When Does Veg Start?

[Mr.GreenthumbOG]

Some seeds, especially older, I give a week to 10 days before I start looking.
a sprayer to gently moisten is key to keeping ideal conditions, along with soil temps.

 

[growsince79]

Hello Farmers,

Longtime lurker, love to read. Now my question: When does veg begin in the timeline frame. I mean you germ your seeds, ie; paper towels, then cups of whatever your medium is, and then the little boogers sprout. OK, now when do you start counting as Veg? I hope I am clear, and thanks for taking the time for a reply.

Bless you all..
PatientOne

I count day 1 as the day the pads open. Others wait a week or two or three. IDK why they all want to be different.

 

[Frankster]

Some seeds, especially older, I give a week to 10 days before I start looking.
a sprayer to gently moisten is key to keeping ideal conditions, along with soil temps.

Thanks. I've been using my sprayer, and I've draped them with paper towels. I used some saran rap for the first day, but been doing towels since, and lightly spraying a few times daily.

I agree the mister is very important, especially during the part where it's trying to shed it's shell, and membranes. Dry is the enemy at this stage, but it can't be waterlogged either. fungi seem to be really important at this stage as well, they assist with maintaining the proper moisture levels.


Do you think I should go back to the saran wrap for these older ones? Or stay with the open air technique I've been using...

 

[growsince79]

Veg starts if its seedling when it has 3 nodes. Veg stars for clones soon as it gets roots. Thats exactly how they do it usally. Some do it bye how ever they want to...its really up to u. But thats how its normally done...

Why 3 nodes? Why not 2 or 4? WTF comes up with this crap?

 

[Mr.GreenthumbOG]

Why 3 nodes? Why not 2 or 4? WTF comes up with this crap?

People always confuse seedling stage with veg stage.
2 separate. As I posted earlier. Count the veg, for nutrients required, from first set of full leaves. Not 1 leaf, not 3. Full set. 5-7.
no food necessary until then. Except maybe a foliar cal mag at first set of true leaf stage.

 

[Frankster]

I agree with Greenthumb here. Those that come up with that "crap" are scientist, biologist, horticulturist. It's a set rule for delineating growth stages across the entire plant kingdom.


These are the little guys that give me the hardest time. Poppies.... So very tiny and delicate, and they love the cold.

 

[growsince79]

I agree with Greenthumb here. Those that come up with that "crap" are scientist, biologist, horticulturist. It's a set rule for delineating growth stages across the entire plant kingdom.

Heres what the scientists say

"The period of growth between germination and flowering is known as the vegetative phase of plant development. During the vegetative phase, plants are busy carrying out photosynthesis and accumulating resources that will be needed for flowering and reproduction."

Plants In Motion

 

[Frankster]

Heres what the scientists say

"The period of growth between germination and flowering is known as the vegetative phase of plant development. During the vegetative phase, plants are busy carrying out photosynthesis and accumulating resources that will be needed for flowering and reproduction."

Plants In Motion

I'm not disputing that, my guess would be that the germination phase is actually a sub-unit of the veg stage. I don't know exactly how it's divided for sake of learning, but it's all part of the same stage to some degree.

 

[growsince79]

I'm not disputing that, my guess would be that the germination phase is actually a sub-unit of the veg stage. I don't know exactly how it's divided for sake of learning, but it's all part of the same stage to some degree.

Germination is what happenes before the plant sprouts. When the plant starts photosynthesis its in the veg stage.

 

[Mr.GreenthumbOG]

Regardless Of when you determine your plant is no longer a seedling, or is ever a seedling
I don’t treat little 1 to 2 week babies, like I do when their established.
food, light, airflow, humidity. Is much different for the girls the first 2 weeks of their life.
seedlings!!

 

[Frankster]

Germination is what happenes before the plant sprouts. When the plant starts photosynthesis its in the veg stage.

I suppose we can debate the fine intricacies of plant development. That's not exactly my cup of tea, but it's certainly a fascinating subject. I would argue that germination happens as the plant sprouts, it is one and the same thing. I believe germination encompasses everything form the point where it's dormant, until it becomes a full fledged "sprout"

Germination is not a descriptive term of the plant itself at any single moment, but of a physiological process, a mechanism occurring within the sprout. It doesn't stop when the hull is breached, it continues on until the plant is fully standing.

Here's what I read: When seeds are planted, they first grow roots. Once these roots take hold, a small plant will begin to emerge and eventually break through the soil. When this happens, we say that the seed has sprouted. The scientific name for this process is germination.

 

[growsince79]

Regardless Of when you determine your plant is no longer a seedling, or is ever a seedling
I don’t treat little 1 to 2 week babies, like I do when their established.
food, light, airflow, humidity. Is much different for the girls the first 2 weeks of their life.
seedlings!!

I treat mine exactly the same except light intensity. Plant in cocoloco and use plain water first month. Start about 8-10K clf and gradually to15k at day8 and 20k day 15. 75-80f and 40-60rh.

 

[lvstealth]

I've been working my way through a great scholarly article that mentions this. I'm not a scientist, and probably barely understand much of it, but the plant's needs determine stage. Not the wills and wants of growers. What one person or another considers is not the proper way to approach this. Due to its illegal past, the science stopped and the bro-grow folks swear by this and that. If you want cannabis to lose the "under the dark of night" feeling it has, we need to get out of the habit of "but I've grown a hundred years and always called it so-n-so". There is sound reason to label and delineate the stages. Scientific reasons.

Till they get the internal signal to grow leaves with the right number of lobes (often 7) certain lights cause one thing, but in the next stage may be detrimental. Certain temps, humidity and root development occur in the different stages, we need to be able to say a word, like veg stage, and all accept the scientific definitions, no matter what we like to call it. For instance, if I asked about red and low red and purpose in veg, the set of conditions for after those leaves appear and before are different, and newly being researched in science using the delineations established by science, not what you call it. In Metter GA, we call a large mouth bass a trout, let me tell you, it doesn't work well! (Other things besides light, but that is just one specific they have actually got peer reviewed cannabis studies on.).

I'm all for each person doing any thing that they want, but the problem arises when groups want to discuss something but have to spend the first 20 pages establishing what joe grower wants to name a stage, then the next community uses some other word and, 20 more pages on that. Communication relies on words having meanings, not each person assigning their own meaning. Growers will always be considered just playing around if they don't at least get the words right.

 

[growsince79]

I've been working my way through a great scholarly article that mentions this. I'm not a scientist, and probably barely understand much of it, but the plant's needs determine stage. Not the wills and wants of growers. What one person or another considers is not the proper way to approach this. Due to its illegal past, the science stopped and the bro-grow folks swear by this and that. If you want cannabis to lose the "under the dark of night" feeling it has, we need to get out of the habit of "but I've grown a hundred years and always called it so-n-so". There is sound reason to label and delineate the stages. Scientific reasons.

Till they get the internal signal to grow leaves with the right number of lobes (often 7) certain lights cause one thing, but in the next stage may be detrimental. Certain temps, humidity and root development occur in the different stages, we need to be able to say a word, like veg stage, and all accept the scientific definitions, no matter what we like to call it. For instance, if I asked about red and low red and purpose in veg, the set of conditions for after those leaves appear and before are different, and newly being researched in science using the delineations established by science, not what you call it. In Metter GA, we call a large mouth bass a trout, let me tell you, it doesn't work well! (Other things besides light, but that is just one specific they have actually got peer reviewed cannabis studies on.).

I'm all for each person doing any thing that they want, but the problem arises when groups want to discuss something but have to spend the first 20 pages establishing what joe grower wants to name a stage, then the next community uses some other word and, 20 more pages on that. Communication relies on words having meanings, not each person assigning their own meaning. Growers will always be considered just playing around if they don't at least get the words right.

Who decided 7 is the magic number of blades a plant is supposed to have? I grown everything from 5 blades to 13. What about plants that never get 7 blades?
If everyone wants to be on the same page, the only place to start counting that makes sense is from sprout.

 

[Frankster]

Fully agree with you Ivstealth, and I think the earlier stages of development are especially important to hash out precisely, because things can be sorted out rapidly, and the gains created early on really matter down the line.

For me, Germination isn't just about popping out of the shell but also producing a spawn, much like mushrooms, establishing beneficial connections to the media, (I prefer not to move them, but will if it's benefical, it's better to pile, than to move) with the microorganisms that reside there. It's about becoming connected to the soil, or media.

Bottom line is that growing cannabis is much like a horse race, those that get out of the gate fast usually have an advantage though out the entire process, as long as vigor can be maintained. Understanding the process at work is critical to getting things right.

Germ *A portion of an organism capable of developing into a new one or part of one.

In * expressing the situation of something that is or appears to be enclosed or surrounded by something else.

-ation
* denoting an action or an instance of it.
"exploration"

• denoting a result or product of action.

 

[lvstealth]

Who decided 7 is the magic number of blades a plant is supposed to have? I grown everything from 5 blades to 13. What about plants that never get 7 blades?
If everyone wants to be on the same page, the only place to start counting that makes sense is from sprout.

As I said, for many it is 7. But I said it's, the plants normal number of lobes

 

[lvstealth]

From a scholarly article, discussing the difference some light lengths in seedling stage, have on a plants whole life

...plants grown under canopy shade conditions or in the proximity of other plants show a range of responses to changes in R:FR ratios of ambient light. This response, known as shade avoidance or the near neighbor detection response, is characterized by an acceleration of flowering time (i.e., becoming visible within the expanded floral bud) and rapid elongation of stems and leaves (Halliday et al., 1994; Smith, 1994). Kasperbauer (1988) determined that FR light reflected from neighboring seedlings increased the R:FR ratio plants received, inducing a density-dependent increase in stem length, chloroplast content, chlorophyll a/b ratio, and CO2 fixation rate, along with decreased leaf thickness. In recent years, the effect of FR light (or a low R:FR ratio) has been intensively investigated in different plant species and development stages”

So it specifically delineated seedling from veg, because the markers are established in the seedling phase for the rest of its life. Then, when it actually reaches the veg state, those same conditions are detrimental. So, huge difference in veg and seedling, and people can read it and know the definition of each stage and LEARN.

 

[Frankster]

As I said, for many it is 7. But I said it's, the plants normal number of lobes

So this delineates between sprout/seedling and "true veg", correct? True vegetative growth requires a full set of leaves.

 

[lvstealth]

Oh... And on the lobes thing, one of my bagseed plants has 9 lobes on the new leaves! Wonder if that might help figure out what kind it is! It's 4.5 weeks old and the extra lobes make it look pretty bushy and big

 

[Frankster]

From a scholarly article, discussing the difference some light lengths in seedling stage, have on a plants whole life

...plants grown under canopy shade conditions or in the proximity of other plants show a range of responses to changes in R:FR ratios of ambient light. This response, known as shade avoidance or the near neighbor detection response, is characterized by an acceleration of flowering time (i.e., becoming visible within the expanded floral bud) and rapid elongation of stems and leaves (Halliday et al., 1994; Smith, 1994). Kasperbauer (1988) determined that FR light reflected from neighboring seedlings increased the R:FR ratio plants received, inducing a density-dependent increase in stem length, chloroplast content, chlorophyll a/b ratio, and CO2 fixation rate, along with decreased leaf thickness. In recent years, the effect of FR light (or a low R:FR ratio) has been intensively investigated in different plant species and development stages”

So it specifically delineated seedling from veg, because the markers are established in the seedling phase for the rest of its life. Then, when it actually reaches the veg state, those same conditions are detrimental. So, huge difference in veg and seedling, and people can read it and know the definition of each stage and LEARN.

This is why I love perpetual type grows, because having them in all different stages of development can actually result in synergistic growth, if your strategically placing things in the garden. I don't know if any experiments have been done to validate this, but it's certainly something that cannabis have evolved with, learning how to exploit and manipulate the canopy.

There is so MUCH signalling that occurs in cannabis, they are masters of it.

It's likely written into the DNA/RNA on several different fronts. internoding, leaf tilting, length and thickness. I don't doubt for one moment that the ridges along the leaves, and finger numbers are naturally effective to working themselves above the canopy. these are merely adaptations, and the fully mature tend to predominate.

but these adaptations don't just appear in the macro levels, they are happening on multiple different cellular levels, eventually down into bio-chemical function. So they can be observed on several different fronts. There is so much to learn, and because the plant has been a mystery (Illegal for public research) for so long, were just getting started.