TRUE AEROPONICS - why arent more people using this method?

[mrflamboynt]

According to information that i have gathered, the root system needs to be completely suspended in air. being completely saturated by nutrients from a mister capable of droplets smaller than 80m... however according to information provided by Wikipedia indicates that if the droplets are too small, the root system will grow too many "root hairs", i mean, the way i read it the root zone will be too bushy and not enough length. which i thought was the goal.... seems to me bushy/hairy roots would be able to absorb a greater amount of nutes through the plant. BUT one of the advantages of a true aero setup is nutrient efficiency. as the roots are only supposed to get sprayed an average of 1% of the time. 99% of the time is spent in the air, receiving no nutrients.... interesting! seems like there wouldnt be very much solution that runs off the roots. no flowing solution.... could that create a problem with solution getting warm when just sitting in the lines when off-cycle? lots of questions and not enough answers....

so far i have only found journals/info (internet search) from folks using aero/hydro setups, not strictly aero. and the 100& aero systems are not detailed enough... maybe im missing a major design flaw.... maybe its not viable at this point in time.... i thought there would be many more people attempting this method. i was DEFINITELY expecting a lot more topics on this subject.... hmm... seems like there are huge advantages in quantity and quality (according to the "experts") just not enough information on how to properly execute.

anyway im looking for feedback from people with experience using this method.... please list pro's/con's, links, pics, or other info regarding this subject. especially regarding methods of properly, and reliably atomizing the nute solution, finding the right balance. so as to promote the proper size/shape of the roots....

thanks in advance

 

[willy led wonka]

i have a friend using the Appollo areoponic system and its really nice. I just ordered 1 myself. The reason you arent finding alot on areoponic stuff is that its not forgiving at all. If the power goes out your in trouble amongst other things. Its like a ferrari when it comes to plant growth. There's a video on you tube on the appollo aeroponic machine. You should check it out.

 

[ttystikk]

The Ferrari analogy is true, if even a bit conservative... Think of full aeroponics as Formula One- lots of very high technology, finicky, tempermental, often expensive and still in the process of proving itself in the real world.

If methods can be found to reduce the drastic consequences of common events- like power outages, for example- I think this could well be a very attractive approach. Until that time, I'd say that if you want to experiment with it, then be prepared to put a lot of time and effort in and wake up one morning to see dead plants. If that doesn't deter you, go for it! If on the other hand you're trying to make a few bux or just have a reliable source of head stash, I'd suggest a more proven route.

 

[Kobe24]

with Aero... You Snooze....You lose .... and when I mean lose...baby you lose it all!!!

The one time I smoked Proper Aero...it blew my fucken mind...still the most potent high to date no bullshit...

 

[Hermitian]

Aeroponics will save you costs in media. It will increase your costs in apparatus. The cleaning per cycle is about the same as hydroponics. The nutrient costs (if done properly) will be the same. It is viable for growing lots of short "single bud" plants. Keep in mind that the volume of roots is almost directly proportional to the volume of buds. Kobe24's comment about the strength is correct because the plants are finally getting the proper dosage of nutrients. However, the same results (strength) can be achieved with hydroponics on a regular basis if you are feeding the plants at their capacity.

 

[FLB]

The object is to address all three types of roots which takes a little more than tag. I mix in rdwc for that random power outage or that dumbass who forgot to plug the pump back in after mixing up rez. I like to compare aero to a rocket ship, if you can keep up the produce is 2-3 times what you consider normal. It is simple to maintain once you finally get all the kinks worked out.

 

[convex]

As stated, aero can be quite unforgiving.

However, even if all bases are covered and redundancies are in place, plant numbers become an issue.

Cheers

 

[Billy Pilgrim]

Don't have plant numbers to draw from, just trials of single plants in (32" dia.) Miro light tubes. Testing was done with 880 watts of 6500K PLL side lighting and 216 watts of top light for veg, switching to 3000 and 3500K lamps for flowering. Lamps are segregated and cooled separately from the root zone and foliage zone ventilation streams.

Four nominal 55 micron emitters were installed on articulating mounts that allowed two to be utilized during initial growth, increasing to two more staggered 12" below the first two, and being activated later as root growth continued. The pump used was capable of well over 120 psi but was regulated to 75 psi, and utilized with an accumulator and dump valve.

Operating temps were, reservoir and root zone kept at 66 and 68 degrees F. mean respectively, with a day/night variance of less than 3 degrees controlled thermostatically. The root zone container is fully insulated and light proofed, as is the remote reservoir and lines. Foliage is kept between a daylight cycle high of 75F. and dark cycle low of 66F. R/H was kept at 50-60% for veg cycle and gradually reduced to an average of 35% for flowering.

System feed/off schedule varied from 2 second/5 minutes to 1.5 seconds/3 minutes to 2.5 second/4 minutes depending on root mass development and foliage zone ambient R/H. Foam rings were used as initial plant stem supports as well as insulation between root zone and foliage zone. Support was later supplemented by overhead suspension. The foam ring was also cover with a layer of textured reflectant. Air circulation management of the two zones continues to be a challenge while attempting to maintain stable R/H levels and effective air exchange.

Canna Aqua nutrients and recommended supporting supplements were used exclusively throughout, and all water was pre-treated with H2O2, agitated, aerated and passed through a six stage R/O-R/I system and spherical coal carbon final polishing filter (the coal based spherical carbon is superior in absorptive capacity and service life due to the significant differences in manufacturing processes between it and the more common crushed coconut husk variety).

While this has not been completely "dialed in" as yet, the next trials will utilize a digitally regulated CO2 enrichment cycle, targeted at 900 ppm., increased light levels, and adjusted feed schedule. Reservoir aeration in the form of three tourmaline treated ceramic micro bubble plates were used to oxygenate and agitate reservoir contents. Special attention had to be paid to eliminate micro bubble accumulation on the suction side of the feed pump which can lead to cavitation. Excessive aeration also tends to raise pH levels, although not beyond target range in our application. A enclosed, non-pressurized three stage gravity fed screen filter set was installed on the return line.

Emitters were removed and replaced at bi-weekly intervals to allow demineralization/cleaning, resulting in no noticeable degradation of emitter function. Smaller diameter feed lines were replaced at monthly intervals purely as a preventative measure. All equipment was connected to a back-up generated protected service panel, with a separate computer style H.D. UPS system connected to the pump(s). A redundant pump system was installed that would allow a failed primary pump to be automatically by-passed in the event of a failure.

Yes, aero - whatever and however you wish to refer to it - is absolutely unfogiving. The absolute best results are realized when the root mass remains damp but is never allowed to dry anywhere. Avoidance of excess watering is constantly being juggled against allowing dry spots to occur which will immediately damage/stress roots. The root system will adapt to any feed schedule, but the trick is to maintain consistency. I await information on a leaf moisture sensing system that I would love to adapt to root zone use and thereby provide an additional fail safe feed circuit.

There is no real comparison between this and traditional hydro NFT, DWC, etc. when it all works. It is ridiculously expensive to fool with, and frustrating on a magnitude that you can't imagine when it doesn't. But if you desire to get the highest quality from the least amount of space, and you happen to suffer from an unhealthy dose of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, than aero is the only way to fly. For the average hobbyist my recommendation would be to stick with the aquarium pump/shrub sprinklers and the hybrid approach. It'll still produce like crazy, and you won't go nuts getting there.

 

[ttystikk]

Billy, it sounds like you have your Formula One car pretty well dialed in. I especially like the redundancies installed for power failure and pump failure.

I'd like to know what this does in relation to RDWC or another more conventional form of hydroponics on a head-to-head basis, with similar space and lighting.

So far, my RDWC is plenty demanding and time consuming, so if I chose this to reduce my gardening time, I fucked up!

 

[dextr0]

Aeroponics will save you costs in media. It will increase your costs in apparatus. The cleaning per cycle is about the same as hydroponics. The nutrient costs (if done properly) will be the same. It is viable for growing lots of short "single bud" plants. Keep in mind that the volume of roots is almost directly proportional to the volume of buds. Kobe24's comment about the strength is correct because the plants are finally getting the proper dosage of nutrients. However, the same results (strength) can be achieved with hydroponics on a regular basis if you are feeding the plants at their capacity.

I find that most of the time I will not see anyone go above 800ppm (TOPS! above that and the girls dont like it, it truly is like injecting the plants roots) using aeroponics. Compared to other ways that is less. Its a more direct way of feeding. U should also need less lighting...two things that everyone hates dishing out $ on.

There are no ready to go kits either. that one from genesis looks like way to many holes to close together....the atomix if its still out there looked really promising...but all together I think people are scared to take the leap and learn a new thing.

Hell its the Aesop always made sense to me, but I was, always will be interested in TAGGING!

 

[willy led wonka]

so, i stepped up and got an apollo 2 aeroponic system from hesistore. THese aerosystems are crazy fast and its totally wreaking havoc on my OCD. lol. ITs relatively simple at this point. However, im already learning that im wasting money on beneficials at this point, according to another thread here. From the ez-cloner to 20 days later the plants are right at 18" tall and they came out of the cloner around 4-6".

 

[willy led wonka]

the strain is purple og

 

[sedate]

From the ez-cloner to 20 days later the plants are right at 18" tall and they came out of the cloner around 4-6"

I have to be honest dude - not trying to be a dick that setup is very interesting - but if those were straight DWC tubs under a proper pair of 600w Halides I think you'd see something on the order of 3x that growth rate - and nothing nearly as stretchy as those 3rd and 4th pics look to me.

Like you'd be bursting from the sides with less than 1" internode length instead of those sunflower looking things - from the looks of those you are going to get like a
7 - 10g bud on top of each one and be done with it.

Traditional DWC/RDWC and HIDs ought have a ounce at least out of everyone of those plant sites.

You do have some time. Maybe I'm totally wrong .. I mean I doubt it but you know maybe ..

 

[willy led wonka]

oh i know,,,,,ive grown in dwc buckets for the last 15 yrs or more and im just tired of messing with the buckets after the hot ass summer we just went thru. I had to ice those things twice a day. At least now i can throw a couple of iced gallon jugs until i get a chiller for it. I have grown with the 600 hps lights for along time and im in the process of switching over to leds. These are bs900 lights and i know that lights wont be an issue and the quality will be better, but thats another story. I get between 8-12 ounces a rdwc bucket---so i get where your coming from-- those things produce great. And believe me,,,,i dont have all my eggs in this basket. Im still runnin nft tables and some buckets. lol
I chose to use purple og because it would stretch and then fill in. The nodes are around 2", and thats not really that far apart. I have other strains which might work better but right now im loving this purple og and want to see how it does. Im looking for 1.5-2lbs from this system. The thing about this, is i can go from the cloner to this and stay fully aero. It may take me a little while to get a handle on things, but its alot of fun again.

 

[willy led wonka]

i will try to take some pics with the regular light on---so its not so hard to see the plants.

 

[legitfrog]

pump failure same for aeroponics or hydroponics

The Ferrari analogy is true, if even a bit conservative... Think of full aeroponics as Formula One- lots of very high technology, finicky, tempermental, often expensive and still in the process of proving itself in the real world.

If methods can be found to reduce the drastic consequences of common events- like power outages, for example- I think this could well be a very attractive approach. Until that time, I'd say that if you want to experiment with it, then be prepared to put a lot of time and effort in and wake up one morning to see dead plants. If that doesn't deter you, go for it! If on the other hand you're trying to make a few bux or just have a reliable source of head stash, I'd suggest a more proven route.

I hear you on the Ferrari analogy. I don't get the pump failure thing though, isn't that the same risk for ALL hydroponics? It's either risk a power failure or hand water, right? I guess aeroponics needs power more frequently, like every few minutes instead of every few hours, so it is more risky but unless you check your room every few hours, the power failure risk is the same for hydro or aero right?

 

[legitfrog]

Any updates on the Apollo grow? I've seen these systems here and there and heard they get great results, much like the aerojet and aeroflo. Even though they are low pressure aero (LPA) and some might not consider those types of systems "true aero" they can perform. I was wondering if you were maybe getting some stretching from having your light too high? What do your roots look like?

 

[ttystikk]

I hear you on the Ferrari analogy. I don't get the pump failure thing though, isn't that the same risk for ALL hydroponics? It's either risk a power failure or hand water, right? I guess aeroponics needs power more frequently, like every few minutes instead of every few hours, so it is more risky but unless you check your room every few hours, the power failure risk is the same for hydro or aero right?

A good question, deserving of a more complete answer. As the man said above, if the roots dry out- at all- they stress and often die on the spot. This isn't news, since it's also known as air pruning. With aeroponics, if the pump fails for even a short period, say an hour or two, the roots get dry- and die.

Contrast that scenario with RDWC, where the pump isn't used to get the water to the plants, since the roots are bathing in nutrient solution already. This is much more forgiving, because even if the power fails and the airstones quit bubbling, it will take a day or so for the plants to pull the oxygen out of the water and start to drown. This interval makes it MUCH easier for a grower to catch and deal with problems.

In addition, DWC is much less susceptible to clogging than aero, due to all the emitters and lines running aobut. You can have plants suddenly stop doing well, only to find that an emitter is partially clogged. The trouble is, this kind of damage is tough to reverse.

 

[legitfrog]

A good question, deserving of a more complete answer. As the man said above, if the roots dry out- at all- they stress and often die on the spot. This isn't news, since it's also known as air pruning. With aeroponics, if the pump fails for even a short period, say an hour or two, the roots get dry- and die.

Contrast that scenario with RDWC, where the pump isn't used to get the water to the plants, since the roots are bathing in nutrient solution already. This is much more forgiving, because even if the power fails and the airstones quit bubbling, it will take a day or so for the plants to pull the oxygen out of the water and start to drown. This interval makes it MUCH easier for a grower to catch and deal with problems.

In addition, DWC is much less susceptible to clogging than aero, due to all the emitters and lines running aobut. You can have plants suddenly stop doing well, only to find that an emitter is partially clogged. The trouble is, this kind of damage is tough to reverse.

I can't argue there, ttystikk. It's safe to say that unwanted air pruning either from a timer or pump failure or even going after root fuzz and not spraying frequently enough in a hp aero system is one extreme and air and water circulation failure in a rdwc setup would be the other extreme, as far as the length of time in the threshold of plant life or death. You are 100% correct that rdwc is safer. The plants would definitely last much longer. Do you also think it yields more? Was there ever a consensus on the UC vs TAG/HPA debate I saw? Is it really that TAG offers a higher risk = higher reward deal, or is "Current" the winner?

One thought: There are ways to prevent and monitor clogged nozzles with aero, isn't it true that there are plenty of inherent risks involved in running a current system too, i.e. water temps, bio-slime, under oxygenation, etc thus requiring either a dialed in setup or much user input? (I personally like different things about both of those methods) ps--thanks for the intelligent convo!

 

[ttystikk]

I can't argue there, ttystikk. It's safe to say that unwanted air pruning either from a timer or pump failure or even going after root fuzz and not spraying frequently enough in a hp aero system is one extreme and air and water circulation failure in a rdwc setup would be the other extreme, as far as the length of time in the threshold of plant life or death. You are 100% correct that rdwc is safer. The plants would definitely last much longer. Do you also think it yields more? Was there ever a consensus on the UC vs TAG/HPA debate I saw? Is it really that TAG offers a higher risk = higher reward deal, or is "Current" the winner?

One thought: There are ways to prevent and monitor clogged nozzles with aero, isn't it true that there are plenty of inherent risks involved in running a current system too, i.e. water temps, bio-slime, under oxygenation, etc thus requiring either a dialed in setup or much user input? (I personally like different things about both of those methods) ps--thanks for the intelligent convo!

Intelligent conversation and intellectual debate are two of my favorite hobbies, thanks for the compliment!

Since I have no personal hands on experience with aero, I am not the one to ask about whether it's better than RDWC. Don't know what TAG/HPA is? Maybe you can fill me in?

The thought that come to my mind when you were asking aobut which system is better was that the ultimate performance differences between these various systems may be interesting technically, but for my money it's the grower's skill and dedication that make ALL the difference in yields and quality.

If we're talking about taking the grower out of the equation, then we can have that conversation- but that's like taking the baby out of the bathwater; it kinda misses the main point.

I know lots of people here have had great success and great failure with all of the systems discussed here. That's why I firmly belive that it's all about the grower rather than the gear.

I chose RDWC because of its great potential, low cost to build (I built my own, I didn't buy and off the shelf system) and relative ease of use... ..and I still had problems...