Spores In De Coco-nut

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El Cerebro

El Cerebro

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Since there's only been fragmented discussion of coco media in the main thread, here's a place to keep comments on it specifically. Please post any observations, application ideas, results, etc.

And needless to say, we have a nice environment for all the favorite bugs compared to straight hydro, so coco growers should have good feedback to add in this dept (as some already have re knocking down RAs).

For starters, Cap feels jury is still out on benefits of myochorrizae in coco, while the use of bacterial bennies is undisputed. He also mentioned the obvious potential value of the K solubilizer in our case.
 
El Cerebro

El Cerebro

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here's a quick review of relevant comments from the main thread (Cap's responses, edited for brevity)

In coco I would make a tea. throw 3 tbl spoons of each in a 5 gallon bucket with 50 ml of a carb source (earth juice hi brix works well for me, but I have also used sweet and carboload with success). Then add abotu 3-4 gallons of RO or distilled water. Stir it up.

You could also research puttign in alfalfa meal and earth worm castings in to this brew for a super tea, complete with the tricontanol from the alfalfa which will increase the rate of cell division.

Use an air pump and a good air stone to bubble it for 24-48 hours in a 5 gallon bucket. It should get frothy. I turn the air stone off and skim the top to get just the liquid. Some other people like to strain with a cheesecloth.

Water the plants with it, like 1 cup or two right at the base, and then I would run some RO water to saturate (no runoff this time).

You can do this once, or once a week, or whenever you feel like it. I dump the excess in my garden plants, but you can keep the solution up to 10 days in the fridge.

root and nute are designed to be able to be used together, but you dont have to use them together.

One has the mykos and the other has the fungus/bacteria. That way, the grower can tailor to their specs.

You can just mix it in with the soil/coco at the same rate as the mykos. I feel in coco though, and this is just my opinion, that it would be better to make a tea with some carbs/sugars and water in, since coco is pretty sterile. that way they can eat the carbs/sugars until they find the roots (or the roots find them).

Here is how the email train chugged along today with the dude who supplies all the big players:

ME: Can you tell me how the mycorrhizae work with different media? I am looking specifically at the difference between soil, coco (hydroponic), and maybe something like hydroton (hydroponic). Do the mycos basically just attach to the roots, and then find food/water for the plant, and in return feed off of plant waste? Or, are they feeding off something else? Do you really need to reapply in hydroponics if you colonize early, and if you aren’t using hydrogen peroxide or any other products that will potentially kill them?

HIM:
The media is really unimportant. As long as there is root growth it is the exudates from the roots that cause spores to germinate. The fungus gets simple sugars and carbos from the plant in exchange for fueling their activities in the soil excreting chemicals that break down all the 15 micro and macro nutrients and translocate them into the plant. If you get colonization over 30% MIP then you do not have to re-appl. Hydrogen P is not good.

ME:
In a pure hydro setting, where plant roots are pretty much suspended in water with access to nutrients at all times, are there any advantages to using endos?
Will the endos “force feed” the plants more than the the plants would take up without them?

HIM:
You need to have ebb and flow as mycos are aerobic. Yes colonizing the roots extend them and their abilities to get more nutrients in the plant.

ME:

Will endos survive and thrive in an environment artificially loaded with sugars/carbs, and no plant roots? For example, If I make a tea with black strap molasses and soak a rock wool cube in it, then I add the mycos.. will they germinate and live without a plant?

HIM:
No they will not germinate without a living plant root.

ME:
So when you apply with water, is it the water that brings them out of hibernation or is it the presence of plant roots? This is really interesting. We have always been told that it is a good idea to “feed” the plants with something like black strap molasses or another car source, so the mycos will have something to eat before they come in contact with the roots.

HIM:
The only thing that germinates these spores are the specific root exudates from a living plant root. Other fungi and bacteria need a carb source; not the mycorrhizal fungi as it is in a symbiotic relationship with it's plant host which provides everything it needs.

http://www.dutchmaster.com.au/?language=english&page=growers_guide&topic=beneficial_bacteria





I am still researching, but I do not believe that mycos are very useful in a pure hydro settings (rdwc, dwc, aero, etc), but ARE useful in coco. If you are only supplying synthetic nutes, the mycos probably arent so useful, EXCEPT, if you miss a watering by accident, because they will find every last drop of available water for the plants. In fact, you could probably cut down on watering substantially if you had a nice colony of mycos going.

The fixers, mobilizers etc. though I believe are useful (still researching). Found a study on peas that reported 20% increase in plant mass and pod size form N fixers.

The bennies in the root pack are good for soil or hydro (all aspects). Same with the foliar.

The three can for sure be mixed together. The application rate is 1-2tsp per liter. I personally use 4 tsp per gallon and make a tea, but you could apply it direct as you describe.

I am not sure I would use the mykos every time because that would be a waste. The root pack with the trichoderma etc.. is fine to reapply at your leisure.. I would say bi weekly but you can do weekly if you want...

I think the directions on great white are misleading. For one, mycos should be applied as early as possble, and are not so beneficial when it comes to hydro (except coco... and then really just for drought tolerance IMHO). Therefore they do not need to be applied weekly.. thats just a way to go through the product faster, so you need to buy more, sooner.

The trichoderma, bacillis, etc... those you can reapply to "boost the herd", but to be honest, I think once a week would be overkill, especially if you were using a carb source like molasses, sweet, carboload, etc...). I will find out more and post my finding here as usual.

We are talking about establishing colonies in the rhizosphere. In essence the aim is to recreate an ecosystem so that you do not need to reapply constantly. I know that for hydro users like myself this is a little difficult since you generally change media at the end of a harvest (except coco)... but I do not see any reason to apply weekly the nute or root pack. Now, according to the experts it is very difficult to over apply, and so some people may just want to play it safe.

As far as the foliar pack goes: a weekly drench should keep the soldiers present at all times, which should be a perfect defense for harmful nematodes (does not affect beneficial nematodes I asked), fungus gnats, RA's, grubs, and pretty much anything else in the media that would be attacking the root system.

Mycorrhiza are not really compatible with hydro settings, except IMHO coco that you are reusing crop after crop.

They take a few weeks to establish, will rob your plants of carbs due to the fact that in hydro all the nutes are readily available. They are bad for high P environments. Anything over 50 elemental ppm P and you start to see the colonies slowing.

great white also has many good bacteria and beneficial fungi, which the root pack has, except the root pack is about 18,000x more concentrated and about a third of the price. It also has things like photosynthetic bacteria and streptomyces spp. that great white does not.

For straight hydro I recommend the root pack. When I say straight hydro I mean aeroponics, hydroton ebb/flo, NFT.. etc..

If you are using and reusing your coco (Soil less and still considered hydro), then the mycos would be beneficial. They also once established can reduce the need for watering and help with drought stress, so if you miss a watering you would have more time before the dreaded wilting point to realize you fucked up and water your girls. IMHO.
 
Capulator

Capulator

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damn bro. Thanks for the summary. Wicked good.

I have a 9 site coco garden that I am going to experiment on soon. I will post it up here.
 
El Cerebro

El Cerebro

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Ha, thanks for the rep guys, but it's not really that hard. I just used thread search tool with "coco", clicked a few quotes, and cleaned up a bit. Funny, I didn't notice thread search for the first few months here, but use it constantly now to find what I want quickly.

Back to the subject. Knowing the usual visitors a little, and with deference to Cap, I'm guessing this thread may end up expanding a little into the "cheap alternatives" department too. In that regard, Frederick W. Dankstone should be over any time now to add his rap?
 
Capulator

Capulator

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Sorry I'm late!
It is late o'clock and I just smoked some oven-baked chemo x og kush that I chopped, so I will come back to this thread tomorrow. You guys really know a lot more than I do in this area.

OVEN BAKED!!!???

WTF DW.:no

lol
 
El Cerebro

El Cerebro

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Sorry I'm late!
It is late o'clock and I just smoked some oven-baked chemo x og kush that I chopped, so I will come back to this thread tomorrow. You guys really know a lot more than I do in this area.

Yeah the knowledge tables could turn once you innoculate all that fresh coir in your new zero tolerance, bad-bugs dont't even think about it, organ-immuno bucket system.

Now quit acting like a highschool kid and get that stuff into jars before it's all gone :cool0019:
 
Capulator

Capulator

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My experiment didn't work out so good. I ended up using tea on everything. I had the healthiest plants to date. No fungus gnats.

I am installing another res to split the coco wall up in two, so then I will be able to do it. I'm pretty lazy, and so I just adding the tea to the res every week. Once the wall is split in to 4 and 5 sites I can run comparison tests more easily. I can add the tea to just one res, and leave the other just nutes.
 
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