Interested In Real Spores Without The "fluff"

[GreenThumbBill]

"Item location: Beverly Hills, California, United States"
hehe, Cap be big pimpin! lol

 

[GanjaGardener]

"Item location: Beverly Hills, California, United States"
hehe, Cap be big pimpin! lol

Yeah. How much extra did you have to pay to get that zip code, Cap? lol

 

[Capulator]

Im just putting that zip code in to the universe for myself.

:cool0041:

 

[Capulator]

Here is how the email train chugged along today with the dude who supplies all the big players:

ME: Can you tell me how the mycorrhizae work with different media?

I am looking specifically at the difference between soil, coco (hydroponic), and maybe something like hydroton (hydroponic)

Do the mycos basically just attach to the roots, and then find food/water for the plant, and in return feed off of plant waste?

Or, are they feeding off something else?

Do you really need to reapply in hydroponics if you colonize early, and if you aren’t using hydrogen peroxide or any other products that will potentially kill them?

Thanks for any light you can shed on this for me.


HIM:

The media is really unimportant. As long as there is root growth it is the exudates from the roots that cause
spores to germinate. The fungus gets simple sugars and carbos from the plant in exchange for fueling their
Activities in the soil excreting chemicals that break down all the 15 micro and macro nutrients and translocate
them into the plant. If you get colonization over 30% MIP then you do not have to re-appl. Hydrogen P is not good.


ME:

In a pure hydro setting, where plant roots are pretty much suspended in water with access to nutrients at all times, are there any advantages to using endos?

Will the endos “force feed” the plants more than the the plants would take up without them?


HIM:

You need to have ebb and flow as mycos are aerobic. Yes colonizing the roots extend them and their abilities to get more nutrients in the plant.

ME:

Will endos survive and thrive in an environment artificially loaded with sugars/carbs, and no plant roots?

For example, If I make a tea with black strap molasses and soak a rock wool cube in it, then I add the mycos.. will they germinate and live without a plant?


HIM:

No they will not germinate without a living plant root.


ME:

So when you apply with water, is it the water that brings them out of hibernation or is it the presence of plant roots?

This is really interesting. We have always been told that it is a good idea to “feed” the plants with something like black strap molasses or another car source, so the mycos will have something to eat before they come in contact with the roots.


HIM:

The only thing that germinates these spores are the specific root exudates from a living plant root. Other fungi and bacteria need a carb source; not the mycorrhizal fungi as it is in a symbiotic relationship with it's plant host which provides everything it needs.



What an enlightening day.

:banana1sv6:

 

[Shamrock]

^much thanks. will be here tomorrow, can't wait.

You said you might be able to get some answers to any questions we had, from your source.

heres a couple:
-how do the microbes in your mix react to synthetic nutes?
-what is the medium's role in the mycorhizal relationship? ie, coco vs soil vs hydroton

thanks again man

I was curious about how salts/synthetic nutes effect bennies also.

 

[Capulator]

As far as the synthetic nutes go:


The microbes will stop multiplying and die, if you apply synthetic fertilizers more than 5% v/v basis.

 

[Capulator]

1 gram of water is equal to 1 mL

here is a calculator:

http://www.ou.edu/research/electron/bmz5364/calc-percent.html

so you can do your v/v calculations. I dont think any of us will come close to 5% v/v of a fertilizer solution. Hopefully someone with a chemistry background can chime in on this, but I get:

5 grams jr peters brand synthetic nutes to 1 gallon
5 grams to 3,785 mL...
1 gram = 1 mL
5 mL to 3,785 mL
5/3,785= 1/757 = (v/v)
= .001
= .1%

.1% is well under 5%...

 

[Capulator]

Oh man check out what Beauveria bassiana (in foliar pack) does to bugs:

thats fucked up.

 

[Pockets]

As far as the synthetic nutes go:

Here is what the Dr. had to say:

"The microbes will not multiply and die, if you apply synthetic fertilizers more than 5% v/v basis."

so im assuming this is with all bennie lines not just yours, that sucks as i run synthetics atm and was looking to make an order.

whats also interesting is that GH has a bennie line that they claim is made to run in high salt environments. is the salt the factor or is this word fuckery, not false but not truely specified?

 

[Pockets]

btw, i love this photo! little grub cakes, looks like its gonna pin any time now!

p.s.
how about the hemp russet mite?

Oh man check out what Beauveria bassiana (in foliar pack) does to bugs:

thats fucked up.

 

[GanjaGardener]

so im assuming this is with all bennie lines not just yours, that sucks as i run synthetics atm and was looking to make an order.

whats also interesting is that GH has a bennie line that they claim is made to run in high salt environments. is the salt the factor or is this word fuckery, not false but not truely specified?

Organisms live in the Dead Sea. Maybe they've made a breakthrough in extremophile bennies. :bug:bug:bug

 

[Capulator]

so im assuming this is with all bennie lines not just yours, that sucks as i run synthetics atm and was looking to make an order.

whats also interesting is that GH has a bennie line that they claim is made to run in high salt environments. is the salt the factor or is this word fuckery, not false but not truely specified?

Bro,

5% v/v is extraordinarily high, and you will never hit that using normal doses of synthetic nutes. Your plants would die being watered with nutes at those levels.

 

[Capulator]

For those running hydro or soil, AND using Mycos of any brand AND running high P levels:

What levels of P are critical?
When the soil level of bicarbonate-soluble phosphorus exceeded 140 mg kg -1 (140parts per million) the rate of infection was found to decrease (Amijee et al. 1989).

Abbott and Robson (1977 & 1978) found the mycorrhizae Glomus fasciculatum
ceased to be effective when the soil level of phosphorus reached 133 mg kg -1 [133parts per million (ppm)].

Schubert and Hayman (1986) found mycorrhizae was nolonger effective when 100 mg or more of P was added per kilogram of soil (100
ppm).

Mycorrhizal infection virtually disappeared with the addition of 1.5 grams or
more of mono calcium phosphate per kilogram of soil (Mosse 1973).

With small
additions of phosphorus fertilizer, entry points and fungal growth on the root surfaceremained normal but arbuscles were small and fewer in number reducing theeffectiveness of the fungus/plant relationship. Other researchers have reported mycorrhizal infections tend to die out in soils containing or given much phosphorus (Baylis, 1967; Mosse, 1967).

The development of mycorrhizal relationships were
found to be the greatest when soil phosphorus levels were at 50 mg kg -1 (50 ppm)Schubert & Hayman, 1986).

Summary and recommendations:
The benefits of mycorrhizae are greatest when soil phosphorus levels are at or
below 50 ppm (50 mg kg -1). Mycorrhizal infection of roots declines above this level with little if any infection occurring above 100 ppm P even when soil is inoculated with a mycorrhizae mix. Prior to inoculating soil with mycorrhizae, a soil test should be conducted. If phosphorus levels are greater than 50 ppm the addition of mycorrhizae will likely be
ineffective.

The level of phosphorus in the plant also has been shown to influence the
establishment of VA mycorrhizae with high levels inhibiting colonization by
mycorrhizae (Menge, et al. 1978). Foliar applications of phosphorus therefore
should be avoided when inoculating soil with mycorrhizae.



I keep my solution at 50ppm or less. If you are using boosters or high P products and expect to see results from mycos... please re read the above material and change your regimine.

I also highly suggest this read:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=191007&highlight=myth+high

 

[sfzoo]

Thanks again Cap. I have a few more questions, and a bit of clarifying needed.

The media is really unimportant. As long as there is root growth it is the exudates from the roots that cause
spores to germinate. The fungus gets simple sugars and carbos from the plant in exchange for fueling their
Activities in the soil excreting chemicals that break down all the 15 micro and macro nutrients and translocate
them into the plant. If you get colonization over 30% MIP then you do not have to re-appl. Hydrogen P is not good.

Here he says that in exchange for the sugars and carbos, from the plant, the fungus excretes chemicals that break down the nutrients and supplies the plant.

However, if i'm not mistaken, synthetic nutrients are made to be soluble already. Thus, the fixers, solubilizers, and mobilizers will essentially be ineffective and useless.

Is there any benefit to be had when running bennies and synthetic nutrients?

As far as the synthetic nutes go:

Here is what the Dr. had to say:

"The microbes will not multiply and die, if you apply synthetic fertilizers more than 5% v/v basis."

Is this supposed to read, the microbes will not multiply and not die? or the microbes will not mulitply and then will die?

 

[raincheck]

Capulator, I just finished reading your entire thread. I'm wondering if mixing the nute and root pack into a the coco medium before transplanting would be the most effective time to inoculate the plants?

also if you could please email me since I am unable to use PM so I could make an order, that would be lovely.

Thanks!

 

[Capulator]

Thanks again Cap. I have a few more questions, and a bit of clarifying needed.




Here he says that in exchange for the sugars and carbos, from the plant, the fungus excretes chemicals that break down the nutrients and supplies the plant.

However, if i'm not mistaken, synthetic nutrients are made to be soluble already. Thus, the fixers, solubilizers, and mobilizers will essentially be ineffective and useless.

Is there any benefit to be had when running bennies and synthetic nutrients?


Is this supposed to read, the microbes will not multiply and not die? or the microbes will not mulitply and then will die?

http://www.dutchmaster.com.au/?language=english&page=growers_guide&topic=beneficial_bacteria








I am still researching, but I do not believe that mycos are very useful in a pure hydro settings (rdwc, dwc, aero, etc), but ARE useful in coco. If you are only supplying synthetic nutes, the mycos probably arent so useful, EXCEPT, if you miss a watering by accident, because they will find every last drop of available water for the plants. In fact, you could probably cut down on watering substantially if you had a nice colony of mycos going.

The fixers, mobilizers etc. though I believe are useful (still researching). Found a study on peas that reported 20% increase in plant mass and pod size form N fixers.

The bennies in the root pack are good for soil or hydro (all aspects). Same with the foliar.

 

[Capulator]

At this point I would advise the average grower who does not understand ppm and how to use ratios and calculators.. against using them. I am not trying to sound like a dick here. I think that mycos are good for soil, and in low P environments. But they become detrimental in high P environments. They actually will drain your plant of simple sugars and carbon.



I posted the link above to shed some light on the AM scam in the hydro industry.

If you are strictly hydro, I recommend using the root pack, and possibly going without the nute pack until either I or another farmer here has run a side by side.

If you bought the nute pack and you are running straight hydro with synthetic nutes, I am sorry I found this out now instead of earlier. PM me and if you want to send it back, I will replace it with more root pack, or foliar.

 

[delae632]

Very interesting thread Cap. I'll be placing an order soon.

 

[bloads]

Just found this thread!

When are more packs going to be available? The last ebay link I saw had expired.

 

[Capulator]

Had some ebay issues. Here is the link again.