but Imid has also been shown to increase the reproductive rate of two spotted spider mites by 30-40%. NEVER use Imid if you have spider mites. They will go berserk and be uncontrollable, it turns regular mites Into super mites that are pretty much unstoppable without using something very potent like Avid. And even then... No guarantee. If one spider mite survives Its going to be the strongest and most mutant unstoppable mite you've ever dealt with that will reproduce more of the same.

Personally, I'd take some carefull cuttings, dunk them in azamax or neem oil , and scrap the rest and start over. Or just scrap it all and start over. And clean the room out like it's never been cleaned before. Bleach everything, walls, floors, runoff trays, everything. Then I'd let off a pesticide fumigant, as well as burn sulphur in the room for like 7-8 hrs before I'd even think about putting plants in there again.

Please point me to the source of the data you researched to make this statement about spider mites. Would love to read that if you can remember where you read this. Thanks in advance. :D

Not being a SA just want to increase my knowledge base.:cool:

 

[Dirtbag]

Please point me to the source of the data you researched to make this statement about spider mites. Would love to read that if you can remember where you read this. Thanks in advance. :D

Not being a SA just want to increase my knowledge base.:cool:

There is a few papers on it I believe. This is one I just found but the reproductive numbers are slightly lower than the ones I mentioned. I have to work tonight but I'll see if I can find the other article later on.

As for the other statement about producing super mites, that would mainly be from getting less than 100% kill rate on mites with a boosted reproductive rate.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12216813/

 

[Greengrower8]

Just remembered you are in hydro... Botanigard apparently isnt very useful as a drench in hydro, at least the wp version I use says so in the info that came with it. The spores die within 24hrs in water.

View attachment 863270

Yea I saw that. However, I see no reason why I can’t basically soak the entire root zone in the solution as recommended just as I would a soil plant. Also, almost all of my hydro plants were initially vegged in 1 gallon coco poly bags. Pretty much that entire gallon of coco went into the 6” baskets. So almost the entire basket is “soil” and obviously roots are extending down into the water from the basket. Root aphids cannot eat/survive under water, so I’m not as concerned about the submerged roots. Bottom line, all of this can be soaked in a botanigard solution to make sure all the aphids get hit with spores.
Furthermore, I have many plants that are currently vegging in 1 gal poly bags of soil (promix-ewc blend) and frankly I can’t tell if any of these plants have aphids or not. I’d need to dig out the roots to try and look. But obviously these all could be soil drenched with botanigard to make sure to kill any that might be lurking in them.

I admit, I’m a bit hesitant to use something as powerful as merit 75. Many of these “soil” plants are being prepped for outdoors. I’m afraid using a strong chemical like merit 75 will decrease the effectiveness of any beneficials I might add later on and it will leave the plant ultimately more susceptible to pests, etc. Honestly, I’m not really sure. I don’t really know that much about merit 75 other than it’s super concentrated Imid.

 

[1diesel1]

https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/000432-01314-20041124.pdf

 

[1diesel1]

https://www.planetnatural.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/met-52-granular-msds.pdf

 

[Greengrower8]

https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/000432-01314-20041124.pdf

https://www.planetnatural.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/met-52-granular-msds.pdf

Ummm...yikes.

 

[Dirtbag]

Ummm...yikes.

What's scary about that? All I saw was basic safe handling procedures and cautions. It's obviously toxic in a concentrated form but once diluted and used per directions it's actually a lot safer for humans than the vast majority of insecticides. Regular cigarette nicotine is many MANY orders of magnitude more toxic.

FWIW, the MSDS for botanigard looks about the same. Most MSDS sheets for concentrated stuff looks bad. What you want to look for is; is it carcinogenic, is it mutagenetic, and does it cause organ damage. The answer to all 3 is no, it does not. Handle it safely and it's no more dangerous than any other pesticide.

 

[Greengrower8]

Lol I guess nothing. I’m just not sure what to do. I’m trying to just get the rest of my plants through. Then I’m gonna flea bomb the hell out of my basement and start from scratch.