sugar in your flush to promote THC crystals??

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NoReason

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For the last time...No.

They can directly uptake sugars themselves (although the sugars are ALSO food for your microorganisms).

I totally agree. Sugars are absorbed and used from 99% (?) of the living organisms.

Can't be said for sure for cannabis specifically as thats not the main plant researched in these studies--however

That's true to me, every kind of plant is different and some genotype expression are expressed only if the external factors are a trigger, maybe too much N will inhibits sugars absorption for example or vice versa. However it would sound strange to me cannabis does not absorb sugars ;)
 
squiggly

squiggly

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Symports and antiports tend to be fairly conserved in plants where it relates to catabolism/uptake. You find most differences on the anabolism side of things.
 
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moemoe08

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can you tell me what your regimen for sugars through a cycle sqig. I hear molasses are bad to use near the end of harvest because the mg makes your buds taste harsh.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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Maybe like 5mL/gal a few times during veg. Starting in week 1 or 2 of flower start adding with every feeding at 5mL/gal and work up to ~10mL/gal +/- 1mL just before you begin your flush.

I may start experimenting with continuing to ramp up sugars thru the flush--in the hopes that it will suppress photosynthesis and encourage degradation of chlorophyll.
 
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moemoe08

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thanks. you seem to have a good understanding of plant chemistry. I use about a teaspoon in veg and a tablespoon per gallon in flower. do you use molasses? I read in Skunk and Hightimes that I shouldn't use to much molasses late in flower because of the magnesium. molasses have a lot of available mg.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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I use earth juice Hi-Brix molasses.

I don't think your friend is going to be able to quantify or support his claim that more Mg (at small concentrations) affects taste adversely. It may be true, but unless he's done a controlled experiment I'd question it and test myself.
 
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moemoe08

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the learned it from the Rev at Skunk and Danny Danko at Hightimes (or Jorge Cevantes I got to find the article.) I'm pretty sure I've seen it in at least 3 different articles about magnesium causing harsh smoke. the guy at the hydro store was the first one to tell me about 2 months ago. after he told me, I've been seeing it a lot. I don't think small amounts will hurt because in one article the guy still used it just in smaller doses. the guy at the hydro site says he uses sucanat in the last 2 or 3 weeks instead of molasses. my molasses are 8% mg. in my opinion, there has to be residual mg left in your medium of you use it in the last week.
 
GreenSpoon

GreenSpoon

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great discussion guys i hope this kind of level of knowledge spills into more threads
 
desertsquirrel

desertsquirrel

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The main benefit to the use of simple sugars during and just prior to flush (although their might be minimal up-take by the plant) is the slight negative charge that its provides. This helps it to attract and bond with cations in your media and flushing them out of the system.

Of course RDWC has no media to flush.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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Were this the case you'd basically just be performing column chromatography on the medium using a solvent system that has a ratio of 1:378 negative:neutral.

For as minimal the uptake might be that you're suggesting, the overall effect of flushing out cations gained by such a ratio will be nearly nothing, if not nothing at all.

All of that aside, I'm unsure where you're getting that simple sugars impart a negative charge--these are uncharged species. They are polar and do have ares of high and low electron density corresponding to negative and positive charges, however overall they are not negative. Cations will be attracted to the polar ends of the sugars, however they are quite a bit happier being attracted to water instead.

Although simple sugars are polar and water soluble, they still possess fairly high non-polar character and as such will tend to be excluded from the parts of waters hydrogen bond networks which are interacting with cations--especially single atom cations like Mg, K, and Na. This is all ultimately related to the entropy of the system. Water tends to favor broader networks which exclude larger more non-polar molecules, and although this would seem to be an ordered thing--the idea is that the non-polar molecules are not allowed to interrupt the randomness of the H-bonding networks, thermodynamically its easier for water to hang out on its own--this is why lipid bilayers will form spontaneously in water (and DNA will re-fold itself under the right conditions, it has hydrophobic inner face).
 
phenotyper

phenotyper

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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to squiggly again.

:passingjoint:
 
Legallyflying

Legallyflying

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Were this the case you'd basically just be performing column chromatography on the medium using a solvent system that has a ratio of 1:378 negative:neutral.

For as minimal the uptake might be that you're suggesting, the overall effect of flushing out cations gained by such a ratio will be nearly nothing, if not nothing at all.

All of that aside, I'm unsure where you're getting that simple sugars impart a negative charge--these are uncharged species. They are polar and do have ares of high and low electron density corresponding to negative and positive charges, however overall they are not negative. Cations will be attracted to the polar ends of the sugars, however they are quite a bit happier being attracted to water instead.

Although simple sugars are polar and water soluble, they still possess fairly high non-polar character and as such will tend to be excluded from the parts of waters hydrogen bond networks which are interacting with cations--especially single atom cations like Mg, K, and Na. This is all ultimately related to the entropy of the system. Water tends to favor broader networks which exclude larger more non-polar molecules, and although this would seem to be an ordered thing--the idea is that the non-polar molecules are not allowed to interrupt the randomness of the H-bonding networks, thermodynamically its easier for water to hang out on its own--this is why lipid bilayers will form spontaneously in water (and DNA will re-fold itself under the right conditions, it has hydrophobic inner face).


LMFAO. All that aside.. I (in addition to other capable growers) have done identical side by side hydroton flushes with both plain water and sugared water and the sugar enriched water pulled an average of 150+ ppm more salts out of the substrate. Whether this be the "polarity of the Molucules" or "column chromatography" I think any benefits you might see are far far outweighed by the risk of increased microbial activity in your DWC. It's a recipe for root rot.

I would love it if someone coul post a link that explains how plants are up taking sucrose or glucose....and the source of these soil based sugars in the natural environment.
 
desertsquirrel

desertsquirrel

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LMFAO. All that aside.. I (in addition to other capable growers) have done identical side by side hydroton flushes with both plain water and sugared water and the sugar enriched water pulled an average of 150+ ppm more salts out of the substrate. Whether this be the "polarity of the Molucules" or "column chromatography" I think any benefits you might see are far far outweighed by the risk of increased microbial activity in your DWC. It's a recipe for root rot.

I would love it if someone coul post a link that explains how plants are up taking sucrose or glucose....and the source of these soil based sugars in the natural environment.

yep. soil based sugars mostly come from the plant.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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Basically everything that lives or dies contains sugars. The soil is made up of things that once lived and then died. I don't know how to make that any simpler.

As far as the flushing goes--strictly speaking, with hydroton in the stationary phase you are performing a hybrid of column and size-exclusion chromatography, the kinetics of this are a bit different from movement through a (semi)homogenous stationary phase like soil. In this case--the larger size and slightly interrupted H-bond networks of water would probably serve to move cations out better. This is probably more due to sterics than polarity though. It's important to remember that water is quite a bit more polar than any of the sugars. The additional ring structure attached to the O in the Hydroxyl groups serve to stabilize the negative charge on O, which in turn requires it to pull less on its neighboring hydrogen, resulting in reduced polarity when compared with a ( strongly electronegative ) O attached to two hydrogens.

Water is better at pulling at cations with everything held constant. Unfortunately for this analysis everything is not constant. Sterically, the sugars may serve to actually rub/grab adsorbed cations from the hydroton, due to the surface tension of water it is unlikely to be very good at this because its steric influence is reduced by its networking with surrounding water molecules.

You can laugh it off all you like--but I swear to you that every process you undertake in this world is governed by physics and chemistry. It makes a bit of sense to use them when you're trying to explain what's at play in a system like this.

All of the side-by-sides in the world focused merely on results won't ever stand up to one critical assay of the principles behind the results in terms of preparing you for making the best decisions about how to maximize any type of potential (removing cations, moving air through a room, producing light, reducing smell, you-name-it)

It would have been difficult to discover that increasing pressure of a closed system will increase the temperature if we hadn't yet figured out how to measure pressure or temperature.

As the adage goes, you can lead a horse to water...I'm not going to do the research for you. I've linked one study--hundreds more are at your fingertips, a truth that is self-evident in accord with your e-presence at this forum.

In fact--there must be five additional threads on this very site discussing this topic.

Here is the problem I have with how you're approaching this:

You are basically scoffing at a discussion based on your non-recorded and half-explained experiences. While I don't doubt your experience, you seem to doubt mine--and it seems to be that you do so only in vehement protection of your own (insinuated) vacuum of knowledge/lack of interest in the science at work.

Protecting a non-theory comes off to me as disgracefully counterproductive.
 
Legallyflying

Legallyflying

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Its not soo much of a vaccum as it is a general disdain for some of the reoccuring marijuana growing myths. I don't doubt your knowledge, but as I am a wetland biollogist not a chemist, I have a hard time folllowing your discusssion as I am quite certain 99% of the others are. I got a C+ in organic chemistry, one of the two C's I got in my entire college career. So, chemistry is not my strong point.

I have done quite a bit of reading on the subject, and while yes, I am sure that there is SOME way that sugars can get into the plant... but, are these sugars going to result in an increase in the traits that we are seeking? (weight, density, thc levels?) nothing that I have read would suggest so. People seem to think that plants are going to gul up these carbs your dumping in the soil and then "they won't ahve to make their own" and will have "all that extra energy to build buds". In soil gardens people have reported increases in weight, vigor, etc, but how much of this is from an increase in available nutirents from increase microbial activity and how much is just placebo effect, I am not certain.

Wheather you agree or not on what the supposed effects are, I can tell you this, adding molassis to a DWC is playing with fire. For me, loosing an entire crop to a massive slime outbreak (not too mention al that damn sterilizing afterwards) is not worth the supposed benefits.

Based on my readings, trichome production and THC content is largly a function of genetics. The only actual scientific study I have ever found on the subject of environmental roles in the expression of cannabis traits suggested increases in resin production from higher UvB and Low humidity.
 
desertsquirrel

desertsquirrel

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Its not soo much of a vaccum as it is a general disdain for some of the reoccuring marijuana growing myths. I don't doubt your knowledge, but as I am a wetland biollogist not a chemist, I have a hard time folllowing your discusssion as I am quite certain 99% of the others are. I got a C+ in organic chemistry, one of the two C's I got in my entire college career. So, chemistry is not my strong point.

I have done quite a bit of reading on the subject, and while yes, I am sure that there is SOME way that sugars can get into the plant... but, are these sugars going to result in an increase in the traits that we are seeking? (weight, density, thc levels?) nothing that I have read would suggest so. People seem to think that plants are going to gul up these carbs your dumping in the soil and then "they won't ahve to make their own" and will have "all that extra energy to build buds". In soil gardens people have reported increases in weight, vigor, etc, but how much of this is from an increase in available nutirents from increase microbial activity and how much is just placebo effect, I am not certain.


Wheather you agree or not on what the supposed effects are, I can tell you this, adding molassis to a DWC is playing with fire. For me, loosing an entire crop to a massive slime outbreak (not too mention al that damn sterilizing afterwards) is not worth the supposed benefits.

Based on my readings, trichome production and THC content is largly a function of genetics. The only actual scientific study I ahve ever found ont he subject suggested increases in resin production from UvB and Low humidity.

^
perfect
 
N

NoReason

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8
I have done quite a bit of reading on the subject, and while yes, I am sure that there is SOME way that sugars can get into the plant... but, are these sugars going to result in an increase in the traits that we are seeking? (weight, density, thc levels?) nothing that I have read would suggest so.

Try to consider sugars as a source of Carbon atoms. Carbon is used for a lot of things by the plant. I don't really thing there is any direct association with THC levels, weight and density and I explain you why.

Carbon itself is like oil for a car. If you give more oil to the motor, you need to give it also more air, otherwise the oil will be wasted as it can't burn properly.
If you give more carbon to the plant, you have to give it also more light, and more nutrients, and more Oxygen and more Hydrogen.
When all these things are dialed in, the plant increase its metabholism as a car would perform better with a NOS setup, more Oxygen, more oil, more potency.
When the metabolism is increased also weight will increase, and probably also cannabinoids level.

People seem to think that plants are going to gul up these carbs your dumping in the soil and then "they won't ahve to make their own" and will have "all that extra energy to build buds". In soil gardens people have reported increases in weight, vigor, etc, but how much of this is from an increase in available nutirents from increase microbial activity and how much is just placebo effect, I am not certain.

I perfectly agree with you here. I tried several times test on clones with and without sugars. The results were all the same, no relevant difference.
Plants has no need of sugars to make buds and everything.


Wheather you agree or not on what the supposed effects are, I can tell you this, adding molassis to a DWC is playing with fire. For me, loosing an entire crop to a massive slime outbreak (not too mention al that damn sterilizing afterwards) is not worth the supposed benefits.

I run DWC and RDWC quite a long time and never used molasses. But I still use a little of sugars till the early veg in my rez and nothing happen, never happened anything. I use bloei from Atami as sugars source. I tried once AN carboload and it was a mess in my system. Slime everywhere after 24 hours!!!
 
squiggly

squiggly

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Two things quickly to start:

First, as far as adding sugar to a DWC being a bad plan--I won't discount you there, it certainly does invite unwanted dance partners.

Second, as far as the chemistry goes--I apologize if it seems I'm trying to replace both hands on experience and all other scientific disciplines with chemistry. That is certainly not my intention. My only hope is for chemistry to be a part of the conversation--because it really is at the root (no pun intended). It is known as the central science for a reason :)

That said, I'll respond to a few of the things noted.

Because it was pointed out that chemistry is clunky and difficult to grasp without significant effort I'll include some links to youtube videos where I can which better explain the concepts. Additionally, I have--for some time--been compiling a chemistry primer and compendium aimed specifically at farmers. This guide (which is pending free time, something I'm a bit short on) will seek to leave nothing unturned and my hope is that it can become a liquid document which is added to by research from the community or any discussions which may come to light in a thread.

To start, we'll cover photosynthesis and the C3 pathway (glucose production).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUPugYBkNJQ&feature=related (Light Reactions)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5SRPeAHRpk (Dark Reactions)

After watching these videos it will be apparent that plants use a large amount of energy (both in the form of ATP and NADH+/NADPH+ reducing power). To produce glucose, and subsequently sucrose (glucose must also be phosphorylated to be joined with fructose to create sucrose).

Because of the nature of the proteins, thus far, which have been found to transport sucrose in roots (proton/potassium symports/antiports http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NewpaNwevFk ), it is easy to see that--energetically--it is cheap and beneficial to the plant for it to take in basically ANY sugar through this pathway. All sugars end up going through glycolysis when they are used for energy later. There are various shunts and offshoots to allow for maltose, fructose, and any number of other sugars to enter the pathway (these proteins are typically isomerases, or mutases--wiki them). Lactose intolerance stems from the lack of a starting protein in one such pathway (lactase, a hydrolase protein).

Here is a very detailed run through of glycolysis which I recommend-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5eMW4b29rg . For some insight, this video best describes and shows the way in which i really think of most of these processes. My training dictated that I memorize all these pathways, structures, enzymes, etc--and so it's hard for me not to want to use that info.

A second video discusses the Citric Acid Cycle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mS0rxDxnAc

The important info I really want you to see from this video is:

A. this is where the energy production really occurs from glycolysis.
B. If you look at the end of the video of the entire circle of cycle with all the intermediates listed I want to point out to you (without having to post 5 more videos) that virtually the entire left half of the big circle represent intermediates involved in: nucleotide production, amino acid synthesis, waste removal, fatty acid synthesis, you-name-it. This really is the starting point for most everything.

Ultimately once you've completely metabolized a molecule of glucose you end up with 36ATP if you do all the math (NADH is later used to create ATP).

For one molecule of sucrose that number will be 71ATP ( you lose 1 ATP molecule in comparison with breakdown of glucose if using fructose as a starting point--this is debatable because when glucose-fructose are split, one of the molecules will be already phosphorylated, you can also end up with more under certain conditions ~76ATP).

72 ATP is a lot of energy for 1 molecule brought in by what amounts to fancy diffusion. Especially considering that virtually everything the plant does insists upon this molecule. It costs about 18ATP per sugar molecule produce in photosynthesis. Sucrose being a disaccharide requires two turns of this wheel for 1 molecule so about 36 ATP.

The proteins in the electron transport chain (ECPs) must also be constantly regenerated, and so must chlorophyll, and the iron-sulfur centers involved, These are VERY expensive if we're talking on an ATP scale cytochrome c being the smallest (I'm pretty sure) of the ECP's is 100ish amino acid residues. Corresponding to at least four times that many molecules of ATP (assuming the needed amino acid was free-floating in the cell already). Cyctochrome b is 4 times as large and is not the only protein involved. Chlorophyll's and carotenoids are similarly large and expensive molecules to make, and are also not the only other non-protein compounds needed. All that considered, remember that the plant specializes for this process and does not even have access to light more than half of the time during flowering--and even during that time experiences peaks and valleys in photosynthetic productivity based on local concentrations of sugars, availability of nutrients, and need for regeneration of molecules/proteins. That is to say, plants are severely invested in sugars. Comparatively--the protein responsible for sucrose uptake is probably fairly large (I'm not going to look it up lol), but it will not need regeneration as often as electron carriers and the only needed chemicals to power it are readily available ions.

Forgetting that last bit (as hard as it should be to), per photosynthetic cycle the net resultant energy is about 72-36 = 36.

The efficiency is essentially doubled through uptake, and this is forgetting the huge process the plant undertakes otherwise to get its hands on glucose. It does not make sense that an organism would evolve from a one celled organism interested in this molecule and then select out against symports/antiports which do, more efficiently, the same job the entire rest of the multicelled organism is aimed at doing.

It makes sense that this process should happen--and that is probably why the research was done in the first place.

Now, that doesn't mean--and I never suggested it should--that putting a ton of sugar in your medium is going to save the day, or even be good for that matter. But from a biochemical, and even a biological point of view it stands to reason why a plant would do this.

If you want some examples of how this might be beneficial I'll conjecture for you:

1. More starting materials for protein synthesis, might aid in faster/more hearty root development.

2. As a result of 1 roots may respond better to stress. Often proteins/enzymes are the end product of a stress response, and they are intended to bring the cell back into a happy state. These can be produced, function, and degrade in under 1 minute numbering in the hundreds of thousands of proteins. A large amount of starting materials is absolutely essential for this process to go to its full potential.

3. More starting materials for waste removal--helps cell maintain concentration gradients, pH, and charge differential.

Those are just a few, and they would have an immediate impact on roots locally virtually as soon as uptake proceeded.

For a possibly bad thing (speaking only on the plant, of course this can invite unwelcome guests as has been stated), or good depending on how you look at it:

It's been shown feeding sucrose/glucose can suppress photosynthesis and cause leaf bleaching and breakdown of chlorophyll. This would be terrible early in the life of the plant--but could be good for those looking to make extracts where chlorophyll is an unwanted entity (and sugars are easy to remove).

For anyone wondering, yes leaves have also been shown capable of taking in sugars--but the same cautions apply with regard to microbial growth.

I never intended to be nasty, or even to claim to know-it-all. My favorite thing about myself is that I'm sure I don't know shit. I've always said--as was said to me by my grandfather--that science is mostly about making the best mistakes.

My only intention is to impart that same feeling about science to others. I think the LACK of that in the scientific community is exactly the reason why MJ has gone illegal for so long while somehow I can go buy a liter of Everclear down the block with the intention of drinking it and no one will try to stop me.
 
PrefersHam

PrefersHam

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hey squig you may like the kahn academy videos. They helped me memorize these processes too.

First I have an average understanding of chem. And an above average understanding of plant physiology. Now, you have definitely submitted a 6 point answer on a final however, im still a lil confused are you hypothesizing that plants up-take these complex molecules? or defending a previous post...im to lazy to read further.
 

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