Which Nutrient is causing issue? (good Pics!)

squiggly · Feb 24, 2013

Watch the following interactive thingy,

when they talk about the see-saw you can imagine that the equilibrium in question is the uptake of something like nitrogen. When the see saw is shifted as far as it is in your case, no uptake can occur.

So the plant is pumping out protons to reduce the weight on the side of the see-saw. In a lightly buffered medium this would usually result in a local pH change which would allow for uptake.

In your situation its like if you had 90 bounds of baking soda and you were trying to neutralize all of it with vinegar by doing it with 1mL syringes 1 at a time.

Thats the uphill fight your plant is fighting. Bring that pH down.

The video:

http://www.wwnorton.com/college/chemistry/gilbert2/tutorials/interface.asp?chapter=chapter_15&folder=le_chateliers

The part where you change the "starting amounts" of the reaction is also very relevant. If you can understand what is happening there, then you understand the principle--and you'll see why you're having problems here.

LexLuthor · Feb 25, 2013

Oh yeah, and I'v never seen any fungus on those pics. That guy said don't use nutes/water and high light, so I think he was trying to be a douche and kill your plants.

dutchman · Feb 25, 2013

lex0415 said:
Oh yeah, and I'v never seen any fungus on those pics. That guy said don't use nutes/water and high light, so I think he was trying to be a douche and kill your plants.

I am not wondering anymore about blindness.....

To believe that a slight Ph disbalance causes such a disease when the plants are given normale fertilizer and good planting ground is still unbelievable to me.

And yes. continuing to feed these crippels who can not take any nutrients becasue of blockage by fungus infection plus gving them lots of light will kill them.

AND: if it is a nutrient or ph disbalance it would be cured completely within 2-3 days by giving nutrients without leaving traces.

BTW: my friends plants who were showing the exactly same symptoms are recovering quickly after giving Aliette two times with water so the main cause is probably a root fungus followed by other fungi on top.

squiggly · Feb 25, 2013

dutchman said:
I am not wondering anymore about blindness.....

To believe that a slight Ph disbalance causes such a disease when the plants are given normale fertilizer and good planting ground is still unbelievable to me.

You are just plain wrong about this. You need to study more about life science if this seems unbelievable to you--ALOT more.

And yes. continuing to feed these crippels who can not take any nutrients becasue of blockage by fungus infection plus gving them lots of light will kill them.

Dude where the fuck are you getting fungus from? Show me ONE PLACE in any of the pics where you see signs of fungus damage.

ONE.

AND: if it is a nutrient or ph disbalance it would be cured completely within 2-3 days by giving nutrients without leaving traces.

Again, this is totally untrue, especially in a situation where too much lime has been applied.

BTW: my friends plants who were showing the exactly same symptoms are recovering quickly after giving Aliette two times with water so the main cause is probably a root fungus followed by other fungi on top.

Oh, I get it, you've seen something one time at a friends house and now you think you're Dr. Quinn Amazing Marijuana Medicine Woman.

Newsflash, you're not.

LexLuthor · Feb 25, 2013

dutchman said:
I am not wondering anymore about blindness.....

To believe that a slight Ph disbalance causes such a disease when the plants are given normale fertilizer and good planting ground is still unbelievable to me.

And yes. continuing to feed these crippels who can not take any nutrients becasue of blockage by fungus infection plus gving them lots of light will kill them.

AND: if it is a nutrient or ph disbalance it would be cured completely within 2-3 days by giving nutrients without leaving traces.

BTW: my friends plants who were showing the exactly same symptoms are recovering quickly after giving Aliette two times with water so the main cause is probably a root fungus followed by other fungi on top.

At first I thought it was possible to be fungus, but after reading more replies, IMO it seems logical that it is far less likely to be fungus. A pH imbalance can do damage like that if you add lots of lime to a soilless medum that is already pH buffered to 5.8, with lime, and watered with a nutrient solution that is consistently around 6.5. That in and of itself will lock out at least 1 nutrient, doing this for too long will cause a chain reaction of lockouts due to the antagonistic nature of nutrients.

With multiple nutrients being locked out for a prolonged period of time, severe necrosis does and will happen, I've seen it with my own eyes just a few months ago.

You can have the best, high quality, balanced nutrient solution available, but if the pH is out of range and there is too much lime in a soilless medium, the roots will not be able to uptake enough nutrients, or sometimes any at all.

If it is fungus then you were right, but lets hope not for the sake of the grower.

LexLuthor · Feb 25, 2013

Again, Squigg beat me to the punch :( lol

dutchman · Feb 25, 2013

squiggly said:
Oh, I get it, you've seen something one time at a friends house and now you think you're Dr. Quinn Amazing Marijuana Medicine Woman.

Newsflash, you're not.

Sorry, I do not want to get involved in your Ego issues, that is the job of other specialists....

I just want to help some people with the fungi problems showing up everywherw now. Most probably caused by agrobiz and tomato plantations or the like . We see exactly the same everywhere now

the whole plant is clearly a wreck due to a root fungus. The pictures were sent to dutch expert grow forums and they clearly stated it is a root fungus.

Seamaiden · Feb 25, 2013

Hi dutchman. Ok, we get you, they clearly stated it's a fungus. I've asked at least once, if not more than once, based on what? There should be, and are, ways of telling whether or not the issue being discussed is indeed fungal pathogen in origin, or one of the nutrient issues that many of us, myself included, have witnessed that were finally determined to be nutrition-based and resolved via nutrient adjustment.

So, I ask again, these statements are based on what (observations)?

E.G. Someone posts a picture of a plant where most of the upper growth has interveinal necrosis, as well as spotting and necrosis on the leaf margins. I read that as a calcium deficiency, and I can explain exactly why.

Thanks!

LexLuthor · Feb 25, 2013

Ok, Dutchman, you can believe what you want, but for you to say, multiple times, its fungus and give him advice on how to fix it, I don't think that is the right thing for you to do. If you honestly think its a fungus infection, then tell him you believe its fungus and give him ways to treat his plants. But, in combination with telling him its fungus, you should also tell him to check other, more basic parameters first, like pH and EC, That, IMO, is good advice.

For you to say over and over again that if you give the plant nutrients, ect. it will die blah, blah, blah, without telling him to check any other possibilities, then that is bad advice because if it just happens not to be fungus, then his plants will die if he follows your advice.

I'm not arguing whether its fungus or not, but 1st he needs to fix his pH the way Squigg said, if that doesn't work (which I believe it will) then he should look at other possibilities, including fungus.

Good luck OP.

Seamaiden · Feb 25, 2013

Get this for an idea--getting the plant to optimum health as THE way around diseases and pests.

I'll let y'all know when I've perfected a technique!

theTinker · Feb 25, 2013

squiggly said:
....

lex0415 said:
...

I just looked at Canna's website, from what I saw they don't sell soil.. The 'Canna Terra Pro' is the only substrate I saw and its not soil, its a peat based soilless mix, ..

Guys, If this is indeed the issue. Is my face red.
I will immediately lower my water PH to 5.7 and that should help bring the PH of my soilLESS down.

I have been treating my substrate @
http://www.cannagardening.com/terra_professional_plus
as a soil for the last 2 years.... Always dealing with premature yellowing and red stems.

There seems to be conflicting reports on the net whether this is a soil or soiless.
As i'm in a desperate state and no nothing about it, I will bow to squiggly's reasoning and try it as soilless.

I shall begin preparations at once and will definitely get back to ye good folk.
Much obliged for the detailed analysis and explaination.
I didnt know about protons being exchanged for ions etc. I'll be sure to research it all very soon.

*Fingers crossed.*

theTinker · Feb 25, 2013

Very grateful for the help to you squiggly, lex and seamaiden.
Always very helpful to members of this forum.
Theres many a bud been saved because of ye!

squiggly · Feb 25, 2013

theTinker said:
Very grateful for the help to you squiggly, lex and seamaiden.
Always very helpful to members of this forum.
Theres many a bud been saved because of ye!

Not a problem.

As for the proton/ion exchange. Just think of this as the plant trying to lower pH to take up the ions.

I will reiterate--it doesn't matter if your medium were soiless or soil, you likely added too much lime for either case. This is about understanding what the purpose of soil buffering is.

Its not to totally prevent pH change--it is to slow the rate of change of pH.

If you mix too much of anything, or likewise if you hyper-focus on maintaining a single pH value, you will end up with these problems.

pH is meant to fluctuate in biological systems. There is no "perfect" pH--it doesn't exist. In fact the only imperfect pH is one that never changes (as far as biology is concerned).
pH change is an absolute requirement for life/growth. I think the vinegar/baking soda example here is probably the most applicable.

You're trying to "buffer" your soil against a few drops per day of vinegar--and you did it with the equivalent of 5 pounds of baking soda.

It wasn't "wrong" to add the baking soda--it was wrong to add so much of it.

midwestdensies · Feb 25, 2013

WHAT IS YOUR PH OF RUNOFF AND STARTING PH?
WHAT IS YOUR EC OF BOTH?
If you cant answer either may want to get a meter. This thread got real retarded long ago and some of the individuals with LD popped up seriously guys re read your posts.

Coco like a 5.4.-5.7 feed always I never ever feed above that unless weekly ph drifts and a little higher in late flower 5.7-6.3 due to different uptakeable minerals.
I never give coco strait water just light nutes.

mw

squiggly · Feb 25, 2013

midwestdensies said:
WHAT IS YOUR PH OF RUNOFF AND STARTING PH?
WHAT IS YOUR EC OF BOTH?
If you cant answer either may want to get a meter. This thread got real retarded long ago and some of the individuals with LD popped up seriously guys re read your posts.

Coco like a 5.4.-5.7 feed always I never ever feed above that unless weekly ph drifts and a little higher in late flower 5.7-6.3 due to different uptakeable minerals.
I never give coco strait water just light nutes.

mw

He answered that in the OP. It was waaaaaay too high (6.5). I agree with you--5.4-5.7.

In soil up that to 5.7-6.0.

LexLuthor · Feb 26, 2013

I thought soil was suppose to be around 6.5, this is a copy n paste from the Fox Farm website. Ocean Forest® is pH adjusted at 6.3 to 6.8 to allow for optimum fertilizer uptake.

Sunshine #4 website to to keep the pH between 5.8-6.2 and Botanicare's website says to keep the pH between 5.5-6.2 for coco coir.

Why so low (5.7-6.0) with soil and why 5.4-5.7 with coco, but higher later in flower?? I thought you would suppose to go low during early root growth and later in flower for easier P uptake.

Rootbound · Feb 26, 2013

squiggly said:
You are just plain wrong about this. You need to study more about life science if this seems unbelievable to you--ALOT more.

Dude where the fuck are you getting fungus from? Show me ONE PLACE in any of the pics where you see signs of fungus damage.

ONE.

Again, this is totally untrue, especially in a situation where too much lime has been applied.

Oh, I get it, you've seen something one time at a friends house and now you think you're Dr. Quinn Amazing Marijuana Medicine Woman.

Newsflash, you're not.

Could not have said it better myself!! I suggested checking PH early on as it is very important and not a hard fix. Usually the first thing on my list in the process of elimination of possible problems when issues arise.

theTinker · Feb 27, 2013

Its been 3 days since I change the PH of the water.
I have 2 sets of plants. The single mother under a CFL which is what the pictures were and flowering plants in my tent.

The mothers pot was easier to adjust by flushing with 5.8 water until it was about 5.9/6.0 and then given some food.
Its too soon to confirm but the upper new leaves have taken on a much darker green and waxy coating. The tips are all still burnt but these tips existed with the 6.5 ph. So still waiting on new leaves but the emerging leaves are definitely a deep green + waxy shiny looking .

The plants in the tent are much harder to tell as they are under HPS and lots of yellow leaves already exist. However where there was clearly a yellow deadening neighbourhood in my scrog. It now took several seconds for me to find the boundaries of that bad section so i believe its becoming greener already. Not so easy to say "there, look its all dying looking" :)

Very early to tell, but optimistic the new PH is helping alot.

I'll keep it updated and in a few days take some new pictures if all goes well!

squiggly · Feb 27, 2013

Great to hear dude. You may have other stuff going on but as a general rule I always start by confirming and re confirming I've got a handle on what the pH looks like.

I don't run hydro but I can't tell you how many times I've seen guys on this board and elsewhere check their pH and just move on to diagnosing other things--adding ferts etc.--only to find out later that their pH measurement had been confounded somehow.

I think I just read the other day a guy who checked his pH religiously and was having all these issues and turns out his pH pen wasn't in the dang res! Was just floating.

pH was in the high 3s, I think he saved the plants--but this is not an "exact" measurement in soil or any other medium so you need to be careful that you're being diligent about it. Check it several ways (input water, runoff, do a "soil ph" test, etc). Also be sure to constantly calibrate your various pH meters.

For hydro guys i absolutely recommend keeping test strips around, just to be sure the pen isn't super out of whack. They are cheap and easy to use and they are pretty god damn accurate. I wouldn't ONLY use them EVER, but they are a great fail-safe.

Capulator · Feb 27, 2013

for the record pythium will cause bad bacteria erwinia and that shit will make your plants leaves look fucked up..yellowing, crispy edges, brown spots etc..

so dutchman may be right after all.

Which Nutrient is causing issue? (good Pics!)

Which Nutrient is causing issue? (good Pics!)

squiggly

LexLuthor

dutchman

squiggly

LexLuthor

LexLuthor

dutchman

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

LexLuthor

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

theTinker

theTinker

squiggly

midwestdensies

squiggly

LexLuthor

Rootbound

theTinker

squiggly

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

Which Nutrient is causing issue? (good Pics!)

Which Nutrient is causing issue? (good Pics!)

squiggly

LexLuthor

dutchman

squiggly

LexLuthor

LexLuthor

dutchman

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

LexLuthor

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

theTinker

theTinker

squiggly

midwestdensies

squiggly

LexLuthor

Rootbound

theTinker

squiggly

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

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