Who's Using the pH Perfect Technology?

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K

knowboddy

I know there are other posts about the pH Perfect nutrients that Advanced Nutrients has come out with but I really want to limit the scope here to people that have or are actually using these new nutes and what their experiences have been. I'm sure there's a lot more opinions about these nutes but I would appreciate it if those who have opinions but haven't actually used the nutrients would just refrain from posting.

So please, no "my buddy's cousin grows with it" or similar stuff. First-hand knowledge.

Also, please make sure you're actually using the pH Perfect version of the nutes. There's the regular stuff and the new stuff, and the labels are different. (The pH Perfect nutes say "pH Perfect Technology" on the label.)

I've been really impressed by how rock-solid it holds the pH and my plants are the happiest I've ever seen them. I just started my second grow with these nutes.


How is everyone else doing with them?
 
SweetTooth

SweetTooth

It isn't any new technology. They chelate more ingredients which in turn makes them readily available at a wider ph range.
 
I

ibTheMan

Me and a friend used it (sensi grow and connie, new stuff) and we both quit, i think its not right, i use and have used Classic Connie for years and like it, i use alot of AN addes, and for veg i use GH, imo it still the 2nd best on the market next to classic connie, F that new crap it suck.
when i first open my new ph perfect sensi grow part B, it was all messed up with shit floatn in it, so i took it back and they replaced it with so clean stuff out ah new gallon, used it, plants looked worse ever time i used it, shit sucks imo.
 
Z

ziggy1

i have just run a full cycle of ph perfect sensi bloom a +b , b-52 , big bud liquid, overdrive and voodoo juice. I used tap h20 and not reverse osmosis water and it held my reservoir at 5.8 solid. The only time it went slightly up was when i was lazy and topped off the reservoir and didn't do a full change. The plants looked great and tasted fine. I usually run H&G aqua flakes in coco & perlite. So i am pretty happy with the new technology... no issues
 
squiggly

squiggly

i have just run a full cycle of ph perfect sensi bloom a +b , b-52 , big bud liquid, overdrive and voodoo juice. I used tap h20 and not reverse osmosis water and it held my reservoir at 5.8 solid. The only time it went slightly up was when i was lazy and topped off the reservoir and didn't do a full change. The plants looked great and tasted fine. I usually run H&G aqua flakes in coco & perlite. So i am pretty happy with the new technology... no issues

If there is almost no pH change despite nutrients being taken out/waste removed that means the product probably contains a buffer of some type.

Theoretically if you could find out the composition of the buffer you'd be able to apply it to a wide variety of different nute lineups, with similar pH holding capacity. Can't think of anything else that will hold PH like that. About how high did the pH go when you topped up? Also, about how much water did you add?

If the pH change is very tiny we could be looking at a simple buffer. If its fairly drastic (logarithmically speaking :P ) then that won't explain it. How are you measuring pH?
 
Z

ziggy1

PH only went up to 6.0 6.1 it was a 32 gallon reservoir and i would let it go down half way and add 15 gal to top off a few times in the cycle. Really stable and remember no RO water like they want you to use with it
 
squiggly

squiggly

usually adding water to a buffer doesn't change the pH. But considering everything else in the soup and the large amount of water you added, it sounds hella like it's buffered. That's a really tiny pH change--what is your water pH'd at from tap?
 
I

ibTheMan

everywhere around me the tap water is about 7.2 and PH with the new sensi was around 6.1 to 6.4 every time. i use ah small boy(not RO) and same thing, if it works for you though thats cool, i used Grow cause i use connie in flowern, and didnt like it, switched to connie, and they look alot better, to each his own, but we tested with the AN rep at the shop with tap water and PH was the same there to 6.4 to 6.1.
 
Z

ziggy1

I topped off w water and added nutrients according to the amount of h2o topped off with. My water is around 7.2 and 181 ppm.
 
SourPuppy

SourPuppy

Some good info guys-Thanx
I still have a few 4ltr jugs of the GMB sitting in the cubboard form 08- NE body have an Idea of what the self life is for these type of chem ferts??
 
Dr.Pepper

Dr.Pepper

the Sensi Bloom Two Part seems to work really well for veg so far... in two months i'll know about the full Bloom cycle and results. I don't really believe in Veg food really, makes plants too lanky....
 
squiggly

squiggly

I topped off w water and added nutrients according to the amount of h2o topped off with. My water is around 7.2 and 181 ppm.


If you're adding half your Res's volume in pH 7.2 water to a pH 5.8 res, and the pH only jumps up by 0.3--then that shit is a buffered solution. No two ways about it.

I had begun wondering to myself about a month ago if this method could be used to keep pH in balance--it's a wonder it took this long for someone to do it, this shit isn't rocket science by any stretch.
 
Giddeon

Giddeon

the Sensi Bloom Two Part seems to work really well for veg so far... in two months i'll know about the full Bloom cycle and results. I don't really believe in Veg food really, makes plants too lanky....

I had a similar thought this run in my MPB's. I've noticed that when I use the veg nutes in the beginning the plants always seem to develop a deficiency or other whack problem, then when I put the Bloom base in the plants go back to 100% healthy and the growth rate speeds up quite rapidly.

Also,

I use the regular AN Seni pack and even that will bring my ph down to around the proper range and thats with ph 7 tap.
 
dankworth

dankworth

Ph perfect was the excuse years ago to further dilute AN products so we used 2 ml/liter for everything.
We heard "oh it is for you retarded stoners that can't use a calculator. There. We did you a favor".
And "the new 2 ml/liter formulation is so it will be compatible with the ph perfect line, should be out any minute!"
That was years ago.

If I did not dtw, I would hook up the aquarium ph controller I got for under $200. And 2 peristaltic pumps with diluted ph up and down. And then I would set that shit to keep the ph within a certain range.
Problem solved. For $250 give or take.
Then I could use my 5 50 lb bags of salts + 3 lbs micros that I bought for $181.06. And fill up thousands
and thousands
and thousands of gallons of whatever nute ratio I wanted.
Which at this point for me is 3-1-2 veg and 3-3.5-8(or 2-2-5 or so) that I realized was best for my application, and copied from the big kids here.
And the way I mix, I get way more sulfur. Which does not interfere with uptake of any NPKCa or Mg. Which leads to more awesome smell, flavor, and potency.

Ph perfect my ass.
I say this with all due respect to posters in this thread. I believe the same result can be accomplished so much more inexpensively. Then we can spend the money on equipment to manage vpd or something.

Edit: Upon actually looking things up while not high, I discovered that sulfur can have an antagonistic relationship with calcium and potassium. I do not know to what extent. My bad.
 
T

treeburner

3
0
I know there are other posts about the pH Perfect nutrients that Advanced Nutrients has come out with but I really want to limit the scope here to people that have or are actually using these new nutes and what their experiences have been. I'm sure there's a lot more opinions about these nutes but I would appreciate it if those who have opinions but haven't actually used the nutrients would just refrain from posting.

So please, no "my buddy's cousin grows with it" or similar stuff. First-hand knowledge.

Also, please make sure you're actually using the pH Perfect version of the nutes. There's the regular stuff and the new stuff, and the labels are different. (The pH Perfect nutes say "pH Perfect Technology" on the label.)

I've been really impressed by how rock-solid it holds the pH and my plants are the happiest I've ever seen them. I just started my second grow with these nutes.


How is everyone else doing with them?

DUDE!!!

Thanks for posting this.

I've totally been looking at pH Perfect technology too, but I want to hear some REAL stories before I take the plunge.

BUMP BUMP
 
Dr.Pepper

Dr.Pepper

it's great stuff, but not a game changer from what i have noticed.... just very VERY stable nutrients, at a very precise ratio's.... over priced though in my opinion....
 
squiggly

squiggly

I'm fairly convinced according to previous testimony in this thread that the solution is pH buffered.

I've often wondered at this, but as I'm not familiar with hydro it hasn't even been that necessary for me to test it.

Regardless, I've found this website:

http://scienceinhydroponics.com/201...oponics-what-is-the-best-cheapest-buffer.html

This article covers an experiment that was done analyzing the behavior of several non-phytotoxic buffers.

It makes reference to a difficult chemical equation. Well, it turns out it's really not all that difficult if you boil it down a bit.

The equation in question:

pH = pKa + log( [A-] / [HA] )

to decode this for anyone who hasn't taken a chemistry course here are a few snippets:

p is a prefix we attach to numbers or constants which refers to the "negative log" of that quantity. IE pH = -log [H+]

The Brackets [ ] contain a concentration which is usually in M, or molarity--but can be in any units so long as they are the same, because it is a proportionality. So the pH thus denotes the negative log of the H+ ion concentration. These ions are what dissociate from an acid, to decrease pH. Strong acids, such as HCl, dissociate completely in water and become H+ and Cl- entirely. Weak acids like acetic acid only partially dissociate.

The dissociation constants are determined experimentally and given a value, Ka.

Taking the negative log of Ka gives pKa in the above equation. A buffer is only effective at pH values + or - 1 from its pKa. So a buffer with a pKa of 4 will be a good buffer between 5 and 6, with the best performance closer to 4.

To create a buffered solution, you add equimolar (same number of molecules) amounts of acetic acid and sodium acetate (when acetic acid dissociates it becomes H+ and Acetate, so you are effectively adding the conjugate base of the weak acid).

This creates a situation wherein if an H+ ion is created, an acetate ion will react with it to form acetic acid--and conversely if a hydroxide (OH-) ion is produced, the acid will react with it to form acetate.

At a concentration of 1:1 the buffer is very strong, at a concentration lower 10:1 in either direction the buffer is basically shot. This type of solution strongly resists change in pH--however it is important to figure out how much acid/base you plan to be buffering AGAINST.

If you have .1mol of both the acid and its conjugate base present, yet the plant will produce 1.0mol of acid or base--the buffer will deplete easily. So it will be, for anyone attempting to do this themselves, important to figure out what the right concentration to start with is.

For a little more chemistry fun I'll show you how Ka is derived.

Weak acids dissociate according to the following reaction scheme.

CH3COOH (acetic acid) + H2O -----(Ka)----> H3O+ + CH3COO- (acetate ion, conj base of acetic acid.) H3O is usually shortened to H+, while in reality it maintains its hydronium structure.

Before I show you the equation, I want you to understand why I wrote Ka in the middle of the arrow. Really this arrow should actually be two arrows stacked atop one another, one pointing each way. This denotes an equilibrium. Most chemical reactions proceed according to an equilibrium. Ka is a constant which denotes to what degree the dissociation of a weak acid goes to completion at equilibrium. There is a similar constant applied to most other types of reactions which is called Keq.

Very quickly I will suggest to you that these equilbria follow something called Le Chatlier's principle, which basically says if the above reaction were to be at equilibrium (the acid dissociated in whatever ratio it is at eq) and you add more acetate ion, the equilibrium of the reaction will shift left such that more acetic acid is produced. The same thing will happen if you were to take away some of the acetic acid--more will be produced to restore equilbrium. Likewise, if you take away acetate, equilibrium will shift right and some acetic acid will be converted to acetate to replace it. It is because we know this happens that we are able to establish a constant of equilibrium. We can test under various concentrations and discover the constant of proportionality between them.

To find the Ka at eq, or the concentration of an unknown reactant/product, the following formula is used:

Ka= [H3O] x [CH3COO] / [CH3COOH] [H2O]

Notice this is concentrations of products divided by concentrations of reactants. This form is conserved for all equilibrium calculations including those involving thermodynamics.

Moving along, we can drop the H2O figure for reasons I won't get into here. I will also refer to the undissociated acid as HA and the conj base as A-, and the H3O as H+

Ka = [H+] X [A-] / [HA]

We can play some cool games with this equation due to rules of logs, which i also won't go over.

Taking the negative log of both sides gives:

pKa = -log( [A-] / [HA] ) + -log( [H+]

Which leads to:

- -log( [H+] ) = -pKa -log( [A-] / [HA] )

This can be simplified to give the first equation:

pH = pKa + log( [A-] / [HA] )

The above equation essentially says that when the ratio of A- to HA equals 1, the pH = pKa. The log of 1 is 0--log asks the question 10 raised to what power equals this number, 10 to the zero power is 1. For instance if your pH is 5.8 then the concentration of free H+ ions is 10 raised to the negative 5.8 power, 10^-5.8= [H+]. Deriving the equation is a bit tricky, but now that we've got it plugging into it is easy.

If you are capable of making ppm/ppb calculations (and maybe figuring out a few molar masses--easy peasy) then you should be capable of playing around with buffers in your hydro system at fairly low cost.

Any questions, get at me.

Here is a good page discussing this topic further, showing the difference between a titration curve for a weak acid and a buffer composed of weak acid species:



There is no shortage of other material available out there for anyone to learn about maximizing the potential of buffers. This is a concept which is taught early on in chemistry training and thus there are many online sources intended to help students pick it up.
 
R

RustyShakleford

I am finishing up a Grow now using AN PH Perfect M,G,B with Big Bud, B52, Sensizime and CalMag. My plants simply could not handle full strength and therefor the PH Perfect did not work for me at all.

I cant say the nutes suck, cause my girls got WAY Bigger than I would have expected to the point of being TOO Big for my 400w light.

I will probably use something else next time. PEACE!
 
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