tobh goes swimming Dutch style

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tobh

tobh

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This has been a long time coming, and took months to gather all the parts together to finally button everything up. So, the low down is this. I'm running a flood and drain table for parent keeping, and a two site Dutch Bucket system.

Genetics:
- Dragon's Flame Genetics Blackberry Moonshine BX1
- Dragon's Flame Genetics Love Stash F2
- Capt's Tangie 99
- Katsu's Xanadu
- Cali Hemp
- Box Wine
- Personal chuck called Nothing

F&D specs:
- 13 gallon sterilite tub res, 9 gal volume of solution
- custom built flood tray -- not ideal, broke the original drilling holes improperly and had to grab what was available on the second round.
- 4"x4"x4" rockwool cubes
- hydroton (sterilite containers don't allow full drainage apparently)
- 1/2" feed, 3/4" return
- venturi, 130 gph pump
- feed pump is 180 gph vivosun
- Growstar S600 COB LED light

Dutch Buckets:
- 3 gallon food grade buckets
- 19 gallon sterilite tub res, 12 gal volume of solution
- 3/4" electrical conduit elbows
- 1 1/2" return
- rainbird 1/2" feed line, open 1/8" (i think, whatever standard is) feed lines
- 340gph pump
- 480W Enfun QB boards + Growstar S600 COB LED
- venturi, 130 gph pump

The F&D cycles happen every 12 hours, 15 minutes at six and six.

The Dutch buckets currently cycle every two hours for 15 minutes.

Nutrients are FrontRow AG two part, MOAB will be used as the PK booster. Protekt is added at 5ml/gal every change out, and Hygrozyme is added at 0.3oz/gal every top off.

The buckets are in a 4'x4'x7' tent. Ventilation in the tent is done by a 6" ac infinity inline helper fan, and a 6" ac infinity cloudline T6 exhaust. Lights currently set at 75%.

F&D currently sitting at 1100 ppm, pH 6.1, unknown res temp

Dutch buckets sitting at 760 ppm, pH 5.9, res temp at 69.5F

Love Stash is running in the tent this round.

I'll try to keep the pics sequential, my bad if they are out of order. I'm about three weeks deep into the tent run, the f&d is about eight weeks.

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Any input would be greatly appreciated. I know for a fact I need to seal up those holes on the return line in the tent, slime is a bit of a problem.
 
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tobh

tobh

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So coming with the double post on my own thread real quick. One thing I'd like to figure out is a better return solution for both setups. In the tent, nearly half my vertical height is consumed because of relying on gravity for return. I know in UC setups, this isn't really an issue, but I had difficulty formulating a good method for this in my current setup. Same with the f&d.

I know that water ballasts. It's a simple property of hydrodynamics. Fluid will fill whatever volume is available, totally, and it'll level out across containers that are near level.

Is there a way to have a return system set up, without an additional sump pump, where I could lower the f&d and/or the dutch buckets?
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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Move the return to the bottom of the tub or lower down. As long as the bottom of the buckets is just above the waterline it will return to the res. Looks like you can gain another 6 inches maybe 8?
 
tobh

tobh

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Move the return to the bottom of the tub or lower down. As long as the bottom of the buckets is just above the waterline it will return to the res. Looks like you can gain another 6 inches maybe 8?

Approximately. I suppose adding a bulk head down low and adding a quick connect of some type would allow that. I like having the mobility to be able to completely remove the res for cleaning at res changes, but it makes sense that so long the bottom of the buckets and/or table are at or slightly above water line, gravity will still do its job.
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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Approximately. I suppose adding a bulk head down low and adding a quick connect of some type would allow that. I like having the mobility to be able to completely remove the res for cleaning at res changes, but it makes sense that so long the bottom of the buckets and/or table are at or slightly above water line, gravity will still do its job.
Yup... how ya do it is something im confident beyond a doubt you can figure out.... if its worth the gain for you.
 
tobh

tobh

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Yup... how ya do it is something im confident beyond a doubt you can figure out.... if its worth the gain for you.

Probably not this round. I'm already designing a four site UC system for next round haha. The dutch bucket system is actually designed to be ran outdoors, I ripped the concept from commercial tomato and cucumber growers. But, it took too long to get put together and after my last run's terrible results, figured I'd give it it's maiden voyage in the tent.

Can't say I'm disappointed, seeing daily growth since the clones set root. Still a few bugs to work out in the system. Slime is an annoyance, and enzymes don't seem to be helping much.

Was running shock to keep things sterile, but switched to Hygrozyme based on some input from other growers. I know for a fact the holes in the return are a huge contributing factor given the other very small pinholes where light can get into the res shouldn't be encouraging growth.

But, I'm also combating res temps. Without a chiller, the res in the tent will creep up to about 3 degrees below ambient, which tends to sit at about 80F. So, obviously that's also conducive to undesirable organic life in the res.

That being said, can I run enzymes in conjunction with shock? I was running 20ml/gal of shock (came out to ~1.5ppm total in res solution) before switching to enzymes. Given I don't have a chiller my biggest threat is pythium.
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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Probably not this round. I'm already designing a four site UC system for next round haha. The dutch bucket system is actually designed to be ran outdoors, I ripped the concept from commercial tomato and cucumber growers. But, it took too long to get put together and after my last run's terrible results, figured I'd give it it's maiden voyage in the tent.

Can't say I'm disappointed, seeing daily growth since the clones set root. Still a few bugs to work out in the system. Slime is an annoyance, and enzymes don't seem to be helping much.

Was running shock to keep things sterile, but switched to Hygrozyme based on some input from other growers. I know for a fact the holes in the return are a huge contributing factor given the other very small pinholes where light can get into the res shouldn't be encouraging growth.

But, I'm also combating res temps. Without a chiller, the res in the tent will creep up to about 3 degrees below ambient, which tends to sit at about 80F. So, obviously that's also conducive to undesirable organic life in the res.

That being said, can I run enzymes in conjunction with shock? I was running 20ml/gal of shock (came out to ~1.5ppm total in res solution) before switching to enzymes. Given I don't have a chiller my biggest threat is pythium.
Well the shock will destroy the enzymes. IMO up to 74F in a system with submerged roots is fine. I prefer to run enzymes and wither hydrogaurd or southern AG fungicide. No need for a chiller if your tenos are below 74f. You right bacteria metabolism is much faster at higher tsmos which is why I run either of those 2 the strain your looking for is bacillus amyloliquefaciens.

Or run sterile with shock but that needs to be applied every 2-3days at the most i believe... hmmm possibly h2ho2 is just that frequent? Never used shock before.
 
tobh

tobh

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Well the shock will destroy the enzymes. IMO up to 74F in a system with submerged roots is fine. I prefer to run enzymes and wither hydrogaurd or southern AG fungicide. No need for a chiller if your tenos are below 74f. You right bacteria metabolism is much faster at higher tsmos which is why I run either of those 2 the strain your looking for is bacillus amyloliquefaciens.

Or run sterile with shock but that needs to be applied every 2-3days at the most i believe... hmmm possibly h2ho2 is just that frequent? Never used shock before.

That's the answer I've been looking for. Surprisingly, it's really difficult to track down information regarding interactions with shock and enzymes. Well, the use of shock in general, really. It has the same application pattern as h2o2, which is every two or three days. According to hygrozyme, I could run h2o2 side by side with it. Would you consider that to be a viable option? The added oxygen couldn't hurt, I'd think.

Another grower had mentioned hydroguard as well, so I may pick up a gallon of it to go along side the enzymes. At this point, anything I can do to keep the bad bacteria and fungi at bay will be helpful, at least until I can afford a chiller.

Keeping res temps below 74F has been a challenge to say the least. Currently I'm using frozen gallon water jugs and swapping them out every 4ish hours, but that's causing quite drastic fluctuations in res temp, ranging from low 60's to mid 70's, depending how warm ambient is in the tent and when I get around to swapping the jugs out.

I appreciate the input, Aqua Man. You're just the guru I've been looking to talk with about this :)
 
tobh

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Quick update for the day. Debating if I should do some cleanup on the bigger plant. I've not ran a scrog at this scale, nor in this kind of configuration, and I'm not sure how many branches are too much. Not terribly concerned about airflow under there yet, but I'm just thinking in terms of Best Practice for filling the screen.

The smaller one is definitely ready to be topped as well. Will probably do that tonight.

Doing a low PPM top up on the f&d res as well. pH has been staying stable, but the parents have drank over three gallons in three days, so it's time for a top up.

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TheBioMaster

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I ran the BlackBerry Moonshine from Dragon Flame Genetics...... Really nice gear!!

Super hungry strain that loves nitrogen!!

Can run it 11 to 12 weeks of flower easy....

Produces some seriously insane trichomes!!

Holla if you have any questions!
 
tobh

tobh

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I ran the BlackBerry Moonshine from Dragon Flame Genetics...... Really nice gear!!

Super hungry strain that loves nitrogen!!

Can run it 11 to 12 weeks of flower easy....

Produces some seriously insane trichomes!!

Holla if you have any questions!

I ran it last cycle in promix, and was beyond impressed. This was at week 7 iirc

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Both with it and Love Stash. Really solid, well thought out genetics. Here's the Love Stash at week 8 I think

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I knew there was time left on the BMS, but life constraints led to an earlier than preferred pull. Even still, I've been using it like Ambien at night haha. Stuff just knocks me out. About a month's cure and the blackberry is really coming through in the cure now. Not so fermented fruit juice smelling, some sweetness is emerging. It's nice.

I have a couple going in the parent closet though, and plan on doing a seed production round after this run of Love Stash. If the pheno in the tent is the one I'm thinking it is, it'll yield very respectably. It's the green stem pheno. Have a confirmed female red stem pheno that's patiently waiting her turn in the spotlight too.

Thanks for stopping by!
 
tobh

tobh

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Quick update for the day. Growth is lookin good, no negative symptoms apparent from dropping the EC a bit. If anything it'll help save some of those expensive FrontRow AG salts.

My major question at this point is when is too soon start cleaning up the lower portion of a scrog plant? Obviously branching is the name of the game here, but how many branches off the main trunk is too much? Does this bigger plant look about ready for a bit of cleanup? Or should I wait a bit longer in the veg cycle before tidying things up a bit?

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Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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Quick update for the day. Growth is lookin good, no negative symptoms apparent from dropping the EC a bit. If anything it'll help save some of those expensive FrontRow AG salts.

My major question at this point is when is too soon start cleaning up the lower portion of a scrog plant? Obviously branching is the name of the game here, but how many branches off the main trunk is too much? Does this bigger plant look about ready for a bit of cleanup? Or should I wait a bit longer in the veg cycle before tidying things up a bit?

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I try not to take more than 1/3rd of the plant. Other than that good to go.
 
tobh

tobh

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I try not to take more than 1/3rd of the plant. Other than that good to go.

Good lookin out. I think I set the screen 8", maybe 12" above the sites. Just trying to be forward thinking here, I don't have a lot of room to work with under there and once the screen is filled, some areas won't be reachable until harvest day.
 
Aqua Man

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Good lookin out. I think I set the screen 8", maybe 12" above the sites. Just trying to be forward thinking here, I don't have a lot of room to work with under there and once the screen is filled, some areas won't be reachable until harvest day.
I hear that bro.. when I did my 4x4 grows it was a nightmare cause I could only get to it from one side. So what I di was let em come up through a bit then lollipop up to the screen leave 3 node per branch at the tips. Then I could tuck from the top and not worry about cleaning out the bottom much. I used 3 or 3.5 inch trellis (don't remember) but just some stem rolling and I was able to tuck under over. Then at 3/4 full I flipped. Tucked for 1 more aeek then let everything grow up. Still may need a bit of cleanup underneath but just some fans here and there.

I found goin up through first then tucking over under to keep the underside easier to clean up. If I tried to stay under as they grew it was much wider under the trellis and more of a pita. But thats just my experience as it was a pita to get under there since I only had access to one side.
 
tobh

tobh

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I hear that bro.. when I did my 4x4 grows it was a nightmare cause I could only get to it from one side. So what I di was let em come up through a bit then lollipop up to the screen leave 3 node per branch at the tips. Then I could tuck from the top and not worry about cleaning out the bottom much. I used 3 or 3.5 inch trellis (don't remember) but just some stem rolling and I was able to tuck under over. Then at 3/4 full I flipped. Tucked for 1 more aeek then let everything grow up. Still may need a bit of cleanup underneath but just some fans here and there.

I found goin up through first then tucking over under to keep the underside easier to clean up. If I tried to stay under as they grew it was much wider under the trellis and more of a pita. But thats just my experience as it was a pita to get under there since I only had access to one side.

Speaking my language bro. That's exactly my issue. I only have one full access side, a second that is near impossible to get into. Using 3.5" trellis. Your technique sounds on point for preventing a complete PITA in three weeks.
 
Aqua Man

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Speaking my language bro. That's exactly my issue. I only have one full access side, a second that is near impossible to get into. Using 3.5" trellis. Your technique sounds on point for preventing a complete PITA in three weeks.
Hehe don't kid yourself it's still a pita just not as big.
 
tobh

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Just another quick update. Have some leaf tip curling, the girls decided to drink a ton of water over the past two days. Gotta do a res change out, ain't trying to combat whatever is going on in there. Noticed some slight discoloration on some of the leaves that almost looks like light bleaching, but I'm more leaning towards some kind of lockout going on because of the sudden decrease in res volume.

Trimmed up under the skirt a bit, and am taking Aqua Man's advice. I'll be letting em creep up a bit and start weaving as needed. Really wishing the buckets were positioned more centered on the net... One of those details I guess.

Today was a day of many, so this is it for now.

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