Trees and Aero

[nog]

check out the misting systems they use in the vinyards in cali, these use pressures upto 1000 psi, the sky is the limit with misting systems, the bigger the pump, the more mist you will generate to cover a wider area of roots.

 

[FLB]

Very impressive Tf, I have yet to get up to 80 psi. Looks like you have built a few of these systems in your day. I'm still around 50-60. Do you find your girls finishing early in this type of system? I still need to add a solenoid and 80 psi pressure switch to mine, instant pressure versus a slow build up and pre-mature failure of pump from constant start and stop. Sounds like you are going to run with some bigger pressure tanks next round. How do you plan on keeping the solutions chilled?

 

[tree farmer]

So maybe 3 levels.. 4 including bottom?

Have you considered a drain level around 5 inches to allow for a dwc and aero effect? Just to clarify do the foggers run 24/7 or just 5 seconds every 5 minutes? I would really like to build one of these, looking for more info!!

my lp systems were somewhat of a shallow water culture NfT type systems. have never tried full blown DWC on the bottom

Also so what do you feel the best Size Container would be for 1 single plant. Need to start planning ahead now. I have an Idea for building the Chambers just need to start a prototype.!!!

pressure doesnt mean much without control. people misunderstand HP aero. its not about the pressure as much as its about the droplet size and the ability to control the droplet size and volume of solution thruout the whole mist cycle. without control(even with high pressure) imho you get similar root results to lp aero.

if its going to be a large tree id say at least 18cubic ft root space.

any tips for the LP users?

not sure what type of lp system you have. lp has so many different designs its hard to point out anything specific. one thing that i found to always make a difference is if running low pressures and volume spraying its best to keep the root mat from laying in the runoff. elevate the mat always worked better for me.

Very impressive Tf, I have yet to get up to 80 psi. Looks like you have built a few of these systems in your day. I'm still around 50-60. Do you find your girls finishing early in this type of system? I still need to add a solenoid and 80 psi pressure switch to mine, instant pressure versus a slow build up and pre-mature failure of pump from constant start and stop. Sounds like you are going to run with some bigger pressure tanks next round. How do you plan on keeping the solutions chilled?

sounds like your having some also. even with lp i ran PT and selonoids except for a few veg systems which were pump only. only failure i ever had also was with the pump only system. saved the ladies anyway though inspite off the pump failure.

i know alot of people talk about a faster finish in aero but i never really noticed that on my lp systems. i did notice my last run in HP the aero plants compared to the dirt test subjects the aero did finish about 6 days earlier.

the solution will start off very cold 50ish degrees (free thanks to mother nature)so i wont have to worry about cooling it just warming it maybe(dont know yet). tanks will be very insulated and sitting out of the room. with the low flows it should take 60-90 minutes to move from the tank to the nozzles. long enough to warm it if i have to.

 

[FLB]

the solution will start off very cold 50ish degrees (free thanks to mother nature)so i wont have to worry about cooling it just warming it maybe(dont know yet). tanks will be very insulated and sitting out of the room. with the low flows it should take 60-90 minutes to move from the tank to the nozzles. long enough to warm it if i have to.[/QUOTE]




Even in the summer? No burnt up pumps yet. I have contemplated using a 80 g pt but still need to figure out how to keep solution at a desired temp. Maybe burying a tank in the ground would do the trick. At your 2.5 g a day, that would take a month to run through a tank. I suppose you could plumb a chiller in line between the pump and the solenoid. I'm still pretty new to the aero game. My system steals some of the rwdc/dwc theories with the bottom drain bucket as it holds 1/4-1/2" of solution before the hitting the drain. I figured if the power were to go out there would be a little for the girls to sip on

 

[pacog]

Originally Posted by pacog View Post


Also so what do you feel the best Size Container would be for 1 single plant. Need to start planning ahead now. I have an Idea for building the Chambers just need to start a prototype.!!!


"pressure doesnt mean much without control. people misunderstand HP aero. its not about the pressure as much as its about the droplet size and the ability to control the droplet size and volume of solution thruout the whole mist cycle. without control(even with high pressure) imho you get similar root results to lp aero.

if its going to be a large tree id say at least 18cubic ft root space."

TF... Thanks again. I understand that droplet size Is Key In HP as well as misting cycles. I will be using the correct Micron Mister for sure!! Just need to figure out the best one for the situation.

As for Pressure of the Pump. Wouldn't the Higher the Pressure Pump, have to Run for Shorter intervals, with or with out the pressure tank involved? With a high enough pressure pump, wouldn't you only have to cycle the misters for 1-3 seconds each time to achieve the same amount of water being emitted from the misters if the pump were at lower pressure???

I am trying to get a system that is close to Plug and play as possible. I would like to avoid as much as the electronics involved if possible( I can do all electrical with no Problems, its just the less parts involved the better, IMO).

Take a look at the following Pump set-up and let me know what you think. I know it's a bit costly but looks like something that's right up my ally as far as application. Also would the same companies misters work or would you suggest something else???
http://mistingdirect.com/aeroponicpumps.html

Also have to say there are some cool products starting to enter the market as far as Aero is concerned. Man I wish had funds the funds to experiment with s few of them.

 

[AeroTrek]

Air Assisted

Hi tree farmer,

I haven't heard from you since RUI, glad to see your still around, nice grow! I finished reading through your thread and was wondering if you were going with the air assisted nozzles with your new set-up? Fatman7574 suggested that using waste oil air assissted nozzles would supply the mean of 50 micron drop size and that the nozzles can be purchased for approx. $25 each and $38 each for the nozzle body adapters on ebay. They are Delevan brand model 30609-2 thru to 30609-11 & 28. Have you looked into these and if not, what's your choice in nozzle?

My main question is, through your experience, what would be the ideal flow of nutes per plant at an average drop size of 50 microns? You mentioned in your thread 1.5gal per day, is that for one plant or for all four?

Nice to see you again...looking foward to following your new set-up.

 

[AeroTrek]

Sorry...double post.

 

[jiggaboojones]

interesting system. all of the aero's i am familiar with look very simple in comparasin to yours . they are usualy just hydro pump or 2 , pvc and spray misters in a tub of some kind.

 

[tree farmer]

Hi tree farmer,

I haven't heard from you since RUI, glad to see your still around, nice grow! I finished reading through your thread and was wondering if you were going with the air assisted nozzles with your new set-up? Fatman7574 suggested that using waste oil air assissted nozzles would supply the mean of 50 micron drop size and that the nozzles can be purchased for approx. $25 each and $38 each for the nozzle body adapters on ebay. They are Delevan brand model 30609-2 thru to 30609-11 & 28. Have you looked into these and if not, what's your choice in nozzle?

My main question is, through your experience, what would be the ideal flow of nutes per plant at an average drop size of 50 microns? You mentioned in your thread 1.5gal per day, is that for one plant or for all four?

Nice to see you again...looking foward to following your new set-up.

imo air assisted has no benefits over a proper pump-tank based system. i can do everything that an air assisted system can with just as much control if not more. with air assisted you have maybe one or 2 nozzles in a chamber where as i will have 6 or 8 nozzles that can deliver the same flow rate as AA nozzles with a wider coverage without having to tweak air input and solution input times. dont get me wrong i think AA would be something nice to play with but once a person gets into these things he realizes that AA systems have there own set of issues. i could probably right a page on how i think pump-tank based systems are as good or better than AA systems but i wont bore you.

i dont think there is an ideal flow number that can be given as its a constantly changing figure as the plant matures. i base input flows on what the root system and the plant look like at a given point along with drain volume. i figure the numbers ive used on the old system will be completly different on my new syetem as i will have much tighter controls on the new setup as well as different plant arrangements(at least starting out).

 

[Shady]

Very impressive aero setup and trees! Looking forward to your next run and more beautiful photos of the system, trees, and of course pearly white roots... :cool

 

[squarepusher]

So maybe 3 levels.. 4 including bottom?

Have you considered a drain level around 5 inches to allow for a dwc and aero effect? Just to clarify do the foggers run 24/7 or just 5 seconds every 5 minutes? I would really like to build one of these, looking for more info!!

I've heard of this before, its a good idea that add's a failsafe mechanism to aero (which may be prone to problems). If your misters or pump have a mishap, then you have the DWC bottom layer to keep them alive for a while until a fix can be made. Although this is not optimum results wise, it is a very nice compromise for adding safety which I would opt to have in a system if I made it.

 

[Wildwayne]

TF Glad to find you again. Been watching the RIU thread, now is closed. Probably a good thing...getting way out of control! Keep up the good work. I am right behind you. Just building a prototype of a AA HP aero system. Looking forward in your future posts.

 

[tree farmer]

I've heard of this before, its a good idea that add's a failsafe mechanism to aero (which may be prone to problems). If your misters or pump have a mishap, then you have the DWC bottom layer to keep them alive for a while until a fix can be made. Although this is not optimum results wise, it is a very nice compromise for adding safety which I would opt to have in a system if I made it.

In my new aero system im not the least bit worried about pump failure as the pump will only run every 3 days when i flip the switch and with multiple selonoids and misters to each pod even if one failed there would be multiple others still firing.

Have most of the parts on order for the new system and have begun construction of the pods. Hope to finish them (the chambers) soon. this is turning out to be very expensive but trying to do it right.

 

[pacog]

In my new aero system im not the least bit worried about pump failure as the pump will only run every 3 days when i flip the switch and with multiple selonoids and misters to each pod even if one failed there would be multiple others still firing.

Have most of the parts on order for the new system and have begun construction of the pods. Hope to finish them (the chambers) soon. this is turning out to be very expensive but trying to do it right.

Tree... Looking forward to seeing the new set up!!!!

Even the little projects seem to get expensive. Especially when you are doing it right. I can only imagine the cost involved, but will be ready when the time comes when I want to build something similar.

 

[foaf]

Hi tree farmer,

I am about to re-delve into aero and your grow is the closest thing on the internet to what I plan to do. I did high pressure aero about 7 years ago with one success and one power outage while out of town failure, so I abandoned it for dwc. anyway, I have backup plans now, and am gonna do a tree. my last 3 grows have been solitary dwc trees, 4lbs (reefeman hashplant), 3lbs bubba kush, and most recently 2.5 lbs ssh. all posted on icmag under my name fwiw. lots of crazy light.

anyway, Ill post it once I get thing going, pretty soon, the seeds have popped, nevilles haze, but since I cant pm questions here yet, I thought I would revive your tree post if thats ok.

questions - sorry if they are hidden in the 9 pages, I read most of it...

if the room was warmer than like your is, do you think that chilling the pressure tank would be helpful at all, I mean, does enough of the chilled nutrient even get through the tubing in the 2 second pulse to still be chilled when it hits the roots? I have another plan to loop 1/4 tubing in the pod and recirculate chilled water, dont know what Ill do yet.

how much return solution is there? I bet the plants use up almost all of the amount you mention they get per day? I didnt see, but do you drain to waste or return your nutes to the res? What do you think about drain to waste possibilities? How did you adjust the nute amount to be sure that it meets the plants water needs from transpiration. If I ran my new pod like you do,( I have 12 x .9 gph emitters at 100psi), I dont know if I would get as much total solution as the amount of water my trees need in a 24 period.

what psi pump do you use? does it shut off with a built in pressure switch or did you add an external switch. I have a 160psi fogco and a 120psi RO booster pump, and had to put an adjustable external pressure switch to avoid overloading the accumulator rating. silent misting pump This is my main pump, actually an older model of whats inside the case of the link, it is super silent, relatively cheap, low volume but needs an external $15 pressure switch.

what is your backup plan for power outages?

I know you are planning for bigger and bigger root chambers.... what do you think of my theory, and it is that roots will really fill as much space as they can even if they really dont really need so much space.... my thoughts come from the fact that all my trees had roughtly 5 gallons of root mass volume in dwc, and I got 4, 3, and 2.5 pounders with fairly ugly roots, dreadlock brown roots from floranova unfiltered, and probably too many bubbles in dwc. So instead of increasing the root volume, I am trying to maximize what the roots can do in this smaller volume, bout 7 gallons. this next grow will have a tall chambe, 40 inches, and Ive got a scrog type plan for the roots that Ill show soon. I cant really spare the space for a big chamber in a 4x3x10tall closet and Ive seen pretty big sativa trees in surprisingly small soil pots too. :)

so pics of my chamber when it was dwc with my lowest yeild tree, ssh, at 11 weeks, harvested at 13. 24 x 85watt cfls, and 1000 HPS overhead.



thanks in advance.

 

[Jalisco Kid]

Foaf,
Good to see you here, the farm just got a little better. I really have to thank you for your recovery system. We now can make meds for my arthritis down at the ranch. There is a lot of cheap herb down there now because it can not make it here so it is made at very reasonable price.
When you joined our group and showed use your first grow I thought that you sat around and smoked far too much to come up with your design but you pulled it off. I love people who think out of the box. JK

 

[MediMary]

sweet foal !!

 

[squarepusher]

nice post and welcome. Are you going to reveg that plant in the picture?

 

[foaf]

hi, thanks guys, I planned to reveg the tree, and when I went to cut back the roots, they only filled the top half of that pipe. I think my bubbles had too much force and kept them from growing low. That is the reason I am retooling and going aero this time with nevilles haze. I dont want to take up much of tree farmers thread, so let me start a new one with my grow soon for other questions, good to see you JK, I need to talk with you about my closed bho system, I'll pm you on icmag since I cant here now, but ive made some good changes you will want to consider and would love to see pictures of the system you guys built.

cheers.....

 

[tree farmer]

Hi tree farmer,

I am about to re-delve into aero and your grow is the closest thing on the internet to what I plan to do. I did high pressure aero about 7 years ago with one success and one power outage while out of town failure, so I abandoned it for dwc. anyway, I have backup plans now, and am gonna do a tree. my last 3 grows have been solitary dwc trees, 4lbs (reefeman hashplant), 3lbs bubba kush, and most recently 2.5 lbs ssh. all posted on icmag under my name fwiw. lots of crazy light.

anyway, Ill post it once I get thing going, pretty soon, the seeds have popped, nevilles haze, but since I cant pm questions here yet, I thought I would revive your tree post if thats ok.

questions - sorry if they are hidden in the 9 pages, I read most of it...

if the room was warmer than like your is, do you think that chilling the pressure tank would be helpful at all, I mean, does enough of the chilled nutrient even get through the tubing in the 2 second pulse to still be chilled when it hits the roots? I have another plan to loop 1/4 tubing in the pod and recirculate chilled water, dont know what Ill do yet.

how much return solution is there? I bet the plants use up almost all of the amount you mention they get per day? I didnt see, but do you drain to waste or return your nutes to the res? What do you think about drain to waste possibilities? How did you adjust the nute amount to be sure that it meets the plants water needs from transpiration. If I ran my new pod like you do,( I have 12 x .9 gph emitters at 100psi), I dont know if I would get as much total solution as the amount of water my trees need in a 24 period.

what psi pump do you use? does it shut off with a built in pressure switch or did you add an external switch. I have a 160psi fogco and a 120psi RO booster pump, and had to put an adjustable external pressure switch to avoid overloading the accumulator rating. silent misting pump This is my main pump, actually an older model of whats inside the case of the link, it is super silent, relatively cheap, low volume but needs an external $15 pressure switch.

what is your backup plan for power outages?

I know you are planning for bigger and bigger root chambers.... what do you think of my theory, and it is that roots will really fill as much space as they can even if they really dont really need so much space.... my thoughts come from the fact that all my trees had roughtly 5 gallons of root mass volume in dwc, and I got 4, 3, and 2.5 pounders with fairly ugly roots, dreadlock brown roots from floranova unfiltered, and probably too many bubbles in dwc. So instead of increasing the root volume, I am trying to maximize what the roots can do in this smaller volume, bout 7 gallons. this next grow will have a tall chambe, 40 inches, and Ive got a scrog type plan for the roots that Ill show soon. I cant really spare the space for a big chamber in a 4x3x10tall closet and Ive seen pretty big sativa trees in surprisingly small soil pots too. :)

so pics of my chamber when it was dwc with my lowest yeild tree, ssh, at 11 weeks, harvested at 13. 24 x 85watt cfls, and 1000 HPS overhead.



thanks in advance.

ive seen your work at icmag. they were always a pleasure to look thru. its unfortunate that icmag has so much misinfo from all the TAG stuff from 10 yrs ago.

my new setup the PT will be cooled because i want to set it in the room. im going to accomplish this by wrapping a coil of tubing around the tank and then insulating the tank and circulating cool water thru the tubing. my old system the pt had 3.5 inches of insulation surrounding it and id send 65 degree solution to it and the chamber temp stayed right around 68 to 70 with the mist cycles i was running.

i though about coiling tubing in the chamber also and circulating chiled water thru it but decieded that its much easier to keep the chamber cool by the evaporative effect of the mist than trying to cool the whole chamber with tubing. also if the tubing in the chamber was cooler than the mist supplied the mist would condensate on the tubing and i didnt want that.

its hard to wrap a persons mind around the low amounts of water i used. i was only sending around 4 gallons aday to 4 fairly large shrubs. i started with recirc but went to DTW when i saw how little solution i went thru. ill never go back to recirc. DTw has so much more control. i get asked alot about "how did you know the plant was getting enough water for transpiration? i dont have any scientific answer for that but i never saw any signs of moisture stress and the fan leaves were always cool to the touch.

the old system ran at 80-100 psi. i had an external PS because the internal ones generally drift to much for what i need. my new system the tanks will run at 230psi which will be regulated down to 100psi constant to the nozzles for the greatest drawdown possible from the PT.

i built a backup pump system for my old system that had a 12volt battery and pump in case of power outages but never used it once. eventually for the new system ill hook up the power controlling the selonoids to a deep cycle battery for backup since the sytem will be able to run for days between pump up cycles.

well your theory about root space may be correct. the difference though with HP roots is they are not like roots that develop in other types of hydro systems. the roots that HP mist creates are fine and fluffy as they develop to capture the fine mist. the chamber im working on now will have the walls covered in SS screen to allow the roots to hang from the walls. im hoping this will allow for more usable space for the roots to spread out and capture mist.

there is a learning curve with this type of system as i know others that have built and are running HP and are having a tough time. not something to try if you need your meds to get by.

i have been working on one chamber every chance i get for 4 weeks and should be finished with it here in the next couple weeks. by far the most difficult thing ive ever built. and i would like to have 4 of them done by fall.:sweating