The Whole Earth in a Container- Organic Soil and Nutrient Strategies

[GanjaGardener]

Nice!

 

[GanjaGardener]

Nothing like some bud shots to liven things up a bit.

I wish I could tell you that the bud pics are from my grow but alas, these are shots of an 8 pound Black Congolese that my friend is growing and the plant that I got my cuts from.

My cuts:

The bar that's been set for me:
For perspective- 8 LB yield estimate, grew to roof (12'-15'?) had to be trained down and later supported as the weight filled in. Largest colas- 36" x 10"

Once I get mine to look like this, I might really have some good info to share w/ you. :D

In the meantime I'm going to open up a grow thread so I'm not mixing paints w/ this one.

http://cuaes.cornell.edu/index.cfm

OK. Here's a shot of Chem 88's (Hawaiian Diesel) from my last run:

 

[HumboldtDr]

thanks for the info. and another recomendation for Malibu compost!!

 

[ShutUpDonny]

Really enjoying this thread, all.

As a newbie who has just moved from the big city to a spot where I can and do actually make my own compost your ideas and techniques are getting my mind racing. I'll try to do more reading and less random questioning, as I am just barely smart enough to know that I know nothing about this topic. But if you'll permit me just one tiny question, I'd appreciate it.

Since my compost is only 6 weeks old at this point I'll be ordering up some of Malibu's finest. I will be making a tea out of it along with the Ca/Mg, B1, molasses, and EWC I have on hand. Question being, will this provide sufficient amounts of both enzymes and microorganisms? I'm still a little uncertain as to which come from which additives, but I'm thinking that compost is a good source for both. But if you guys had to add one more ingredient to the mix, what would it be? Thanks!

Digging the soundtrack, GG! Keep it up!

 

[GanjaGardener]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIhlOjmwHXU[/YOUTUBE]

 

[GanjaGardener]

http://malibucompost.com/

 

[ShutUpDonny]

Is the compost still moist by the time it reaches you? I worry about the following...

Link to PDF

 

[GanjaGardener]

Hi Donny
I bypassed using bags or a kit because when I was learning how to make the stuff, I couldn't afford either. lemons->lemonade and all.

Didn't catch "Malibu's finest" 1st time around, ergo the link^.

I'm not quite sure what you meant by "drying out". There are some other ingredients that I would suggest you add to your recipe. Dropped back into night shift and am barely awake, ATM. Will get back with suggestions and some Farm links. Maybe someone else has an angle that they'll share, too.

PS thanks for the pdf homework. lol

 

[ShutUpDonny]

Stay strong, GG! I'm subscribed, so by all means focus on getting ready for work and I'll check back in in a few days.
Yeah, I finally figured out how to a) make a link that actually looks like a link and b) google questions I have instead making you all do the heavy lifting on my behalf. I'll try to stick to it!

What I meant about drying is - Is the Malibu compost still moist when it arrives in the mail?
I live in the desert nearer TX than CA, and assume that having it shipped will mean that it cooks inside of UPS trucks for a few days before I see it. I bought a few bags of local compost and it turned out to be a lot of dry woodchips and clumps of dry dirt, not the rich black humus we turned out when I was a kid on the family farm. Even if there is nutritional value in something like that I assume it takes a lot of microbial work before it's viable plant food. And according to that PDF, allowing it to dry out kills off a lot of those microbes instead of harnessing them.
If I order the stuff it's pretty much just to make tea out of, so having it show up happy, active, and moist seems pretty important. At least from my vantage point of ignorance it does... Please correct me if you think I'm off base!

 

[GanjaGardener]

You know what? You've got me stumped on that one. I used to get Malibu compost by the truckload when I was bioscaping/terracing my old property and still live close enough to pick it up from their facility. Never got it in a bag. Also never gave much thought to the portability aspect. Good question as it applies to several other products. I don't know which micros might die off, if any, and what % would lie dormant. Hmm....

mrbong uses it and maybe he gets his in bag form. mr bong?

 

[GanjaGardener]

Ran across this email that I my friend Colum over @ Malibu Compost shot back to me a couple of months ago. A little late w/ the follow up, but the info is still good. :)

Hey Colum
What effect (if any) do high temps have on the micros inside a bag while
being shipped to a hot climate, ie on a truck in transit through a 120
degree Arizona desert?
Happy Microherding
M

Hi M,

Our biodynamic compost is made using a natural windrow method, and after screening the compost finishes its maturation process in curing piles. This way it is not stored in plastic bags and can live and breathe. When we receive an order, we bag and ship to the warehouse just in time so the product is as fresh as possible. Our bags also have holes in them to allow the compost to breathe.
Because of this process and the finished maturity of the product, the micros are not really affected; the external temperature has little effect in the short term on the compost.
We have had a couple funny experiences with our compost tea however! Left a case of compost tea bags out in the Fresno sun, and the temps caused enough condensation in the bags to build up, so the moisture and oxygen woke up the microbes enough to make them hungry, and the only thing for them to eat was our biodegradable packaging, which they ate right through!

That's why I begrudgingly put aside my eco-guilt and package our compost in plastic, so it can preserve the life and vitality within the bag.

All of this said, if the product were stored for a long time in a warehouse or other such environment with these conditions I'm sure it would have an adverse impact on the microbial populations, but again, not too much. The microbes need water and oxygen in order to wake up from their dormancy, and there's simply not enough moisture or oxygen in the bag to create these conditions.

Great question though! If I learn anything more I will certainly pass it on.

Happy Gardening!

Best,

Colum

 

[FatBoy808]

I've been following this thread on and off, mostly because I get confused & overwhelmed, but every time I come back to it I understand it a little more. To apply this knowledge is still pretty challenging, but I take it in small increments.

I just want to thank everyone who contributes to this thread. I myself am fairly new to organics, and growing in general, since my past experience was all about yield & profits, I never really learned how to grow.

Since I started growing again, I've tried my best to rely on organic products, and I'm a happy that I've taken this approach. I'm only now learning about the benefits of building a good soil with a strong network of microbes, and although I still use bottled nutes (organic) I'm starting to use it with less frequency.

I have yet to brew an ACT, and the Poultice recipe seems very enticing, but I'll get there eventually. I look forward to learning from you guys, and I hope one day I'll have some input of my own, please keep up the good work.
Aloha, Fats

 

[GanjaGardener]

Cool bro and [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]Hau’oli Lanui!
The recipe that I came up with, (or fell into- not sure which), for the early-mid veg cycle (ie from cells->4" and 4" -> 1gal transplants),is going to be implemented into the programs of some grower/associate/bros who know a hell of a lot more about what they're looking at than I do, so there's something in the mix that I was outlining above that's working.


[/FONT]

 

[FatBoy808]

Cool bro and [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]Hau’oli Lanui!

Whoooa, Braddah... You know Hawaiian :party0044: Right on.
Hau'oli Lanui to you too:boogie:

The recipe that I came up with, (or fell into- not sure which), for the early-mid veg cycle (ie from cells->4" and 4" -> 1gal transplants),is going to be implemented into the programs of some grower/associate/bros who know a hell of a lot more about what they're looking at than I do, so there's something in the mix that I was outlining above that's working.


[/FONT]

That's cooool :icon_spin: :rasta2:
Yeah, that recipe looked killah. And so did your plants. The Black Congolese makes my mouth water :confused0054:
And that D13 too.
How long have you been using that dunk method of yours???
And where do you source the ingredients for the poutice???
I'm going to be transplant soon and I'd like to give it a try.

I don't wanna get too far off topic, but can you tell me about the Chem 88 (Hawaiian Diesel)???

Oh, and what does 'poutice' mean anyways??? :help:
Aloha, Fats

 

[GanjaGardener]

Don't mean to disappoint, but I don't speak Hawaiian , bro. Was just wishing you Happy Holidays in ʻŌlelo Hawaiʻi.

a 'poutice'? Did I mispell 'poultice'? Oops. Prolly shoulda just stuck w/ 'slurry'. I don't use it during early-mid veg anymore- the plant gets everything in the mix (that I was referring to ^^) except for N which is ridden according to the individual plant, pheno or strain.

What are you growing, what substrate are you presently growing in and what nutes are you using? What is your experience level? Because you are a new to organic growing, I'd advise you not to dive in here and I'd particularly advise you not to use any of the techniques piecemeal as they are part of a larger integrated program. You should also know that there's a large contingency of organic growers (ie soil webbers) who would question the efficacy of the homemade fermented nutes that I use and that are central to my program.

I can help you w/ some thread links that will get you started and answer some of your questions if you wish.

 

[FatBoy808]

Don't mean to disappoint, but I don't speak Hawaiian , bro. Was just wishing you Happy Holidays in ʻŌlelo Hawaiʻi.

That's cool, nether do I, but it's nice to speak to someone with Aloha spirit.

a 'poutice'? Did I mispell 'poultice'? Oops. Prolly shoulda just stuck w/ 'slurry'. I don't use it during early-mid veg anymore- the plant gets everything in the mix (that I was referring to ^^) except for N which is ridden according to the individual plant, pheno or strain.

Actually I think I misspelled it:sun
But slurry is a lot easier:mmm

What are you growing, what substrate are you presently growing in and what nutes are you using? What is your experience level? Because you are a new to organic growing, I'd advise you not to dive in here and I'd particularly advise you not to use any of the techniques piecemeal as they are part of a larger integrated program. You should also know that there's a large contingency of organic growers (ie soil webbers) who would question the efficacy of the homemade fermented nutes that I use and that are central to my program.

I can help you w/ some thread links that will get you started and answer some of your questions if you wish.

I'm growing in soil, Roots Organics potting soil to be exact. I don't know what the breakdown of the soil is, as far as ratios. I basically use water-only these days, with an occasional feeding of EJ grow, or some molasses with EM1, not because they're deficient, but just to give them a little something extra. Most of my nutes are in the soil, and consist of guanos, glacial rock dust, bone meal, blood meal, dolomite, kelp meal. And lately I've been adding some mixed dry nutes like FF/Happy Frog to balance out the K

My experience level, I would say I'm above a novice level, but far from a expert. Thanks for the advice of not using the techniques by piecemeal, I'm definitely trying to put together a program, but it's hard because I'm always tweaking it.

I've never used a fermented nute before, but I did use bokashi ounce, I don't why I did that??? And it had some very interesting effects. Everything that I planted in that batch of soil developed unusual structure. Very short nodes with lots of shoots, but spindly stems:dull
I'm not sure what to make of it since at the time I had no knowledge of orgaincs, but I'd like to try it again in the future.

Again, mahalo, for the advice.
Fats

 

[GanjaGardener]

... I'm growing in soil, Roots Organics potting soil to be exact. I don't know what the breakdown of the soil is, as far as ratios. I basically use water-only these days, with an occasional feeding of EJ grow, or some molasses with EM1, not because they're deficient, but just to give them a little something extra. Most of my nutes are in the soil, and consist of guanos, glacial rock dust, bone meal, blood meal, dolomite, kelp meal. And lately I've been adding some mixed dry nutes like FF/Happy Frog to balance out the K...

'A'ole pilikia and Aloha energy to you.

Looks to me like you've got a good thing going, Fats. The Mandala program calls for a quality, well balanced, bagged soil mix to carry most of the weight w/ light nute doses being used only as needed. Other than N, hat's essentially what I'm doing w/ my grow/veg mix. When i transplant from 1 gal-> 3gal/ 5gal, however, the coco/ricehull base % goes up and the plants become more reliant on feeding. I use the same, every 3rd day, feeding schedule as Alien Seeds: Dry->Water->Feed; Dry->Water->Feed.

I've never used a fermented nute before, but I did use bokashi ounce, I don't why I did that???

You could work a bottled fermented catalyst (enzymes/amino acids/microbes and/or algae based) into your current program as an addie. I’ve used the first 4 products on the list and plan on trying out some of the others when my current supply of home brews begins to dwindle.

Hygrozyme
Catalyst (Earth Juice)
Pura Vida Grow 6-4-3, Pura Vida Bloom 2-6-6 Technaflora
Rhizotonic, Cannazyme Canna
Organa-Add 2-0-0 Natures Nectar
PreBloom; Seafuel and Seaweed Bloom Yellow Bottles
.

...And it had some very interesting effects. Everything that I planted in that batch of soil developed unusual structure. Very short nodes with lots of shoots, but spindly stems:dull
I'm not sure what to make of it since at the time I had no knowledge of orgaincs, but I'd like to try it again in the future.

Again, mahalo, for the advice.
Fats

On Sunday, I handed off a gallon each of my "Grow" and "Bloom" ferments, 20 gallons of the inoculated rice hulls, (process outlined above^^) and a bag of crab meal to a fellow grower who likes the results I've been getting. He and another grower are going to use my application rates for brew, and the infused RHs and crab meal ratios that I use in a mix. Between the 3 of us, we are going to try to isolate, by addition and subtraction, what I've been doing to make my soil cook and give the microbes such a powerful boost at this growth stage- specifically what's factoring into the hormonal/auxin activity as evidenced in the vigorous and earlier than normal branch development and apical activity. Something in there has got at least one branch of the microherd excited.

At present, we've narrowed it down to two factors- the microbe consortium in the ferment and/or a high level of chitin activity that comes from my liberal use of crab meal which I use in the mix, sprinkle in transplant holes and as one of the main food sources in the ferments.

Development has been enhanced in every strain I've used it with exception of the smaller, bushier Afghans. Afgooey and an Afgooey hybrid didn't like it at all- they became extremely bushy, leafy, had poor lateral branching, overly tight internode spacing. It was real struggle to get them to the flwring room- basically had to reveg them for all intents and purposes.

I pulled this little blurb off of the Washington State Ag Dept site that gives a little intro into one of the plant processes that I've been exploring to help me fill in what the plants have already been telling me in the field.:

On the cellular level, auxin is essential for cell growth, affecting both cell division and cellular expansion. Auxin concentration level, together with other local factors, contributes to cell differentiation and specification of the cell fate.

Depending on the specific tissue, auxin may promote axial elongation (as in shoots), lateral expansion (as in root swelling), or isodiametric expansion (as in fruit growth). In some cases (coleoptile growth), auxin-promoted cellular expansion occurs in the absence of cell division. In other cases, auxin-promoted cell division and cell expansion may be closely sequenced within the same tissue (root initiation, fruit growth). In a living plant, auxins and other plant hormones nearly always appear to interact to determine patterns of plant development.

No matter the program, the nutes, the soil mix, the area of emphasis or one's persuasion, in organic growing, all paths lead to the health, balance and activity of microbes in the soil.

 

[GanjaGardener]

Happy Winter Solstice. Only 38 weeks away from rw 12x12 depending upon where you're sitting.

What a beautiful day it is here on the Cali Coast! I'm admittedly feeling a little giddy today- I've finished the bulk of the work on the grow room remodel project that I started in the summer, my new room addition is ready to go, (it's only missing a couple of items... ie ballasts and reflectors ~==lol), I'm in the middle of harvesting my first run in 7 months, the drying room is filling up and, ahhh... the dank has returned.

Some stuff that I've been thinking about...
Products to add to the list:
Dark Energy
is an L-amino acids product that's also on the bucket list.
Primordial Solutions, Sea Green is a product that I will be adding to the regimen soon. Cyanobacteria, (“blue-green algae”) is a unique product and a departure from anything that I've worked w/ before. A respected grower friend turned me onto it and I want to see wazzup w/ it.
Sea Green:
Primordial Solutions, Inc., has developed a technology that is designed to restore soil fertility, water retention, and reduce erosion without relying on the presence of vascular plants. Instead, we exploit photosynthetic microorganisms, called cyanobacteria or “blue-green algae,” which convert solar energy to stored chemical energy, and fix atmospheric nitrogen (N 2) into usable ammonia (NH3). The fixed nitrogen is ultimately incorporated into proteins and nucleic acids, biopolymers essential to life. Throughout the world, cyanobacteria, lichens, bacteria, and fungi, establish selfsufficient microbial communities called “Biological Soil Crusts” (BSC). In the American southwest, BSC are responsible for 99% of the nitrogen input, represent up to 70% of the living ground cover, improve the nutritional value of forage plants, improve water retention, and control erosion. However, following a disturbance, the BSC are slow to recover. Recovery estimates range from 4 to 4000 years depending on the climate, inoculum proximity and the definition of recovery. Primordial Solutions’ approach for restoring soil fertility involves isolating cyanobacteria that are native to the disturbed area, mass-producing the microorganisms and applying the mixed culture to the disturbed soil. This process establishes a self-perpetuating, living, green-manure that becomes active when hydrated. Once established, the restored BSC creates a substrate suitable for the survival of vascular plants. A preliminary experiment was done to compare inoculated soil with an uninoculated control. Following 18 months of incubation under ambient climate, the inoculated soil had a twelve-fold increase in nitrogen content compared to the control treatment. Additionally, the cyanobacterial biomass increased almost ten-fold from the initial 500 mg C m-² to 4788 mg C m-² (dry weight biomass). These results show that the cyanobacteria are alive and retain 72 the ability to fix and secrete nitrogen into the soil. We plan to describe the 2005 field experiments that are being conducted in the desert west of Grand Junction, Colorado. This work was supported by the Small Business Innovation Research program of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, grant #2003-33610-13086. Key Words: biological soil crust; cyanobacteria; biofertilizer; nitrogen fixation

 

[Remo2025]

Hello All

You guys have so much helpful information here its amazing,I cant thank you
all enough. After four successful outdoor harvests I plan to begin an indoor organic soil garden. I would love to try a vegan fertilizer and I really was hoping to get some good advice from some of the veterans here. If anyone has any
vegan fertilizers or sites where I can obtain premade mixtures I would be most grateful for the help.

thanks in advance

 

[phenotyper]

I'm curious about the Dark Energy. There's not doubt it's probably good stuff, but when I hear "it stinks", and has a nutrient profile of 2-0-0, I think to myself, that's probably fermented alfalfa. That stuff seems really expensive for the likely benefit. I bet it's just fermented alfalfa to extract its (nearly) complete set of aminos and triacontanol.

Cyanobacteria are really interesting, but that stuff is $60 a quart!