What are the best organic nutrients that I can make or buy?

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C

CT Guy

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OMRI may be a joke, but it's the most easily found, readily available and easily recognizable designation for products at this time. Once other types of certification become as prevalent in the sales landscape as OMRI, then it will be a lot easier to not concern oneself with it.

I totally hear what you're saying as far as the popularity of OMRI. They do allow some preservatives/chems and still qualify though I believe. You may want to look into that.

As a company that needed to get an organic certification, I found that the Ag industry pretty much ignores OMRI, and in addition they charge an arm and a leg for the process and annual renewal. I just can't support it....

I'm hoping UP will weigh in on this thread, as he knows way more about it than me. :)

And as a consumer, I can see where the OMRI symbol is more reassuring than a product that just claims to be organic with no further info. At least someone outside agency has approved it. I totally get that....
 
true grit

true grit

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Just my two cents, but "organic" is more or less a buzz word - it does not really mean much. Different certification programs have different standards. What may be considered "organic" by one certification may not be considered organic by another, and there is no scientific consensus of what is "organically grown." There are many "organic" products that are actually quite toxic and environmentally unfriendly.

For example, IMHO, guanos have absolutely no place in an "organic" garden because they are pathogenic, toxic, cause massive environmental damage, and must be flow in from thousands of miles away. Yet I see many "organic" growers using them and turning their nose up at amendments like blood meal or natural minerals, which really makes no sense if you look at it logically. By the same token, at times the "non-organic" or conventional alternatives may actually be safer, less polluting, and more sustainable.

One of the biggest problems with many organic certifications IMO is the refusal to recognize natural minerals as an organic amendment. Minerals are absolutely essential to healthy soil and healthy plants - but since they do not come from an "organic" source (ie plants or animals) they are not considered "organic" by many. This is just flat out stupid.

If you are serious about organic growing it is important to be objective about what you are doing. I use OMRI listed products when ever possible, BUT I always keep in mind just because it is OMRI listed, it does not mean it is safe, or non-toxic, or non polluting. I always research what it is I am using and then decide if it really fits into what I consider to be organic and I suggest other growers do the same, rather than blindly following labels and certification programs.

Very well put brother man. And like we were talking about on the organic thread, you touched on exactly why Age Old Organics is questioned on organics- simply because they derive from natural minerals that can't be classified as organic...


CT- I agree, OMRI is nothing fantastic and frankly I could give a shit less if a bottle paid the extra for it on their label. It really doesn't mean much more than its a 'majority' organic...which means it may not be any more organic than any other organic standard/label/group or company that is putting effort into.

And after talking to some nutrient companies/reps/etc this weekend, many others not considered organic are often more than half organic (which under some designations can be considered organic), its just either a. too pricey to get certified or b. not worth the effort because of discussions like this. Some companies were claiming around 60-70% organic when tested and almost 0 heavy metal residuals. Some were even promoting synthetic additives to organic regs (aminos/etc) that were still letting finished product test over 90% organic and heavy metal free. Just comes down to money and marketing and who wants to spend it on labels for people to spot and buy. Otherwise if you have a reputable product with proven results- why bother.
 
R

RockPhosphate

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Age Old I've seen some people get good results with and I've also seem it kill plants. Their quality seems to be inconsistent - when the make their products properly they seem to work well. When they don't however, it can and will cause issues. I don't like messing around with nutrients that you never know what the expect so I avoid Age Old now as well.

Can you elaborate on how AO has killed plants?

I was using supersoil for a while, but I wanted to
cater to my plants needs more.

I've been happy with AO so far... This is the first
I've heard of consistency/failure. I'm curious.
 
Blaze

Blaze

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Can you elaborate on how AO has killed plants?

It killed several plants of a batch my partner did last year. Not sure on the exact specifics on what was wrong with it, but within hours of applying the Age Old, they started to have issues. Within a day or two many had died. This was with multiple strains, and the plants that did not get fed the AO were perfectly healthy so I'm 95% sure it was the AO that did it, since that was the only variable that was different with the plants that had issues.
 
true grit

true grit

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Think that sounds pretty isolated from my experience and everyone else I know running organics (all use age old in some shape or form), so I honestly wouldn't sweat it RockPhosphate. Going on probably 2 yrs myself using it after recommendations from growers using it from the beginning when they popped up in Ft.Co
 
Blaze

Blaze

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I think it was probably isolated as well. I have a friend who used AO with decent results for many grows and never had issues. I think it was simply a bad batch of fertilizer.
 
B

Bubblemang

Guest
Blaze,

No offense, cause i really respect your posts on here, but I do think OMRI is a joke. It's a self-created certification agency that really has no bearing on the quality of a product. They're just out to make a quick buck.

WSDA is a much better and recognized certifying agency. There's many others out there. Oregon has a good one as well.

Talk to UP if you want the full scoop.....

BUT, I totally agree with you on the rest of your post. Minerals are overlooked and very important. Guanos are mediocre at best and not something I"ve ever felt the need/desire to use.

But then I"ve never understood why anyone would use a bottled nutrient line either.....

lol, back to this. What I'll say is that OMRI is supposed to be a non-profit, but you know how that goes. UP has the details, I'm sure, as he is very much into the truth regarding the many organizations. Everyone with a hand in the organic pie. It's very much about making money and suppressing knowledge, surprise right?

With that said, I like the small amount of info they provide, it's better than nothing and I can provide info from them to show that my bottled nutes have synthetic micros, no surprise either.

You guys know I love the anti-guano vibes up in here, lol, :) and minerals, well, I'm using soft rock phos and having issues making it bioavailable like my plant derived nutrients. Maybe you guys can help with that?

But UP will tell you he uses some "green" guano from sustainable sources... seems like if we all used his sustainable guano source it would not be so sustainable. And bat guano is a doomed wide scale gardening source... what you think about collecting your own from bat boxes?

And we are talking about organic certs again, yet no one even knows about CA's new organic law. Anyone got anything on this AB 856?
http://jhbiotech.com/docs/AB-856-California-New-Organic-Law-Article.pdf
 
B

Bubblemang

Guest
No offense taken at all, I always appreciate your insights CT. Aren't pretty much all the organic cert programs more or less self created agencies though? I will keep an eye out for WSDA and Oregon Tilth but I do not recall ever seeing those certs on amendments or nutrients here in CA, at least in my area.

Though I agree with you 100% that you can just as good if not better results just with proper soil prep, not everyone has it down to an exact science as well as you do hehe :) Bottles do offer ease and simplicity, though at a much higher price both financially and ecologically.

When you have a deficiency or an imbalance, the bottled nutrients can help give you a quick fix and keep your grow on track. I must say though, I have seen some extremely impressive results in gardens that use a hybrid system of small, regular doses of liquid nutrients in combination with good soil prep and regular applications of ACT.

BOOM Blaze telling the TRUTH. Not everyone wants to grow in true soil. Especially indoors. Hybrid systems can be incredibly successful, and very interactive. It may seem crazy to use bottled nutes in combo with peat based "soil-less organic" mix, but it works well. Proof is in the puddin'.
52% THC Ice water concentrate, Blackberry Kush. 45 to 160 microns and still over 50%!
http://i1194.invalid.com/albums/aa378/MattRize/blackberrybubblezoom1.jpg
 
sycboy

sycboy

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If you wanted to go completely organic, try preparing Comfrey leaves as a liquid fertilizer which is high in N.P.K. You chop down the leaves and leave them to break down in a plastic bag for a few months, leaving a foul smelling natural liquid fertilizer. Growing this in your garden alongside having a worm farm for the castings would be ideal for organic farmers! Have a look at this link:

The best form of Comfrey is the Bocking strain that doesn't spread like wildfire. Unfortunately for all you Americans, this is only available in the UK. If anyone was to be really nice to me, I could post some to you...
 
M

Mmmmasonite

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I have seen great results from Biobizz.....Buddy used it with some sweet GDP.....I was pretty impressed......BIOBIZZ is from Holland and is the only OMRI and Globally certified organic nutrient....I am a chem(H&G)/ organic supplement guy but seeing is believing and I saw some great product from them...It's pretty cheap too
 
U

Udyana Peace

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Bubblemang

Humor me, okay? Why in the world would you think that I use bat guano or even seabird guano?

As in "Huh?"

Thanks!

BTW - once again, OMRI is not a certifying organization, i.e. it has absolutely no authority. Oregon Tilth is a certifying agency. Demeter is a certifying agency. CCOF is a certifying agency. All certifying agencies fall under USDA NOP (National Organic Program).

There's no 'gray area' or smoke & mirrors. Until you get into a nursery or worse - a grow store. That's where the games begin.

OMRI is a listing service as outlined in their charter (you can read at the OMRI web site). They also have one of the most lack-luster BOD you could assemble other than what the grow store industry would put together. Even FatBoy Mike at Advanced Nutrients wears a lab coat to give his presentations a little pizzaz.

If you read their own web site they state up front that their 'listings' are obtained (specifically) from Oregon & California's databases.

That would be fine if they stopped there but they don't - they 'list' crap that no other accredited group would touch and beyond that they're extortionists - the fee a company pays for the OMRI label on a bottle of gunk is determined by the gross annual sales for the manufacturer and not actual sales (real or projected) for a specific product.

Little tykes playing grown-up stuff and making money off of it to boot! YAY!

UP
 
U

Udyana Peace

133
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The best form of Comfrey is the Bocking strain that doesn't spread like wildfire. Unfortunately for all you Americans, this is only available in the UK. If anyone was to be really nice to me, I could post some to you...

Horizon Herbs in Southern Oregon carries both the Bocking 14 as well as true comfrey (Symphytum officinalis) if one has the guts I guess. 20 root bag of the non-invasive type is only $30.00

I've got a full raised bed of the Bocking 14 cultivar going this year - 100 s.f. for teas and biomass for composting.

UP
 
sycboy

sycboy

44
8
Horizon Herbs in Southern Oregon carries both the Bocking 14 as well as true comfrey (Symphytum officinalis) if one has the guts I guess. 20 root bag of the non-invasive type is only $30.00

I've got a full raised bed of the Bocking 14 cultivar going this year - 100 s.f. for teas and biomass for composting.

UP

Sorry, my bad.. I read somewhere that it was hard to get hold of in the USA. Glad that someone acknowledged its potential though!
 
U

Udyana Peace

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Sorry, my bad.. I read somewhere that it was hard to get hold of in the USA. Glad that someone acknowledged its potential though!

sycboy

It is difficult to source in the USA - there are maybe 3 or 4 suppliers and some of them source from Horizon Herbs.

Western European organic farmers are way ahead of the USA on using plant-based teas. There were bottled comfrey teas (fermented) going back to the 1930's in France and Austria (Rudolf Steiner's work) as well as bottled lavender teas (insecticide & fungicide) and even a nettle tea in France that was around for over 60 years before the company was purchased by Monsanto and quickly shut-down.

"Biodynamic Farming" - a good place to start using plant teas.

UP
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,596
638
I totally hear what you're saying as far as the popularity of OMRI. They do allow some preservatives/chems and still qualify though I believe. You may want to look into that.

As a company that needed to get an organic certification, I found that the Ag industry pretty much ignores OMRI, and in addition they charge an arm and a leg for the process and annual renewal. I just can't support it....

I'm hoping UP will weigh in on this thread, as he knows way more about it than me. :)

And as a consumer, I can see where the OMRI symbol is more reassuring than a product that just claims to be organic with no further info. At least someone outside agency has approved it. I totally get that....
Ayup, as an end consumer, we pretty much have nothing to go on.

This is TOTALLY reminding me of the transfat thing and government labeling requirements. If the total amount of transfat per serving is <.5g, then a product can legally be labeled as having zero transfats. But, here's the rub--try telling that to your body after you have serving after serving of a food that actually does have transfatty acids in it in amounts that add up to something rather significant. But hey! It's all legal!

So, now we're looking at labels for plant foods and the laws regarding labeling for those are even less rigorous. What does a body do? I have never once seen any notation or signs of certification by the other agencies mentioned, never heard of them, know nothing about them. And while this isn't my area of expertise, I've certainly done my best to become an educated consumer.

So, while they may be better, may have more meaning, being as how these orgs are, for all intents and purposes, completely unknown to the average consumer, that renders them currently meaningless.

Where lies the onus on learning of their existence--the consumer, or the agency/organization?
 
Blaze

Blaze

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263
Bubblemang
BTW - once again, OMRI is not a certifying organization, i.e. it has absolutely no authority. Oregon Tilth is a certifying agency. Demeter is a certifying agency. CCOF is a certifying agency. All certifying agencies fall under USDA NOP (National Organic Program).


OMRI is a listing service as outlined in their charter (you can read at the OMRI web site).

Thanks for clearing that up UP I did not realize OMRI was not a cert agency like CCOF or OT. Though that definitely confirms my whole "don't blindly follow labels" spiel hehe...
 
C

cheap

5
0
canna canna cannna canna canna canna canna canna canna canna all day
 
B

Bubblemang

Guest
Bubblemang

Humor me, okay? Why in the world would you think that I use bat guano or even seabird guano?

As in "Huh?"

Maybe I've confused one of the other guys for you. Good hear you are going towards veganic ;) And nice to see you again. Weather got colder this week ey?


canna canna cannna canna canna canna canna canna canna canna all day
Ruh-roh! I think you meant BioCanna! lol

Was it a good thing AB 856 was enacted to get a grip on organic labeling for garden products in CA? I guess UP doesn't want to acknowledge that, it's a total power play and has very little to do with standards (especially outside of CA)
 
U

Udyana Peace

133
0
Maybe I've confused one of the other guys for you. Good hear you are going towards veganic ;) And nice to see you again. Weather got colder this week ey?

The main reason that I don't use bat guano is for the reasons outlined by the Archipelago Bat Guano folks down in Tuscon, Arizona who are one of the largest importers of bat guano into the USA.

For container grows his own analysis of N•P•K on organic amendments (in general) was reason enough.

Was it a good thing AB 856 was enacted to get a grip on organic labeling for garden products in CA? I guess UP doesn't want to acknowledge that, it's a total power play and has very little to do with standards (especially outside of CA)

I think it's a good thing and it's good to see that they're following Oregon's lead on this issue - once again. ODA (Oregon Department of Agriculture) has gone after the grow store industry with impunity. Here's their most recent Stop Sale List which is published either monthly or bi-monthly.

Advanced Nutrients has really made an impression with this agency, eh?

LMAO

UP
 
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