Too Many Roots In A 6 Gallon Smart Pot? Help!

[Greenshark]

I'm so confused and I'm losing faith by the day so someone please enlighten me!

I have 13 plants in 23l ( 6 gallon smart pots ) they have been vegging In those pots for just over 7 weeks now under 5 600w Hps ( coco coir with no perlite )

My problem is with yellow leaves and what looks like slightly wilting plants ( no strength in them so it seems ) The new growth starts off with yellow/white tips then precedes to make the whole leaf yellow. Looks slightly deformed as well. The leaves that aren't in the light are a much nicer darker green. If I open the canopy up to look inside they look much better than the leaves directly in the light? I thought at first it may be light bleaching as till about a week ago they were on 24 hour lighting. They are on 18/6 now and the new growth still turns yellow. Never fed them above 0.8 ec so it can't be nute burn and my ph is always beteeen 5.8-6.2 without fail.

So the symptoms are

Slightly wilting plants more so at the top ( looks like over watering or underwatering, it's deffo not ) All the leaves on the plant are turning yellow but the lower leaves not in the light aren't affected as much ( so I ruled out N def )

Lack of vigour in the plants, is a fan is blowing a top cola and I move the fan, the branch stays where it is for a bit like it has no strength.

They are drinking a lot of water. I can put nearly 5 litres in ( 23 litre pot ) and the day after they want more, as in they're nearly dry.

So I was thinking maybe it was a root problem as I tried flushing, lowering the feed, upping the feed, giving them darkness, raising the lights, raising humidity etc. I've tried everything but it really looks like a deficiency of some sort. Zinc? Iron? I don't know and I'm lost now!

Anyway, last night I but the bullet and wanted to inspect the roots, I had noticed that a lot of the plants root system was almost trying to grow horizontal across the top of the pot? Almost out of the pot? Never seen it before. I took a scalpel and cut a square out of my smart pot to see the roots and wow.... they were In abundance. I'm guessing there are too many roots in my smart pot now and its giving me root problems with deficiencys etc.

The camera on my phone only works at the front and I took a video which it won't let me upload so I had to screen shot the pics and ended up looking terrible. I'm taking a decent camera later and I'll upload many photos of the roots and plants etc so you can all have a look and hopefully tell me the problem!

For now, here are the terrible photos of the roots.

 

[Greenshark]

They are due to be flipped and I can't flip them in the current state so If it is root problems then I'll go and buy some 36 litre smart pots and pot them up before flowering.

 

[Greenshark]

Pic taken 2 weeks ago but you get the idea of the size of them.

 

[DGP]

They are simply root bound. They have been in too small a pot for too long. Was just at an outdoor grow where the person was re-potting because of the same symptom and situation with smart pots that were too small. If you have not been over watering then your plants are probably just out of room.

Dee

 

[Greenshark]

Just been to take some photos. The camera really doesn't show just how yellow they are but they are. The new growth is coming through green then goes yellow from the tip down?

Hopefully the better photos will get me some answers and hopefully it is just a matter of putting them in bigger pots ( just been an bought some 39 litre smart pots and some coco )

 

[Greenshark]

They are simply root bound. They have been in too small a pot for too long. Was just at an outdoor grow where the person was re-potting because of the same symptom and situation with smart pots that were too small. If you have not been over watering then your plants are probably just out of room.

Dee

Thanks for the reply :) I was hoping and guessing it would be that but I had so many people tell me you couldn't fill a 23 litre pot. What's helped as well is the 18-6. They were on 24 hour light for 7 weeks and I was foliage feeding as well and that could have bleached the roots. That doesn't explain the tip burn though.

I've added some more pics above.

 

[oldskol4evr]

the roots on top are from your plug you grew them in,my clones do this every time i use the plugs,you will be adding medium and thinking your stuff is just washing off,while in turn the plant is growing out of the pot,thing about root bound is that when it is,the little feeder roots are all that will grow,that ball is still there,and roots have firmed up were you just cant dip in water and help get the mess apart,no my question to you is,i thought them smart pots air pruned the roots,do they not?
you didnt mention nutrients use,im asuming your ready to flip,you gonna have massive plants after stretch,but me i still feed n for first 2 weeks while stretch going then focus more on p and k side of values,during that 2 weeks i also run my MH bulb then when i change bulbs i change feed,,anyway hope you got a full size room to grow um,i really would like to see you do so,im restricted to a 2x4x6 tent right now,so 1 gal pots and max after stretch im at 2 1/2 foot tall at harvest hahah,so i have to grow more,if you do decide to give a bit more nitrogen dont go overboard,then you will lock something else out,they look healthy to me,that slight yellow will clear up,you gonna put them in the dark for 48 hrs before flip? if so when them lights come back on all your top new growth will look like that,at least mine do,after a few days they straighten up,good luck sorry couldnt help just saying how i do it

 

[Greenshark]

the roots on top are from your plug you grew them in,my clones do this every time i use the plugs,you will be adding medium and thinking your stuff is just washing off,while in turn the plant is growing out of the pot,thing about root bound is that when it is,the little feeder roots are all that will grow,that ball is still there,and roots have firmed up were you just cant dip in water and help get the mess apart,no my question to you is,i thought them smart pots air pruned the roots,do they not?
you didnt mention nutrients use,im asuming your ready to flip,you gonna have massive plants after stretch,but me i still feed n for first 2 weeks while stretch going then focus more on p and k side of values,during that 2 weeks i also run my MH bulb then when i change bulbs i change feed,,anyway hope you got a full size room to grow um,i really would like to see you do so,im restricted to a 2x4x6 tent right now,so 1 gal pots and max after stretch im at 2 1/2 foot tall at harvest hahah,so i have to grow more,if you do decide to give a bit more nitrogen dont go overboard,then you will lock something else out,they look healthy to me,that slight yellow will clear up,you gonna put them in the dark for 48 hrs before flip? if so when them lights come back on all your top new growth will look like that,at least mine do,after a few days they straighten up,good luck sorry couldnt help just saying how i do it

I shouldn't have used the word ' bound ' really as they do air prune. I just think I have that much root mass that the root to coco mass is overly in favour of roots. Also, the plant in picture is the only plant with the plug showing. On the other plants the plug is further in and the roots are still coming out the top and travelling along horizontaly. Another thing that's getting me thinking it's the root mass is the fact that one plant had to be repotted about 3 weeks In to veg and this didn't go very well ( everything that could have gone wrong, did. I ended up just putting the root ball in. ) . This stressed her for a good few weeks so she is smaller than the rest and she shows very little signs of it because her roots are a few weeks behind the others in terms of mass.

I'm using plagron A+B @ roughly 1.2ml per litre and a tiny bit of katana roots. My tap water ppm comes out at 250 ppm and my total feed going in is 550 ppm ( 0.8 ec ) still I'm getting tip burn and I've tried everything else so I'm stumped.

They are currently under 5 600w hps lights and they were on a 24 hour light schedule for the first 7 weeks of their life and the last 4 days they been on 18/6 and the new growth is deffo coming through greener but that could be multitudes of things I've been trying. The plant looks very healthy but with completely pale yellow leaves and the new growth has yellow tips.

There will be 10 600w hps in flower and the room is more than big enough to flower these bad boys with room left :) they will get a lot bigger after tonight when they go in to their 39 litre smart pots. Going to veg for another 2 weeks then flip.

 

[oldskol4evr]

I shouldn't have used the word ' bound ' really as they do air prune. I just think I have that much root mass that the root to coco mass is overly in favour of roots. Also, the plant in picture is the only plant with the plug showing. On the other plants the plug is further in and the roots are still coming out the top and travelling along horizontaly. Another thing that's getting me thinking it's the root mass is the fact that one plant had to be repotted about 3 weeks In to veg and this didn't go very well ( everything that could have gone wrong, did. I ended up just putting the root ball in. ) . This stressed her for a good few weeks so she is smaller than the rest and she shows very little signs of it because her roots are a few weeks behind the others in terms of mass.

I'm using plagron A+B @ roughly 1.2ml per litre and a tiny bit of katana roots. My tap water ppm comes out at 250 ppm and my total feed going in is 550 ppm ( 0.8 ec ) still I'm getting tip burn and I've tried everything else so I'm stumped.

They are currently under 5 600w hps lights and they were on a 24 hour light schedule for the first 7 weeks of their life and the last 4 days they been on 18/6 and the new growth is deffo coming through greener but that could be multitudes of things I've been trying. The plant looks very healthy but with completely pale yellow leaves and the new growth has yellow tips.

There will be 10 600w hps in flower and the room is more than big enough to flower these bad boys with room left :) they will get a lot bigger after tonight when they go in to their 39 litre smart pots. Going to veg for another 2 weeks then flip.

have you checked the hanna scale for that stage growth? seems a plant at that stage should be around 750 ppm,not sure been a while since i eye balled the chart,might just be your problem friend

 

[Greenshark]

have you checked the hanna scale for that stage growth? seems a plant at that stage should be around 750 ppm,not sure been a while since i eye balled the chart,might just be your problem friend

These plants just don't seem to like too many nutes. They still have tip burn at 500 ppm. That's only really 250ppm of actual nutes as the rest is locked up in the tap water. Could yellow tips be a deficiency of some sort? I tried 700-800 ppm a while ago but they ended up getting locked out. 750 was going In and 1300 was coming back out after a week or so but they weren't this big then. They're gonna be some big plants in flower.

 

[oldskol4evr]

These plants just don't seem to like too many nutes. They still have tip burn at 500 ppm. That's only really 250ppm of actual nutes as the rest is locked up in the tap water. Could yellow tips be a deficiency of some sort? I tried 700-800 ppm a while ago but they ended up getting locked out. 750 was going In and 1300 was coming back out after a week or so but they weren't this big then. They're gonna be some big plants in flower.

had same problem living in the city,couldnt feed any hardly,got me 2 them 5 gal water bottles from wally world,hit that 1.75 water machine on the corner and took care that,but had to ph down afterwards from 6.9 to 6.5,all mine seem to like 6.5 on occasion i get a strain that like 6.8 for the sweet spot

 

[Greenshark]

had same problem living in the city,couldnt feed any hardly,got me 2 them 5 gal water bottles from wally world,hit that 1.75 water machine on the corner and took care that,but had to ph down afterwards from 6.9 to 6.5,all mine seem to like 6.5 on occasion i get a strain that like 6.8 for the sweet spot

I'm in the uk mate and no one sells RO water over here, I would love that! I'm in coco so my ph has to be between 5.8-6.2. I transplanted 10 out the 13 last night in to 39 litre smart pots. All went ok and I'm hoping it cures my symptoms! The annoying thing is the new growth started to get much better and green when I gave them some darkness so I hope it wasn't just that as they went 7 weeks under 24 hour light.

 

[oldskol4evr]

I'm in the uk mate and no one sells RO water over here, I would love that! I'm in coco so my ph has to be between 5.8-6.2. I transplanted 10 out the 13 last night in to 39 litre smart pots. All went ok and I'm hoping it cures my symptoms! The annoying thing is the new growth started to get much better and green when I gave them some darkness so I hope it wasn't just that as they went 7 weeks under 24 hour light.

i dont ever run 24 hr lights,even a plant needs sleep and that when they feed the most,lights on they have to struggle to fend off that hot thing coming down on them,hahah you dont really see this in a indoor grow,but outside oh ya,they feed at night like a vampire lmao,if you grow veggies,feed them hour before dark and see if you can tell how happy and extra growth you got from the moon,,folk call me crazy until they try,were im at the day is 100 and night 85,by 1 oclock the plants are like melted wax,i have to go out to my container plants and cool off the totes with water,just about a quart of water,they come back around and just transpire,after i feed them a hour before dark,come back in morning and squash all over them plants and bees just a working,try it see the difrence

 

[RooR5mm]

They aren’t root bound. The EC is too low.

 

[Greenshark]

They aren’t root bound. The EC is too low.

Would this cause tip burn. The leaves in the canopy not in the light are a much nicer green. The lower leaves look much healthier. Before transplanting last night there was new growth it and it looked a better colour. I'm thinking maybe the 7 weeks of intense hps lighting 24 hours a day wasn't helping. I'm worried about upping nutes as they already have tip burn. I might give it a go again and see what happens.

 

[RooR5mm]

They aren’t getting enough Nutes. Nothing wrong with 24hr lights. Personal pref, the plants will stretch during lights off. It is one of the main reasons why people run them 24. New growth is frying because they don’t have enough nutes. I would consider .8 EC a maintenance dose under T5 mother plants for example. Not full bore 1k HPS 7 week’s in. Depending on your nute brand you could run them @ 3.0.

 

[Greenshark]

They aren’t getting enough Nutes. Nothing wrong with 24hr lights. Personal pref, the plants will stretch during lights off. It is one of the main reasons why people run them 24. New growth is frying because they don’t have enough nutes. I would consider .8 EC a maintenance dose under T5 mother plants for example. Not full bore 1k HPS 7 week’s in. Depending on your nute brand you could run them @ 3.0.

You seem positive that it's not enough nutes... before I up them let me tell you the symptoms again..

Tip burn, almost identical to that of nute burn ( tips yellow and edges burnt followed by the complete yellowing of the leaf but the leaf stays in healthy condition, feels normal and doesn't pull off the plant easy, it is purely yellow.

New growth slightly twisted with yellow tips

Plants lack strength, feels very bendy and doesn't seem to want to reposition itself very well if you bend a branch slightly.

Leaves pointing down and wilted slightly, looks over watered.

If these are the symptoms of not enough nutes then I'll deffo up them tomorrow.

 

[greenthumb89]

I'd suggest doing multiple feeds a day at a lower ec. It might be drying out too quickly leaving salt residue which could be causing the symptoms you see.

 

[RooR5mm]

Even multiple feeds @ .8 EC is too little for this round of plants at their current size. At this size you have to be close to needing to water twice a day? Are you getting runoff? Are you measuring your runoff? I prefer using a bluelab soil PH meter. I’d take a bet ur below 5.8 by .4 minimum ph, that is where your mutated growth is probably coming from. I always test lower in coco. It has something to do with the manufacturers buffering agent. I’d actually bump up the ph to 6.4 for this turn and raise the EC by .2 every feeding till you get up to a min of 1.8 regardless of nute brand. I’d max at about 2.2- 2.4 to play it safe. Are you watering 2-3 gallons at a time or one gallon a couple of times a day? You need to not let coco dry out like a soil plant FYI. You should be hitting the plants with a super minimum of 10% runoff regardless. That is with good “high end” nutes. Salt based ones I’d be doing 25% runoff minimum. I don’t know what your nute brand and varietiesyou are running so I could only give general and stable info. I’m running 7 gallon short smart pots 2-3 gallons min per feeding, typically 3-4 @ 1.9 EC under 432 watts (8 lamp fixture) of T5 per plant. They will be pumped up to 2.6 by the time they hit flower in a couple of weeks.
It is like when you take cuttings and if you mess up and didn’t feed the rooted cutting a couple of days too late by accident. The edges burn an the new growth is yellow. You do it long enough the fan leaves will turn yellow eventually. That is what I’m seeing but with mature veg plants. You saying .8 EC with 7 plus week old veg plants is all I needed to know. Some varieties may be able t9 pull it off or in hydro which either is not the case,

 

[Greenshark]

Even multiple feeds @ .8 EC is too little for this round of plants at their current size. At this size you have to be close to needing to water twice a day? Are you getting runoff? Are you measuring your runoff? I prefer using a bluelab soil PH meter. I’d take a bet ur below 5.8 by .4 minimum ph, that is where your mutated growth is probably coming from. I always test lower in coco. It has something to do with the manufacturers buffering agent. I’d actually bump up the ph to 6.4 for this turn and raise the EC by .2 every feeding till you get up to a min of 1.8 regardless of nute brand. I’d max at about 2.2- 2.4 to play it safe. Are you watering 2-3 gallons at a time or one gallon a couple of times a day? You need to not let coco dry out like a soil plant FYI. You should be hitting the plants with a super minimum of 10% runoff regardless. That is with good “high end” nutes. Salt based ones I’d be doing 25% runoff minimum. I don’t know what your nute brand and varietiesyou are running so I could only give general and stable info. I’m running 7 gallon short smart pots 2-3 gallons min per feeding, typically 3-4 @ 1.9 EC under 432 watts (8 lamp fixture) of T5 per plant. They will be pumped up to 2.6 by the time they hit flower in a couple of weeks.
It is like when you take cuttings and if you mess up and didn’t feed the rooted cutting a couple of days too late by accident. The edges burn an the new growth is yellow. You do it long enough the fan leaves will turn yellow eventually. That is what I’m seeing but with mature veg plants. You saying .8 EC with 7 plus week old veg plants is all I needed to know. Some varieties may be able t9 pull it off or in hydro which either is not the case,

Very late reply but you were completely right. I put them in 10 gallon smart pots and upped the feed gradually. The re-potting did the world of good as well as upping the feed big time. They are now on about 1.8 ec and are literally loving life. The root mass is crazy and the plants stand at just under 5 foot but stupidity bushy. They have been flipped for 7 days now. I'm extremely excited to see the yield these will produce. 12 plants under 8 600w HPS. I'll keep you informed. Thanks for the help.