Triacontanol- what it is, where to find it

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ttystikk

ttystikk

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So I originally heard about this plant hormone from Capulator, and he forwarded me a website to order a foliar spray concentrate: Calcium 25

I did some searching around and discovered that it's one of the main ingredients in Superthrive, which as far as I can tell from the confusing-assed directions on the bottle is meant to be watered in, or as a root feed.

I'm starting this thread as a collection point for information from all those knowlegeable about this chemical, its agricultural uses and usage/dosage instructions, and especially how it works for our favorite herbs. So, share what you know!

I'll start; after using a ridiculously small amount of Superthrive (from the label; one oz. per 500 gallons) for several runs and not seeing any results, I kicked up the dose to roughly one fluid ounce in my 100 gallon RDWC, which is about half of the (also on the label) recommended '1/4 teaspoon per gallon'. My silly ass did this right before the peak of stretch phase, and the plants absolutely EXPLODED. I had to double the garden space I was growing the plants in. This is not in any way a rigorous scientific observation; this is the first time I've seen it. Makes an impression, though...
 
Aerojoe

Aerojoe

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It's a staple in my garden, also is organically derived(I got it in my teas). It's a naturally occuring chemical/hormone.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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It's a staple in my garden, also is organically derived(I got it in my teas). It's a naturally occuring chemical/hormone.

Very true. How do you get it in your teas? From what sources? How do you apply it? What results have you seen that you feel are attributable to triacontanol?
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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hey ttystik, you can make a tea from seaweed/alfalfa. making organic teas helps the plants so much.

I'm a complete noob to the idea of making teas or fermented plant extracts. I also harbor some doubts- not about their efficacy, but rather about how well they'd work in an RDWC environment. Of course, for foliar applications that wouldn't matter, but what about adding it to my water? My fear is twofold; one, that it won't remain in solution and therefore the plants can't take it up, or two that it will provide food or other encouragement to pathogens.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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I'm a complete noob to the idea of making teas or fermented plant extracts. I also harbor some doubts- not about their efficacy, but rather about how well they'd work in an RDWC environment. Of course, for foliar applications that wouldn't matter, but what about adding it to my water? My fear is twofold; one, that it won't remain in solution and therefore the plants can't take it up, or two that it will provide food or other encouragement to pathogens.


Okay so I've purchased access to a journal for a few hours and done a bit of reading.

The name of the article I'm reading is Growth Enhancement of Plants by Femtomole Doses of Colloidally Dispersed Triacontanol, and it was published in Science in 1983.

A few of the main gems I found include:

Preparation of a colloidal dispersion

The dispersion was produced by sonication--a sonicator will send ultrasonic waves through a medium (usually water) and can be used for many purposes--for this purpose the most likely reasoning was to create well-defined and nearly homogenous micelles (same size).

The triacontanol (henceforth abbreviated as TRIA) is definitely insoluble in water. To solubilize it, the researchers in the above article added surfactants (at 1% the molar equivalent of TRIA) which will form micelles around the TRIA and make it available to a cell. This action is very similar to the way humics and fulvics help bring nutrients in through a membrane. Essentially the TRIA will be encased in spheres of the surfactant wherein the nonpolar ends point inward towards the TRIA, and the polar ends point outwards to the solvent (water). Sonication will aid in this process.

Furthermore, dispersing the stuff into a colloid should help to reduce or eliminate any pathogens trying to get at it.

Dosages
While the does will be different for cannabis we can get a little more useful info out of this article. It seems as though the maximum benefit was reached at around 100 nanograms (1x10^-7 grams) per cubic decimeter. There was a falloff of increased growth (dry weight/water uptake) after and before that value.

That should suggest to us that there is such a thing as too much of this stuff if we're looking to optimize the use of this chemical in our gardens.

In a second article entitled, Isolation and Characterization of Triacontanol-Regulated Genes in Rice (Oryza sativa L.): Possible Role of Triacontanol as a Plant Growth Stimulator, and it comes to us from Plant & Cell Physiology--2002. There is evidence of what the mechanism of this stuff is--which can also lead us to some interesting possibilities, and cautions.

Regulated Gene Expression
So in the above article it was found that TRIA mostly up regulated photosynthetic and photorespiratory genes. Because I have a bit of knowledge on how gene expression moves forward in a biochemical way--I can tell you that there are likely many more, smaller, genes which are also being flipped on. However, the main purpose remains the same--this stuff kicks photosynthesis/respiration into overdrive.

It was also found that TRIA down regulated several stress and wounding response genes. Now I think it's important that we're careful here. It is commonly understood that terpenes (and ultimately THC) are produced as part of the plants defense system. It has been demonstrated through various methods (although not conclusively) that stressing a cannabis plant can be very good for terpene production (so long as you to don't stress it into a hermaphrodite).

It may be that there is an optimal time to add TRIA given the above data. You perhaps wouldn't want it's effects to be lingering in late flowering--but it could be useful to have around in veg and during early flower. Length of effect would need to be determined to put a nail on a number--my guess is that it's somewhere in the 2-3 week range.

A dose in early veg followed by a dose just before the flip would be a good place to start in my opinion--but again it's important to decide carefully what the dose will be.

Alfalfa meal contains this stuff naturally--and in fact I believe it was first extracted from alfalfa meal. An Alfalfa tea is a great natural way to supplement this chemical--but I think the results would be better if it were in a colloid rather than free in solution (or out of it, as it were).

This also brings into question, perhaps, of supplementing with an alfalfa tea too late into flower--you could (emphasis here) be depressing terpene production in late flower this way.

As for teas in RWDC--I really don't believe pathogens should give you too much trouble here--especially if you incorporate some anti-pathogenic tea components. Fighting pathogens is really one of the main benefits of using teas in the first place. Many people use teas only when they are fighting off some type of pest/pathogen (and they work wonders).

If you do some reading up on that level, I think you might find something that could benefit you. I'd also recommend looking into the fermented plant extracts thread on this forum--it has a great many recipes and these can be similarly beneficial (in terms of fighting off infestations).
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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I was hoping I'd see you here, Squiggly! Great info, even if some of it is a lil over my head.

So to summarize, your thinking is I'd be better off applying it as a foliar, and doing that in early veg. and early flower, but not later. What do you think of the 'calcium-25' stuff? From the sound of it, it sounds like they took the TRIA and bound it with calcium. Does that make sense given its chemistry?
 
Aerojoe

Aerojoe

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I run it in my rez w/ no probs. I also use my teas to maximize my beneficial bacteria/fungi, I add them into my teas and have them multiply.
 
1

1971

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just order the stuff up on amazon or ebay, get some polysorbate 20, and foliar spray with pH'd water at about 4-25 ppm. 20 bucks of the stuff lasts a long time. No need to get that expensive stuff like Calcium 25, super thrive, etc.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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Here's one of the interesting bits:
Pursuant to the present invention, the above problems have been eliminated by providing a chemical formulation which can be used with water for application to plant life. According to the present invention, 1-triacontanol is dissolved in a polar organic solvent in an amount sufficient to form a water-soluble concentrate. Typically, a concentrate can be formed by mixing together one part by weight (grams) of 1-triacontanol with up to about 5,000,000 parts by volume (ml) of the polar organic solvent, preferably between 1 and 500,000 ml of polar organic solvent to one gram of 1-triacontanol, more preferably one part by weight of 1-triacontanol to about 1000 parts by volume of the polar organic solvent and most preferably about one part of 1-triacontanol to about 40 to 140 parts of solvent. The polar organic solvent can be any water-soluble solvent or solvent mixture containing one or more functional groups which renders the 1-triacontanol solution soluble in water. This solution is then dissolved in a large quantity of water which contains metal salts and other plant growth substances with stirring and/or shaking. Alternately, other plant growth substances may be dissolved in the concentrate, the purpose of which will become clear in the following discussion.

I'd really recommend giving this whole page a read--some of it seems overly speculative, but there are some interesting ideas there.

It was mentioned that Ca 2+ can be a plant growth inhibitor by inhibition of auxin--so it is important to get the ratios correct.

From the above quote a "polar organic solvent" that you can use is ethanol. It has a polar end, a nonpolar end--and it is completely miscible with water. In these tiny concentrations it is also completely harmless to just about everything (and may even benefit some of your bennies, if you're using any).

I'd recommend sonicating rather than shaking--should give better dispersion. I think rigging a sonicator to an RWDC might have some cool/interesting effects.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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from what I've been reading, TRIA is best applied as a foliar, which then makes the calcium-25 doubly utilitarian, as designed it applies both the hormone and an immobile nutrient directly to the leaf surface.

Would be fun to make some of my own calcium and TRIA mix on the cheap, the site wants $150.00 for 4 lousy pounds of it.

I need to read up on the page you posted before I can comment further. As usual, Squiggly, you're stretching my knowlege of chemistry to the very edge and a little beyond- keep doing that!
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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Superthrive appears to be as controversial an addative as anything in the advanced nutes lineup! It admits to two particular compounds, and some sources say it has TRIA, while others don't say anything. Does anyone have any definitive info?
 
squiggly

squiggly

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As usual, Squiggly, you're stretching my knowlege of chemistry to the very edge and a little beyond- keep doing that!

Then I'm accomplishing what my goal is on this forum, and in life.

I just happen to be the type of dude who thinks chemistry is so cool and interesting that everyone should know more about it. It's one of those things that as your understanding of it furthers--it changes you and your perspective. For lack of a better way to say it--there are things that once you know, you cannot un-know. The world works in some pretty fucking crazy ways and the combination of those two things can lead to some interesting thoughts.

A trillion trillion trillion trillion molecules are going into this communication we're having, for example. For ever mole of substance between us involved in this message, there are 6.022x10^23 molecules of that substance. Trying to wrap your head around the numbers for something as simple as a small building is absolutely dizzying. Imagining the whole world and universe is something else entirely. That's just something about life that I don't think I'll ever get out of my head. It's like ever since I took a film class ( a good one ) in my early college years--I can't watch a movie without picking apart the cinematography, the camera angles, the cuts, the lighting. In some ways the story loses its glamour, but in other directions completely new and strange doors are opened.

As an aside--forget my comment about sonicators. Turns out the interesting results you would get would be something like killing your plants terribly. I think I may still do some experimentation here in the future, but after further reading it seems root growth is effected negatively by sonication in most cases (although it is a GREAT way to kill pathogens in a directed and selective fashion--if you know enough about what it is you want to kill).
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
Then I'm accomplishing what my goal is on this forum, and in life.

I just happen to be the type of dude who thinks chemistry is so cool and interesting that everyone should know more about it. It's one of those things that as your understanding of it furthers--it changes you and your perspective. For lack of a better way to say it--there are things that once you know, you cannot un-know. The world works in some pretty fucking crazy ways and the combination of those two things can lead to some interesting thoughts.

A trillion trillion trillion trillion molecules are going into this communication we're having, for example. For ever mole of substance between us involved in this message, there are 6.022x10^23 molecules of that substance. Trying to wrap your head around the numbers for something as simple as a small building is absolutely dizzying. Imagining the whole world and universe is something else entirely. That's just something about life that I don't think I'll ever get out of my head. It's like ever since I took a film class ( a good one ) in my early college years--I can't watch a movie without picking apart the cinematography, the camera angles, the cuts, the lighting. In some ways the story loses its glamour, but in other directions completely new and strange doors are opened.

I've said it several times already, and I'll say it again; this hobby is like going to school for botany, chemistry, physics, engineering, microbiology and more, only this time I'm the guy getting paid when I figure it out and put the knowlege gained to good use! I'm not sure I could say that about much I learned while warming a desk in college. All that experience taught me, in the final analysis, was that I better start thinking for myself and there's a bunch of people wandering around campus who can help me learn how. Of course, it's up to me to ask interesting enough questions to get them engaged...

Hey, I know Avogadro's Number! In fact, if you're ever in town, I'll take you there and buy you a sandwich, lol...

Something else I've been saying a lot lately, too; I think I enjoy the process of designing, engineering and building indoor growing spaces and processes as much or more than I enjoy actually operating them. Your talent is clearly the ability to understand the world from a rigorous chemistry perspective- and to explain it in ways people like me can put to good use. That's an extremely valuable skill and service, one that gets consistently underrated. I like to think that on my best days I'm able to approach that standard when it comes to growing equipment and systems. Other days, I'm just another self deluded moron, stumbling around in the dark, lol.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313

Yep, that's the stuff, and the outfit. Same company I have listed above in the original post.

Squiggly, as ever, has me wonderin if we could do something similar ourselves without the need to pay so much for it.
 

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