im not into track racing more so into road racing, check out some of the other vids. these guys have balls.

DemonTrich said:

junk
i believe it was 42hz. for some reason, that's the sine I used to play.

I really like my old 960mp deck as it put out 2.5v per channel. I barely had my gain on my amps past 1/4 :) my current 860mp is the same way.

iirc I was competing from 03-08 in the Detroit area??? its been so long ago, 3 motorcycles, 2 motorcycle crashes, 2 surgeries and a few lbs of smoke I inhaled. lol

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I took a P9 combo, and took the faceplate apart and had it anodized black, just to get an extra point or two, so it would match the black plastic surround where the deck goes. 4v outputs



Here is one of the screens I had, and a playstation. At the time, this was not a common thing. I remember going to shows and people thought it was so cool


8" subs in the doors (JL8IB4) I would have put the 10's in, but they were too big.



Amp Rack iirc a 2k in the seat, the others are about 600 each. One amp for every set of drivers. Two of them are hybrid tube amps. This is back when U.S.Amps was the bomb.



Kick Panels (Seas Excel Lotus 6.5" and Hiquphon OW2's (Actually, In the pic is Morel Supremos, which I quickly got rid of)



Center Console w/down firing 12". Sub varied, Adire Audio Brahma, Image Dynamics IDmax, Resonant Engineering XXX, a lot of em

My ex-brother in law used to compete down in Florida before Hurricane Andrew destroyed his rig. Whenever that was lol, too young to really remember that one. Seeing you guys sound set ups definitely motivates me to understand it a bit more.

So that brings to question this. I currently have a (shitty) Pioneer 400 12 inch "Free Air" sub in a standard Walmart box (not tuned to shit.) ran by a 400 watt (again, shitty) Dual amp. Nevermind the amp as it only puts out 380 RMS bridged (which I have it wired as currently.) My question is this, with this "Free Air" sub, would it potentially hit harder if I figured out a way to mount it without the box? I've researched the subject a little and couldn't find any definitive answers. Or would I be better off calculating the volume of the car (19 cu. ft. minus the two front seats to be exact) it is in and building a tuned box for this specific sub? It hits, just not as hard as I would think it could. Thoughts?

Free air, or infinite baffle is basically designed not to be in a box. It's designed to be mounted to a rear deck or the like & use the trunk as it's enclosure.

Those 8's I had in my doors are Infinite Baffle. But my doors were very large internally.

So you can put it in a box, but the box will need to be large. Most likely what is happening right now is: that suspension system (I didn't look at the t/s parameters) is designed to operate in a large enclosure. Infinitely large. The only thing you really need to make sure of with IB drivers is that the rear wave is isolated from the front wave.

If it's in a ported box, depending on what the port is tuned to (if anything intentional) you are losing low end output. Because, let's say the port is tuned to 40hz, at 38hz & below, the enclosure is no longer working with the suspension system. A normal sub will bottom out trying to create frequencies below the port tune, it's called "unloading." An un-scientific way of explaining it is that the sub has back pressure for frequencies above 40hz. But if you get a few hz below that port tune, & there is no more back pressure. So the suspension will just bottom out, or unload. Alternatively, the back pressure above 40hz is too much for an IB sub.

That's why a lot of sub amps come with subsonic filters. Their sole purpose is to cut out frequencies below your port value, so that you don't destroy your sub. To tune a port to a very low frequency, so that you don't run into this problem is difficult. The lower you tune it, the larger & longer the port needs to be. I built one once tuned to 20hz. I don't have pics of it but it was about 4'x4'x3', for one sub. That's why most are tuned to 40-50hz. Not only do people like that frequency, but it's impractical to build an enclosure that is tuned lower.

What is likely saving you from the bottoming out (it will make a loud knocking sound as the sub reaches it's mechanical limits) is the suspension of an IB designed sub. It's different than a standard sub, so it's probably stiff enough that you aren't bottoming out. Regardless, you don't want it in that box.

It definitely does not want to be in the box you have it in. Changing it to a sealed enclosure of at least equal, but preferably larger size (you can go as big as you want) will make a big difference. Or you can do a true IB install & let it use the trunk as the enclosure.

That type of box, is fighting that sub.

Hope that makes sense.

rasta good shit bro

heres a vid of me testing at grattan raceway in belding Mi years ago on my built 07 gsxr 600
was shooting for a 1:30 lap personal record. which is damn fast (advanced group race time)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EPPZXmzXvHs

@Junk thank you! That explained a lot. I'm familiar with unloading, a friend that competes around the four corners warned me of it. The box it is in is a sealed box, not much larger than the sub itself. I'll see if I can find a link to it on the web so you can see the dimensions. Luckily I never hear it unloading but I have my gain set fairly low and use the EQ on the stereo to achieve the depth I want. The one thing I've noticed is with low frequencies, there's like no girth to the bass. It's just flat, no vibration or anything. With a mid tone bass, it shakes shit though. Considering the box is sealed, what is the potential damage that can occur to the sub as a result? I'll snap some pictures of what I have going on once this rain lets up and I can open the hatch. No trunk on this car lol, it's a coupe.

Once upon a time I had software to calculate port size and volume of the enclosure and all that but the math involved was a bit more than I could chew. Also couldn't find specific numbers for the sub I have. It's an older sub from the mid 2000's I would say. Got it for free off of CL. Ya'll that are serious about this stuff are some serious mofo's! Respect for sure.

Sad thing is, I was running two 12" Rockford Fosgate off a 600w Fosgate amp and an 8" bazooka sub off a pioneer 400w amp in my dodge ram 1500 single cab and it didn't hit as hard as this single does in my little datsun. Probably had something to do with the shitty enclosures I had those in though.

DemonTrich said:

rasta good shit bro

heres a vid of me testing at grattan raceway in belding Mi years ago on my built 07 gsxr 600
was shooting for a 1:30 lap personal record. which is damn fast (advanced group race time)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EPPZXmzXvHs

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I hope that explained it well. I just re-read it & will adjust something that might make it more sensible.

How long was the track? Not a lot of run off room there lol.

I don't know the track, & I have never raced bikes (motorized anyway) but the turn at 1:07 & 1:31 it looks like if you came in a tad slower & apexed earlier you could shave some time.

You ever read Speed Secrets? I forget the author, but it's pretty easy to find. After reading that book I finally beat the track record at the local kart racing track.

Cool to meet a fellow racer. I love racing. L-o-v-e i-t!

tobh said:

@Junk thank you! That explained a lot. I'm familiar with unloading, a friend that competes around the four corners warned me of it. The box it is in is a sealed box, not much larger than the sub itself. I'll see if I can find a link to it on the web so you can see the dimensions. Luckily I never hear it unloading but I have my gain set fairly low and use the EQ on the stereo to achieve the depth I want. The one thing I've noticed is with low frequencies, there's like no girth to the bass. It's just flat, no vibration or anything. With a mid tone bass, it shakes shit though. Considering the box is sealed, what is the potential damage that can occur to the sub as a result? I'll snap some pictures of what I have going on once this rain lets up and I can open the hatch. No trunk on this car lol, it's a coupe.

Once upon a time I had software to calculate port size and volume of the enclosure and all that but the math involved was a bit more than I could chew. Also couldn't find specific numbers for the sub I have. It's an older sub from the mid 2000's I would say. Got it for free off of CL. Ya'll that are serious about this stuff are some serious mofo's! Respect for sure.

Sad thing is, I was running two 12" Rockford Fosgate off a 600w Fosgate amp and an 8" bazooka sub off a pioneer 400w amp in my dodge ram 1500 single cab and it didn't hit as hard as this single does in my little datsun. Probably had something to do with the shitty enclosures I had those in though.

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If it's in a small sealed enclosure it's just being suffocated. That's the lack of volume with lower frequencies.

What's happening is the sub needs to move a lot of air to recreate 30hz. It can't, because the enclosure is so small it's creating a "suction" effect. It won't let the sub travel as much as it needs to. But higher bass notes that don't require as much air movement it will have less of a problem with.

You won't damage the sub like that unless you over power it. The problem is, the sub cools itself with movement, so you essentially are lowering the rms wattage the sub can handle before the voice coil melts.

The coupe thing: That is what I meant about the front wave being isolated from the back wave. You could mount it to the rear deck, or anyplace really, so long as the rear is firing into one cabin & the front wave into another.

I have the software to calculate box/port size.

Put it in a significantly larger box & it will be a totally different sub. The other thing you could try is Aperiodic Membrane. I ran a lot of things this way. If you don't have a way to mount it like a true infinite baffle, you can sneak around it by going Aperiodic Membrane.

I used to compete in db drag and meca. Spl tho. Let see if I can find a YouTube vid

My old Rockford van..

junk, I used to run out of gas (personally exhausted) after about 5 laps. especially in 90* temps and doing a full sat/sun track weekend. and I hate passing some riders as most go above their skill level when registering for classes (Novice, Intermediate, Advanced).

lollipopman said:

My old Rockford van..

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What did you used to hit? I would swear I was there when that video was taken lol

@Junk it was either 159.8 or 158.9 been so long can't remember.

I've been thinking about building another van. I do miss it. Just sucks sponsorship ain't what it used to be

DemonTrich said:

junk, I used to run out of gas (personally exhausted) after about 5 laps. especially in 90* temps and doing a full sat/sun track weekend. and I hate passing some riders as most go above their skill level when registering for classes (Novice, Intermediate, Advanced).

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It's exhausting. The STI, I put the A/C back in, but of course you can't use it or you lose a couple HP. It's hot, sweaty, your adrenaline is going.

I hope that didn't come off as disrespectful. What I meant to say was you were using the same lines I would have (except when other racers popped up, the first one I was like, "What the?" I thought you were on the track by yourself!

Just those two turns I would have come slower in, apexed earlier, to get to a faster top speed out. You will more than make up the "slower in" with the "faster out/faster top speed on the straight." Just a fellow racer looking at your lines.

Please don't take it as criticism, I wouldn't have the balls to hit that track they way you were. That lean is crazy. All I mean to get across is you did the same lines I would have, except for those two.

The best racer I have ever seen told me something one time. When I say he is the best racer, the local Kart place, I am always within .09 of at least tying the all time lap record. This guy raced all his life, boats, cars, karts, jet ski's, bikes...anything. When me & the crew go to the kart place, I am the one everyone wants to beat, but they can't do it. They don't even look at him. I do. But I will carry speed through every corner, good lines etc. This guy, & I'm being dead serious. Will get so far ahead of me, he will stop his kart under the tunnel where there are no cameras & wait for me. I will pass him, & he is at a dead stop. Within 1/2 a lap, he has passed me again. This is not a kart thing, this is every time we have ever gone there, in every kart (you all switch karts between races).

I asked him one time, "If I'm so close to beating the track record (I mean hundredths of a second), & you are stopping every other lap so that you can overtake me, why don't you just crush the lap record?" I beat it by .1, eventually. He could have beaten it by well over a second. It was amazing. It was like we weren't even driving the same karts, even though sometimes we swapped kart for kart. He would still overtake me like it was nothing. Only a fellow racer could understand. It was, quite literally, like you & a friend being on the exact same bike racing a track. & he gets so far ahead that he stops so you can fly by him. 1/2 a lap later, he passes you like it was nothing.

Anyway, the two best things he taught me were this:

If possible, physically walk the entire length of the track, on your feet, walking. Look at the corners, where you want to apex, basically figure out your lines, while standing up, walking the track. You don't get the same view/perspective when you are riding something.

The second was to read this book

http://www.amazon.com/Speed-Secrets-Professional-Driving-Techniques/dp/0760305188

The first one, walking the track...I wasn't very excited about. But it really works. You will knock considerable time off your laps if you walk the track first & figure out your lines that way. I don't know why...all I know is the fastest guy I have ever met, ON ANYTHING, said that is the first "trick." He is right. I was instantly faster.

The book is very good. You probably know most of it already, but the way he explains it gives you a knew/better understanding. It's really a phenomenal book. After reading that, I set a new lap record at the kart place (not a personal record, the fastest lap done on that track.

Funny thing is when I beat the record, I came around the corner & under the tunnel, & he was waiting there. He could have smashed the track record, but he left it for me. That's how good he is. You know how when you play a game with kids, you often let them win? Of course you could win, but it's not really a fair competition. That's how he is with racing. I'm the fastest guy in our group, by far. I'm not even close to being competition for him. Not even close. I don't know how he does it.

nope went out 1st with a couple WERA experts trying to get 5 seconds off my personal best. then caught up to lap traffic and was running out of gas, and that F'n liter bike wouldn't get the hell out my way which slowed me down a bit. I had very strong points at certain spots on the track. its where I set a lot of people up for passes.

Got the thread title changed... Thanks @Seamaiden !!

Any & all gear heads welcome!!!

Alright, got a pic of my measly little sub lol. It's a (very outdated) Pioneer 12" TS-W33C. Can't find anything about it online now, but will eventually find the specs for it.


And the head unit. Don't know much about it either, was gifted to me by my brother. Works quite well, pretty sure it outputs 52W per channel, have it powering two 3 1/2" Kicker speakers in the dash, two 5" Infiniti woofers behind the seats and two small Boss speakers near the doors. I know that last part is bad from the Ohm's perspective but the Boss speakers can handle it fine.



Ain't nothing fancy like ya'll with your competition set ups, that's for damn sure lol.

Was reading about infinite baffles and Aperiodic Enclosures. Now to figure out how the hell to build one in this car. XD love me a thinker project!

off roading with the great lakes 4x4 club with the Dakota quad cab that out performs hummer h3t who got pulled out 25 times that day, and me only 3x. they had lockers and all the works, me, just plain ole dodge 4x4 and 31" nitto terra grappplers. :)

DemonTrich said:

off roading with the great lakes 4x4 club with the Dakota quad cab that out performs hummer h3t who got pulled out 25 times that day, and me only 3x. they had lockers and all the works, me, just plain ole dodge 4x4 and 31" nitto terra grappplers. :)

View attachment 528267 View attachment 528268

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Those Nitto's are some serious tires! Had some on my Dodge, those things are excellent.

I got 65000 on my last set (ALOT of hwy miles towing a 7x14 trainer loaded with 4 bikes, bike in the bed and 5 ppl and ALL our gear to the race track. i liked them so much, I bought another set last winter. they are excellent in the snow, great for off roading, little road noise (although I like the road hummm), and get great mileage.

10 psi in the snow
15 in the mud