uc vs aeroponics

[Bobby Smith]

Conundrum time, would love your guys inputs. orders from pex supply above $300 get free shipping, the 35 gallon tank is 259.95 + $44.14 shipping = $304.09 http://www.pexsupply.com/Amtrol-147N130-THERM-X-TROL-ST-60V-Expansion-Tank-34-Gallon-Volume

The also have some relief valves and regulators that I'm not sure would work in the system but if they do could bump me up past the $300 needed for free shipping.
Relief: http://www.pexsupply.com/Relief-Valves-313000
Regulator: http://www.pexsupply.com/Pressure-Valves-221000

If none of those work then I may be best off going for this 44 gallon for $324.95 that qualifies for free shipping by itself. http://www.pexsupply.com/Amtrol-147N131-THERM-X-TROL-ST-80V-Expansion-Tank-44-Gallon-Volume Thoughts?

Personally, I'd go with the 44 gallon (but there's certainly nothing wrong with the 34 gallon and I'm already jealous :worried) - your pump will cycle MUCH less often (about once every day or two) if and when you get totally dialed with your feedings.

That being said, I also have this pressure valve from Watts, so you're gonna need one of these (required in any automatic setup, even though I have two pressure switches that would need to fail for this to come into play):

http://www.pexsupply.com/Watts-0371271-1-2-530C-Poppet-Style-Relief-Valve-3569000-p

I typed all the shit below in red, but after giving it some more thought, I'm wondering if there might be some value in having a constant PSI for every misting cycle.........of course calculations and whatnot would be easier........still not sold one way or the other.

All of the below in red is how I felt before giving it some more thought (although I'm still on the fence):

As far as the pressure regulator goes, I don't see the benefit/need for that if you're getting a pump and a pressure switch...........since tanks that can handle above 150PSI are almost nil around these parts (and it took a shitload of looking to find those that can handle 150PSI), the pressure switch/pump combo takes the place of a pressure switch in an "automated" setup.

Could I add a pressure switch so that my system always fires at 100PSI instead of fluctuating from 100-125PSI? Of course I could........but I really don't see the requirement in it - would my pump cycle a little less because everything is averaging 100PSI and not averaging 112.5PSI? Yeah, but higher pressures give us smaller droplets.................

If we had pumps (automatic, remember John, we're lazy Americans) and tanks that could handle being charged to 300PSI, then yeah, a pressure regulator would be the shit..........but since I'm (we're) pretty much maxing the systems out as we are, it's just something extra that could fail, IMO.

 

[Bobby Smith]

AA is the top tier of aero, you have to be very dedicated or slightly crazy to go that route :)
A recent test showed a single AA nozzle can fill a 27gal chamber. The mist contained just under 1ml (0.034 us fl oz) of liquid.
The same coverage with HP would take at least 4 nozzles. To deliver the same amount of liquid they`ll need to be 0.23gph each with a misting duration of 1 second. No run on allowed :)
For four standard 0.8gph nozzles you`d need a misting duration of 0.3 seconds. Its a tall order but doable with the right timer as long as the solenoids are right at the nozzles.

Was that test with root mass(es) in the chamber? Because I'd think that I'd rather have four of the nozzles below deliver in a half second burst than one AA nozzle - just conceptually, the coverage with four nozzles must be better, no? Especially when we're talking about root mass filling up the container?

http://www.bete.com/pdfs/BETE_MicroWhirl.pdf

 

[john guest]

you`d have to have some differential, running 100-102psi with a 34gallon tank gives you all of 0.6gallon before the pump kicks in :)
The regulator keeps everything constant, remembering that aero is all about control.

An AA nozzle is driven by compressed air. If you fire an AA nozzle into a garbage bag, the bag inflates and the mist is evenly distributed by the airstream. A hydraulic nozzle wouldn`t inflate the bag.

Here`s a couple of vids to show what sort of level of control is possible. These are AA nozzles but it`d be no different if they were hydraulic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXQWZVCBGpc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOiD7Cf_8Bo

 

[Bobby Smith]

you`d have to have some differential, running 100-102psi with a 34gallon tank gives you all of 0.6gallon before the pump kicks in :)
The regulator keeps everything constant, remembering that aero is all about control.

An AA nozzle is driven by compressed air. If you fire an AA nozzle into a garbage bag, the bag inflates and the mist is evenly distributed by the airstream. A hydraulic nozzle wouldn`t inflate the bag.

Ah hah!!

Thank you for simplifying it for my stupid arse :)

And yeah, I guess a regulator is a good call...........can anyone find one with 3/8" female threads? All I can seem to find is 1/2" and 3/4".

 

[john guest]

You should be able to get an 1/2"-3/8" adapter/reducer.

 

[deseee]

would this be the holy grail of pressure regulator/relief valve or is it too good to be true?

also watts does make some 3/8 regulators that go from 10-125 psi http://www.plumbersurplus.com/Prod/...r-263C-3-8-10-125-PSI-(0328060)/12824/Cat/189 but it's $103
http://www.amazon.com/Watts-Regulator-Temperature-Pressure-0004494/dp/B0006UWYYE

 

[john guest]

Too good to be true i`m afraid :)
I have a couple of italian caleffi`s like the one in the link. They handle inlet pressures upto 16-bar and the output is adjustable from 0-6 bar. I paid the equivalent of $89.50 each, they came with the pressure gauges. The gauge screws into the (capped) angled stem on the unit so its easy to add one.

http://cgi.ebay.com/CALEFFI-INCLINED-PRESSURE-REDUCING-VALVE-533451-3-4-NPT-/290416885192?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item439e31fdc8

Here`s the spec pdf

 

[Bobby Smith]

So, that link by Desee doesn't fly, huh?

I'm looking for a 100PSI regulator for a good price - Desee, any luck? Trying to search McMaster Carr for the one that this guy used but not having any luck (post #355):

 

[deseee]

how about this one?

 

[Bobby Smith]

Thats right, both air and water are controlled by the solenoids. If you think hp aero is complex you should try this route ;)
The biggest problem is noise, a silent compressor costs silly money and you can`t even store air to run for 24hrs as it takes too much space, a lot more than an accumulator :)
2 plants in a 150L chamber is my limit and its nowhere near a pound. I think you`ll need a fairly long veg and a pretty large tote for that. I`ve never kept the roots off the floor but its worth doing if you can get silkscreen cheap enough.

John, is there some reason that with a large enough AIR accumulator tank that one couldn't get away with a noisier compressor? Guessing that answer is that a large enough accumulator would have to be 200+ gallons, but figured I'd ask.

Next question - I'm not sure what specs to look at for the air compressor to determine how many nozzles it can run - what exactly do I need to look for?

I'd be looking to serve either 4 or 8 nozzles - however many I would need for (4) 75-100 gallon containers.

I found this, and for $500 vs. the $3000 they want for the Jun Air, it seems to be quite the deal (and better performance than the Jun Air, somehow - 10dB louder, but my current pump is probably more than that and doesn't bother me):



This one is a little more expensive, but still WAY cheaper than the Jun:

http://flowsolutions1.com/index.php...ducts_id=324&zenid=dved2k1p79qc1nk3fa4odo0dn5

And I'm curious about your nozzles - what type of feed are you using? Assuming those are Delavan nozzles - are those the exact Atomix nozzles or your best approximation?

My ADD is kicking in, in case you couldn't tell :) - trying to plan for the future and wanna get my plant counts down, and if AA really is better, I want nothing but the best for my ladies :)

 

[john guest]

Hi Bob
AA involves even more calculations than hp, you need a new set of formulas for compressed air.
A noisy shop compressor could charge a single tank to 8bar (120psi) once a day. The problem is to run 8 of my nozzles for 24hrs, the tank would need to be around 120 cubic feet, which is the best part of 1000 gallons.

The atomix used a siphon feed to make it plug and play, more user friendly. My nozzles (not delevan) are pressure fed which allows for more control and a lower air demand. The downside of pressure feed is it adds complexity and cost, its almost a full hp aero setup in its own right.

 

[deseee]

Hey John what do you think about these 3 pressure regulators?

http://soda-dispensers.com/Merchant...6-106&Category_Code=AirWaterPressProdWaterReg
http://www.plumbersurplus.com/Prod/...r-263C-3-8-10-125-PSI-(0328060)/12824/Cat/189
or do you have any other reccs?

also what pressure switches would you get? theres so many choices: unload/dpst/1port/4port/etc... not sure what ones would be best for this application also for some reason graingers site hates links so could you put the item code for the ones you like like this "SQUARE D 9013FHG12J52X"

Thanks again your knowledge is much, much appreciated :)

 

[john guest]

Hi Deseee
Looking at the specs, the Watts Small Water Pressure Regulator 26A (2 way) seems ok, its strange how the 3/8" is cheaper than the 1/4". I can`t really recommend any apart from caleffi as thats the only brand i`ve used.

Any pressure switch with an unloader will be designed for air compressor use, the unloader dumps the air pressure between the compressor and a check valve located at the tank inlet. Its easier for the compressor motor to start when its pushing against 0psi.
If you`re using the same pressure range as Bob, you might be as well using the same pressure switch, he`ll know where to get them too :)

 

[deseee]

Thanks John! Here's the spec sheet on that regulator, http://www.plumbersurplus.com/pdf/16234.pdf I'm thinking 26AD would be the way to go as you could play a little more with the pressure range since 26AC tops out at 125 psi?

 

[john guest]

The thing to remember is the smaller the pressure differential on the tank, the smaller the usable capacity will be. The regulated pressure will be the same as the pumps cut-in pressure.

If you decide to use 125 psi regulated you`ll have no more than 25 psi of tank differential to work with, 5.1gal of nutes in your 34gal tank. Dropping the regulated pressure to 100psi increases it to 10.3gal and with 90psi you`ll get 12.3gal.

I never run my tanks at their absolute maximum pressure rating, a little headroom makes me feel more comfortable.

 

[deseee]

Gotcha, I'll pick up the one that's only rated to 125 and besides that it's also about $40 cheaper. Buy it from here if you get one Bobby http://soda-dispensers.com/Merchant...6-102&Category_Code=AirWaterPressProdWaterReg

 

[deseee]

Is this the one Bobby? They don't make a DPST with 3/8th fitting so I'm guessing this is it? The only other one in 3/8th is Unload which John says we don't want.

 

[Bobby Smith]

This is the one I got; not sure what the difference is, but mine was $25 cheaper.

 

[deseee]

This is the one I got; not sure what the difference is, but mine was $25 cheaper.

1-Port 1/4" NPS (Female) instead of 3/8 and it's DPST instead of Sw (although I'm still not sure what Sw means)

That and price are the differences I see. Your system works fine with a 1/4" adapter though? I only wonder because just about everything else in the system is 3/8 and I just assumed the pressure switch should be too?

 

[john guest]

The sw is the 3-way selector switch for manual, auto or off.
manual, lets you override the pressure switch manually to turn on the pump, auto is normal operation and off is..off :)
Its not worth $25 as you don`t really need the manual or off options.