CINDARELLA99 said:

Soserthc1, are those spikes you talking about,is that like those miracle gro ones? Always wonderwd if you could use that with cannabis.

I cut off a branch and saw this....is this a flower? Does this mean hermie?

Click to expand...

Miracle gro... Is like hail storms and hermies a lot of people don't like those topics, here at the farm we'll talk about it fight about and make up lol

CINDARELLA99 said:

Soserthc1, are those spikes you talking about,is that like those miracle gro ones? Always wonderwd if you could use that with cannabis.

I cut off a branch and saw this....is this a flower? Does this mean hermie?

Click to expand...

That pollen bomb has been detonated! Expect some beans unless you chopped that hermie proper!

Classic Remix said:

Okay I have one...

How much does environment play a role is seedlings potential?? And what I mean is


If I made wifi, and had healthy viable seeds, how close of the offspring would they be, to say raskals cross. I understand the possibilities of finding different stuff, but I'm talking on the front side.... If two people in two completely different environments made the exact same cross w the same cuts, would you be able to tell the difference.

Click to expand...

I think so...especially if the difference is high stress..you might get more herms and mutants. I think if you use the exact same parents and reverse using exactly same methods..you should get the same results though. I think OGR is a bad example though cause the main fire og floating around isn't the same as raskal's og, only sharing the same name...I see a ton of people making claim they have the same cut but it never looks like it..lol.

ttystikk said:

The crosses themselves would be statistically the same; the keepers chosen would likely differ based on their response to the environmental conditions.

P.S. This is not a dumb question, so please ask it in another thread. LOL, j/k!

Click to expand...

This is the correct answer with an added caveat:

Cannabis has been shown, empirically, to display exceedingly high levels of genetic polymorphism which is to say that once the progeny are grown out it wouldn't be unexpected to see a markedly different performance from even a similar phenotype in the different environments.

Which is to say that the "fruity pebbles cereal pheno" might be awesome in one person's environment and be total shit in someone elses.

However, this should be taken with a grain of salt according to some forum members who believe that I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about when it comes to genetics. So you'll have to make your own judgment on whether to believe me, thousands of botanists the world over, and peer-reviewed scientific data and research--or them and their baseless assumptions :) .

Edit:

The megagametophyte (ovum) and microgametophyte (pollen) can perform differently based on environment (increased moisture level or air flow as a for instance)--so the statistical dispersion of genes CAN be affected by this, but this would generally be seen as a shift along a genetic spectrum (ie a padding/thinning of the statistics in a particular area of expression) instead of a drastic change in its overall form.

oh but squiggly, they read it on the internet! You know it can't be wrong!

ttystikk said:

oh but squiggly, they read it on the internet! You know it can't be wrong!

Click to expand...

No no no, they've guessed the meaning of things based on their "experience". If they'd read it on the internet there's actually a better chance they'd have been closer to correct than randomly guessing they know what's happening from looking at an organism.

Classic as hard as it would be to replicate it you also have a chance to improve it! Have fun trying.

Hmm.. Mr. Watershed..

Like your thread...

What my "Edit" above means in short is that yes, environment can change the offspring outcomes of a cross. The factors which can affect this are many.

Like check out this picture of this pollen sac:



Notice how some of the pollen grains are bigger/smaller/differently shaped. This is common in plants. So some of these grains might attach or travel to the ovum better under certain conditions. Others might do better with higher/lower humidity or higher/lower heat.

So yes your suspicion is warranted, environment can definitely play a role. The reason that "statistically" there is no difference is that statistics focus on a very very large population and these types of conditions tend to balance each other out over a large enough sample size. This is why it's important to do large selections to find the best stock. The "diamond-in-the-rough" can be hid among millions of possible offspring.

squiggly said:

What my "Edit" above means in short is that yes, environment can change the offspring outcomes of a cross. The factors which can affect this are many.

Like check out this picture of this pollen sac:



Notice how some of the pollen grains are bigger/smaller/differently shaped. This is common in plants. So some of these grains might attach or travel to the ovum better under certain conditions. Others might do better with higher/lower humidity or higher/lower heat.

So yes your suspicion is warranted, environment can definitely play a role. The reason that "statistically" there is no difference is that statistics focus on a very very large population and these types of conditions tend to balance each other out over a large enough sample size. This is why it's important to do large selections to find the best stock. The "diamond-in-the-rough" can be hid among millions of possible offspring.

Click to expand...

Great phocking post bro!

Squiggly did you ever chime in on rather water killed pollen or not? On contact that is?

Or I mean water touching pollen making it not viable? At any stage? Not sure how too word the ? But you know what I mean.

Indeed, the statistics I was referring to included only the statistics related to the random chance of genetic selection in a sexual reproductive process. Exclusive of environmental influences.

As usual, Squiggly has taught me something; it had never occurred to me that the size or shape of pollen gains might drive different phenotypes based on environmental factors. Fascinating stuff!

caveman4.20 said:

Squiggly did you ever chime in on rather water killed pollen or not? On contact that is?

Click to expand...

It will kill most pollen due to the hypotonic nature of pure water. The inside of pollen grains has a much higher salt concentration, this cause water to freely flow across their membrane (and to prefer to do this to equalize osmotic pressure across the same). Ultimately the pollen grain will burst (die) from the increased amount of water it takes on.

What it doesn't kill it will immobilize until such a time as it dies.

To understand hypotonic/hypertonic solutions and osmotic pressure across membranes i suggest watching this brief video:

I can't stream well but ill try to see the video later.... So hypothetically spraying flowers often without getting too humid could prevent seeds in flowers ?

caveman4.20 said:

I can't stream well but ill try to see the video later.... So hypothetically spraying flowers often without getting too humid could prevent seeds in flowers ?

Click to expand...

It's only 2 minutes long so shouldn't be difficult.

Saw it hmmmm might need to go to another thread....so what's the % in the video in terms of tds or ppm? Ps the first comment was a joke lol peace!

caveman4.20 said:

Saw it hmmmm might need to go to another thread....so what's the % in the video in terms of tds or ppm? Ps the first comment was a joke lol peace!

Click to expand...

We would talk about this in terms of EC to be more precise because this is a better measure of ionic strength which is really what drives osmosis.


Let's make two assumptions to discuss this:

1. Outside and inside the cell have equal starting volumes

2. The cell membrane has infinite elasticity (ie it won't burst and it shrinks to fit the volume)

So if you had inside the cell is 5.0EC and outside is 2.5EC (hypotonic solution) water will go into the cell until both inside and outside of the cell become isotonic to each other. This means they will split the difference (because they start at equal volume)

So the cell will increase in size and the volume outside the cell with decrease and we'll end up with an EC of 3.75EC.

If we flip that argument and say inside the cell is 2.5EC and outside is 5.0EC (a hypertonic solution) the cell will shrink as water flows out of it and the volume of water outside the cell will thus increase. This concentrates the solutes inside the cell and dilutes the solutes outside of it. This is the basis of how osmosis works. This all happens because of entropy. Again the final concentration here will yield an EC of 3.75.

Another way to remember this is that water will osmose to a place of lower salt concentration to one of higher salt concentration.

This is why salt is good for curing things--adding salt to the outside of the meat/other product cause the moisture to be drawn out as it travels from an area of lower concentration to an area of higher concentration. What could be more concentrated than pure salt? This is how I remember what osmosis is (keeping in mind the process of salt curing).

Once again while this all seems so complicated it highlights something which is pretty ubiquitous in chemistry. This idea that everything operates on equilibrium or balance. Osmotic pressure only drives work (movement of water) until the osmotic force from either side of a membrane is equalized. The solution on either side of a membrane wants to be isotonic--and it only drives movement of water in either direction until that balance is met.

Think of shaking up a can of soda. This builds up pressure inside the can. When you open it it ejects soda rapidly because of the huge pressure difference inside and outside of the can. It stops shooting soda out once the pressure has equalized.

Or think of an airlock being opened in space, it sucks all the air out into the vaccum of space until the pressure is equalized. Once all the air is sucked out there will be no more tendency for things to be "pulled" out of the spaceship.

You can think of the reverse argument as opening the hatch of a submarine underwater. There is huge pressure difference from the water vs the inside of the submarine. The water will rush around knocking everyone and everything over with immense force until the pressure has equalized. Once the submarine is full of water--if you had a scuba tank on you'd be free to swim around inside of it, the flow of water would have stopped.

Of course these are governed by barometric and hydrostatic pressure respectively--but osmotic pressure isn't all that different, it's just controlled by a different type of force.

Reminds me of adjusting ph ... So pollen is destroyed in the attempt to balance out moisture or what's in the moisture rather so how does that not happen in nature? Is it that in out door there's is that much more pollen that it doesn't matter that most of it is destroyed in morning dew or rains ....