Upgrade Time...Completely Sealed Room

ttystikk · Apr 21, 2013

One Flip said:
A 14" would probably suck the lightbulb out the ballasts! What about a room set up where you have a scrubber.. Semi Sealed. Bare bulbs or vented.. But with massive air in and out set to temp and or humidity. You can have the AC as back up for when the outside air can't keep the temps down. How hard would it be to keep the humidity on point in this scenario? Would the savings in power be worth the swings?

A room is either sealed or it isn't. If you ventilate a room only at night to control humidity, it still isn't 'sealed', although in this case the benefits are worth it if you don't have a dehumidifier. The trouble with ventilating during the day is that it becomes extremely difficult to maintain humidity or co2 levels.

If you live in a humid climate, use ac. If you live in a dry climate, use water chilling as it won't dry your room out.

One Flip · Apr 21, 2013

ttystikk said:
A room is either sealed or it isn't. If you ventilate a room only at night to control humidity, it still isn't 'sealed', although in this case the benefits are worth it if you don't have a dehumidifier. The trouble with ventilating during the day is that it becomes extremely difficult to maintain humidity or co2 levels.

If you live in a humid climate, use ac. If you live in a dry climate, use water chilling as it won't dry your room out.

I was going to steal the resealable zip lock bag technology and put it into play. It's sealed, unzip to relieve the heat or humidity and then reseal.

I agree it would be hard to control the humidity with the lights on. that would be a big issue as you would be subject to the outside air..the Co2 levels would be ok because cooling 8k in a room that size the fans would come on every few minutes and exchange with fresh air.

You have a similar setup. What would you est your cost is to run your chiller each month?

And could can you cool and recirculate the water for the Co2 gen and still cool the room at the same time?

I always struggle like MG when it comes to creating heat and cooling it with AC. Ive been trying to make the leap but I usually just set up more lights and more fans.

ttystikk · Apr 22, 2013

I run co2 tanks, so that adds no heat. That was intentional, as cooling a burner would have cost more than tank refills!

I sealed and vented my 8 ocho hoods, which did a great job of keeping them running cool. That also helped reduce the load on my chilling plant. The chiller thus maintains temperature, humidity and water temps in my RDWC. I use no other cooling. The chiller is a 2 ton (24,000BTu) ChillKing unit, cooling a 55 gal drum with 40 gallons of water in it. This water then circulates constantly, so when an environmental controller needs cooling or dehuey, it kicks a fan on, blowing room air through the ice box hat exchangers.

Is important to understand that my chiller only runs when the water drum needs cooling. Thus, the entire system only draws the power it needs to remain at the set point, and no more. Between this and the inherent advantage of using liquid rather than air as a working fluid, a chiller system will save between 1/3 and 1/2 of the cost of cooling. In short, it's paying for itself relative to the cost of air conditioning.

Even better is the fact that it's small enough to move, so if it breaks I can take it to the shop and save the hassle of a house call. Meanwhile, I put it in the office last October, and so the "waste" heat wasn't wasted- it's been heating my house all winter!

One Flip · Apr 22, 2013

That sounds efficient. So i could cool the room and water for the Co2 gen since im not running RDWC?

Heating the house in the winter is a definite plus.. I did read the chiller vs ac thread a while back and the chiller sounded awesome. I'll go through and read it again..

If you had 20 1k non vented in a 20 x 35 space do they make a chiller big enough to cool the area? and do you have to up the res amount to support the size of the chiller.. I'm in Wa. With our climate up here would I be better suited with a chiller or a split.

One Flip · Apr 22, 2013

Mr_GreenGenes said:
I use all Fox Farm soils, both OF and HF, and nutes. I don't use their whole nute line...just the basics. I also add some lime to the soil...bout a cup per cu ft. Using RO water from a 200 GPD Hydrologic system. I might be changing over to a new soil mix once I get the new rooms up and goin. I do a 6-8 week veg from rooted clones and top/pinch/bend vigorously during veg. I like to keep my plants short and fat...theyre usually much bigger around that they are tall, strain dependant of course. Heres a link to some of my past grows/girls. Thanks for the input bro. https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/mr-greengenes-ganja-gallery-pics-from-the-farm.42569/

Nice Pics. I use FF too.. Im also playing around with coco and running the canna line. I've been milling around the farm now for a while going back and forth between 6's and 1k's and to seal or not to seal. Trying like yourself to be efficient as possible.. But I feel like no matter what i do my fate is sealed!

ttystikk · Apr 22, 2013

One Flip said:
That sounds efficient. So i could cool the room and water for the Co2 gen since im not running RDWC?

Heating the house in the winter is a definite plus.. I did read the chiller vs ac thread a while back and the chiller sounded awesome. I'll go through and read it again..

If you had 20 1k non vented in a 20 x 35 space do they make a chiller big enough to cool the area? and do you have to up the res amount to support the size of the chiller.. I'm in Wa. With our climate up here would I be better suited with a chiller or a split.

They use water chilling to cool the big buildings so no matter how big your op, there's a water chiller sized for you. Yes, you would likely have a bigger res., although cooling capacity isn't affected by res. size as much as cycling frequency.

WA has both wet and dry climates, depending on which side of the mtns you're on! So I need to know if you're dropping or dedicating, lol. In the dry, get a chiller. In the wet, AC is your best choice... unless you can afford a heat pump.

One Flip · Apr 22, 2013

ttystikk said:
They use water chilling to cool the big buildings so no matter how big your op, there's a water chiller sized for you. Yes, you would likely have a bigger res., although cooling capacity isn't affected by res. size as much as cycling frequency.

WA has both wet and dry climates, depending on which side of the mtns you're on! So I need to know if you're dropping or dedicating, lol. In the dry, get a chiller. In the wet, AC is your best choice... unless you can afford a heat pump.

I'm on the west side wet side. So a if I have gas available heat pump is my best bet? Btw thanks for answering all my posts in the past. You've always been real helpful:)

ttystikk · Apr 22, 2013

One Flip said:
I'm on the west side wet side. So a if I have gas available heat pump is my best bet? Btw thanks for answering all my posts in the past. You've always been real helpful:)

Heat pump is your most efficient option, irrespective of whether gas is available.

ttystikk · Apr 22, 2013

I will cop to a certain bias here; if you're growing in a space that's realistically available in a suburban home, say, no bigger than 20x25 or 500sq ft, then using co2 tanks is definitely the way to go. While it is true that tanks cost more than gas, the difference isn't much- and it will be quickly turned into a "negative difference"- or Increased total cost- one you've figured in how much money it's costing you to cool it!

The only times running burners make financial sense to me is for very large areas like greenhouses, and when the space needs the heat- again, like a greenhouse in fall or spring.

One more *possible* exception could be made for people who live in the mountains and have propane heat. In this case, they can often dissipate heat buildup more cheaply (read, Without paying for active cooling!) since their climate (specifically nighttime temps) remains cooler year 'round.

One Flip · Apr 22, 2013

ttystikk said:
I will codes to a certain bias here; if you're growing in a space that's realistically available in a suburban home, say, no bigger than 20x25 or 500sq ft, then using co2 tanks is definitely the way to go. While it is true that tanks cost more than gas, the difference isn't much- and it will be quickly turned into a "negative difference"- or Increased total cost- one you've figured in how much money it's costing you to cool it!

The only times running burners make financial sense to me is for very large areas like greenhouses, and when the space needs the heat- again, like a greenhouse in fall or spring.

One more *possible* exception could be made for people who live in the mountains and have propane heat. In this case, they can often dissipate heat buildup more cheaply (read, Without paying for active cooling!) since their climate (specifically nighttime temps) remains cooler year 'round.

Good info. How does the cooling & co2 come into play with ceiling height. I see a lot of people like dutchtouch / bc farmer and jackamyoffer roll with high ceilings. Would it be easier to control the heat / environment with 12ft or 20ft ceilings? With 20ft ceilings you could build a couple rooms inside a room which would make the setup and the control extremely easy. You could mount ballasts / ac's and everything on top of each room and filter out heated air from the ac's and whatever else escapes..If I were to go sealed I think this would be ideal.

When you change the direction of the thread and get your own ? answered.. Is this what high jacking is? If so sorry MG but tty is answering lots of ?:)

One Flip · Apr 22, 2013

ttystikk said:
Heat pump is your most efficient option, irrespective of whether gas is available.

Not sure why I threw gas in there.. I know heat pumps can be electric / gas.. Sometimes I type without thinking:)

ttystikk · Apr 22, 2013

If this is a thread Jack, it's the most ON topic Jack I've seen in awhile!

Since I'm not a professional HVAC tech and I have no experience with cooling growrooms with high ceilings, I'm going to say I don't know. I would side like to play with such a setup, however!

Amber · Apr 22, 2013

ttystikk said:
Every time I see someone buying ac and then dehueys on top of them it makes me cringe for their power bill. I got a big chiller to cool my RDWC systems, and it cools those, and the rooms- and does dehuey. Those who have not already bought ac and live in a drier climate should really consider this alternative, as it's a huge money saver!

How big is your chiller? Who makes it?

Amber · Apr 22, 2013

Amber said:
How big is your chiller? Who makes it?

Never mind I read on to get your answer on that.

Amber · Apr 22, 2013

One Flip said:
Good info. How does the cooling & co2 come into play with ceiling height. I see a lot of people like dutchtouch / bc farmer and jackamyoffer roll with high ceilings. Would it be easier to control the heat / environment with 12ft or 20ft ceilings? With 20ft ceilings you could build a couple rooms inside a room which would make the setup and the control extremely easy. You could mount ballasts / ac's and everything on top of each room and filter out heated air from the ac's and whatever else escapes..If I were to go sealed I think this would be ideal.

When you change the direction of the thread and get your own ? answered.. Is this what high jacking is? If so sorry MG but tty is answering lots of ?:)

I'm gonna go with yes that's thread jacking but please please proceed I'm so stoked I stumbled upon this plethora of great questions answered. I have such similar questions.

ttystikk · Apr 22, 2013

Amber said:
I'm gonna go with yes that's thread jacking but please please proceed I'm so stoked I stumbled upon this plethora of great questions answered. I have such similar questions.

On the subject of high ceilings, the cooling systems in my rooms are vertical to save floor space. At the top is an 8" muffin fan blowing hot air from ceiling level down through an 8" Icebox heat exchanger. This cools and dehumidifies the air, which then continues straight down through a 5' length of 8" duct. Underneath is a bucket to collect water, which is recycled into the RDWC system. The footprint is thus the size of the 5 gallon bucket under the ducting.

This works pretty well with uninsulated metal duct- if it were insulated and I had a ceiling like you suggest, I suspect the ducting would all but draw the air through automatically: the air inside is cooler and denser, thus it wants to drop. The taller the tube, the stronger this force. At a height of ten or twelve feet, the fan at the top might just be unnecessary, lol.

KUSHPILES · Apr 23, 2013

One Flip said:
That sounds efficient. So i could cool the room and water for the Co2 gen since im not running RDWC?

If you had 20 1k non vented in a 20 x 35 space do they make a chiller big enough to cool the area? and do you have to up the res amount to support the size of the chiller.. I'm in Wa. With our climate up here would I be better suited with a chiller or a split.

My current setup consists of a 14x15x8.5' room with 16 vertical 1000 watt bulbs. It flips with another room and both are cooled with a 5 ton heat pump in a mixing room. We did not plan on this many lights at this location, but seeing the efficiency of the heat pump increase as the water temp input lowered, we figured we would squeeze what we can out of it.

I'l have to look into the efficiency in terms of water temperature in the manual, I'd assume the curve is parabolic..but Il bet we're running way more than 5 tons out of that thing right now. Temps 78-80 all day long.

ttystikk · Apr 23, 2013

KUSHPILES said:
My current setup consists of a 14x15x8.5' room with 16 vertical 1000 watt bulbs. It flips with another room and both are cooled with a 5 ton heat pump in a mixing room. We did not plan on this many lights at this location, but seeing the efficiency of the heat pump increase as the water temp input lowered, we figured we would squeeze what we can out of it.

I'l have to look into the efficiency in terms of water temperature in the manual, I'd assume the curve is parabolic..but Il bet we're running way more than 5 tons out of that thing right now. Temps 78-80 all day long.

I would very much like to hear more about your cooling plant, as I don't get the chance to hear about other people's water cooled setups very often- especially one a bit bigger than mine, a size I might be upgrading to in the near future.

KUSHPILES · Apr 26, 2013

ttystikk said:
I would very much like to hear more about your cooling plant, as I don't get the chance to hear about other people's water cooled setups very often- especially one a bit bigger than mine, a size I might be upgrading to in the near future.

What would ya like to know ttystikk? We are currently in between runs and doing some remodelling so I haven't looked in the book for the stats yet, I will when I have some time. But it is 5 ton, i'd guess running at around 7 tons right now, since the water going in is so cold(right out of the main). We use our heat pump as an AC only right now, cooling 16 vert bulbs. There are three take off's from the unit, the main goes into a 12 duct with a valve that flips from one room to the other every 12 hours. The other two take off's are also 12 inch, open one at a time, depending on which room calls for heat.

Did I read people are also cooling water with these to use in recirculating systems? I could definitely utilize extra water cooling and am very interested in learning about where to pull the water from, or if I even have the right unit to do this with. The condensate currently drains and I don't think is high enough pressure or cold enough to use. The water going into the unit is at 40 ppm so it would be easy to use the cool water if i could pull enough out of the unit.

ttystikk · Apr 26, 2013

I use a 15' length of 3/8" inside diameter copper pipe, stuff for hvac contractors. I could it around a blank that was small enough so that the coil I made fits down into a 5 gallon bucket.

The water running through my chiller circuit- which does not mix with any other water, btw- runs through these copper coils and keeps my RDWC water temps at 60 as well. Other circuits go to Icebox heart exchangers that serve as the heart of the grow room's cooling or dehumidification system. ANY of the circuits servicing individual devices can be shut off and isolated by shutting off the valves to the intake and return manifolds, altering me to move, reconfigure or replace it WITHOUT taking the rest of the system offline. I thought that was a lil slicker than average, mah-seff!

Upgrade Time...Completely Sealed Room

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