why are people stretching plants!!!...confused

[Hugo]

Short plants or large plants, that doesn't matter to me. The real question I'm trying to get the answer to is:

Do you guys try and attempt to keep the stretch to a minimum during veg to keep nodes tight?

Will this maximize the yield(I always believed so)?

I understand that through that 2 week window after flip that some plants may double in size, and other breeds naturally tend to triple in size,

But,

Through super cropping/topping/fim etc along with, and in my eyes most effective.,...
Negetaive differential(nighttime temps a few degrees warmer than daytime temps)....

Do u guys try and manipulate the stretch so that it's not extreme?

Do u try and keep the nodes tight on those stretchy breeds?

Or,

Do u find the big spaces will join up anyhow to form a long solid cola..?

Please advise.

 

[purpleberry]

You only scrog for 7 days???

KMK

7 days after I flip to 12/12. Im taking 16" plants that have been in veg for 8 weeks, planting up in 7g pots ,vegging for a few days til they start to be bent under the screen, then flipping, I take 7 days to keep them under the screen, the 2 ogs I run stretch for 3 weeks solid. I was doing 4 per light and getting 6oz a plant. Not a huge number some people claim, but 1.5 light is good. Now i have 6 per light with a mover, and 4 weeks in looks like ill get 5.3 a plant easy, that i need for 2 per light. Not saying i couldnt do it with a indica dom plant, But it would be more veg time in the flower room than 2-3 days. It would have to be 2 weeks. Id have to have the screen full before i flip.

 

[Dirty White Boy]

You for real? which breeders are breedn with short plants? Not many, and hell yah plants with a good stretch yield hella better, ive grown plenty of short breeds, it aint close, so before you spout off know what your talkn about.

........

 

[Dirty White Boy]

To awnser your question Hugo it depends on the grower and the equipment they have to grow with some people prefer using t5's to veg others mh and some just use hps. Some top some dont, I've said it before but ask 100 growers what's right and you'll get 100 different awnsers.......do whatever works for ya. There isn't a right or wrong way just different styles.......

 

[Hugo]

Short plants or large plants, that doesn't matter to me. The real question I'm trying to get the answer to is:

Do you guys try and attempt to keep the stretch to a minimum during veg to keep nodes tight?

Will this maximize the yield(I always believed so)?

I understand that through that 2 week window after flip that some plants may double in size, and other breeds naturally tend to triple in size,

But,

Through super cropping/topping/fim etc along with, and in my eyes most effective.,...
Negetaive differential(nighttime temps a few degrees warmer than daytime temps)....

Do u guys try and manipulate the stretch so that it's not extreme?

Do u try and keep the nodes tight on those stretchy breeds?

Or,

Do u find the big spaces will join up anyhow to form a long solid cola..?

Please advise.

Anyone?

 

[El Cerebro]

I think it depends on the light setup, balancing act between budsite #s and the larf line. Vert vs horizontal, scrog or tree shape, high ceilings, double stack, etc. I bet the guys trimming with machines may have an opinion. A little internodal space can sometimes be a benefit, better for getting light through the foliage, better for airflow. More than anything just how the plant likes to grow (maybe 'modern' genetics alludes to the OGK-style varieties adapted for efficient production?)

Last run I kept my temps tight like Hugo says, wish I would've let them swing a little for more stretch, but all new strains and I was being too conservative. All except for one spindly sativa-style plant, I would've yielded better if I had let them stretch higher (my limiting factor is heat, so less light density than I'd like, vegged and flowered both vert with multiple 1Ks). Also, most had heavy topping/training, so the small stretch that did occur was split over multiple main branches. Most of the action was within 16-20" from the tops and I pruned the larf, some solid colas depending on strain. Not advice, but hope this helps you compare..

 

[Hugo]

I think it depends on the light setup, balancing act between budsite #s and the larf line. Vert vs horizontal, scrog or tree shape, high ceilings, double stack, etc. I bet the guys trimming with machines may have an opinion. A little internodal space can sometimes be a benefit, better for getting light through the foliage, better for airflow. More than anything just how the plant likes to grow (maybe 'modern' genetics alludes to the OGK-style varieties adapted for efficient production?)

Last run I kept my temps tight like Hugo says, wish I would've let them swing a little for more stretch, but all new strains and I was being too conservative. All except for one spindly sativa-style plant, I would've yielded better if I had let them stretch higher (my limiting factor is heat, so less light density than I'd like, vegged and flowered both vert with multiple 1Ks). Also, most had heavy topping/training, so the small stretch that did occur was split over multiple main branches. Most of the action was within 16-20" from the tops and I pruned the larf, some solid colas depending on strain. Not advice, but hope this helps you compare..

Yes but if u weren't conservative and let them veg longer and tricked them when they almost got to ur finishing height, would u have gotten better results than if you let them stretch with bigger spaces between nodes?

Which results give u better yield? I would think the tight node....no?

 

[cemchris]

It comes down more to the genetics. Some plants are just strechy bitches no matter how you put it. As far as yield goes lol that's a funny argument. Indies and sat dom stuff yield for me. Depends on the strain.

 

[soserthc1]

Just some friendly advice - read logic new post in bold red letters - as this is a question that will have many different opionion's and i would hate to lose some good farmers over answering a question, keep it civil guys ..... peace....

 

[crom]

Do you guys try and attempt to keep the stretch to a minimum during veg to keep nodes tight?

IMO/E, No, I use a trellis to keep the canopy in line and the stretch only helps me fill in the canopy.
IF the strain is a stretcher you fill the screen/canopy less, prior to flip.
IF the strain doesn't stretch much veg it longer till the screen is fuller, and leave enough space to fill in the remainder of the screen/canopy during the stretch.
Stretch is in the eye of the beholder. What you do with a plants stress is up to you. Some train, some lst, some trellis, some hit plants with light from all angles, which I would see having a slight effect on plants stretch since there isn't an "up" to the plant as far as light is concerned. Now all of this is speculation from experience and common sense. I don't go ape shit on a 100% sativa, and expect 10% stretch, know your genetics, and what the characteristics of the strain/genotype are. Sativa dominant plants will have a stretch in one way or another, as well as a greater distance between nodes, naturally. Same with indica, just MIGHT not be as much of a stretch; due to the environment they came from. It's all relative to the genetics.

Now, why do Farmers seem to have more space between nodes then YOU, prior to flip? This is the real question being asked, or so it seems to me.

Will this maximize the yield(I always believed so)?

I believe that you know what your talking about, and you are on the right page, we are just talking the wrong language, some how. If you keep your nodes as tight as possible, no matter what your technique, I believe that you can maximize the most vertical space, an make beautiful heavy colas, that are sexy indeed. Like 2 oz colas! It is all up to the Farmer and what type of finished product you are looking to achieve, IMO. IF you are making hash oil ,for instance, and bag appeal isn't a priority what so ever then you might just grow huge pillar buds that you can break down for production. If bag appeal is your plan then you might want to scrog or sog to get those nice "small-medium" sized colas that you can actually move without separating the cola much. Say 4g buds. IMO I like the SCROG buds due to the size and the shapes that you get afterwards. Though outdoors I want HUGE long colas that are like 3' x 6" lol Again all in the eye of the beholder.

I understand that through that 2 week window after flip that some plants may double in size, and other breeds naturally tend to triple in size,

But,

Through super cropping/topping/fim etc along with, and in my eyes most effective.,...Negetaive differential(nighttime temps a few degrees warmer than daytime temps)....

Do u guys try and manipulate the stretch so that it's not extreme?

I think you can tame the plant during the stretch, or SHOULD train the plant to best support the future weight of the colas in question. There are tricks to minimizing the stretch, IE light spectrum, temps, carcinogens lol.

Do u try and keep the nodes tight on those stretchy breeds?

Or,

Do u find the big spaces will join up anyhow to form a long solid cola..?

Please advise.

Yes, I try to keep all my nodes in check prior to flipping to bloom. You are building the foundation for the structure of your colas/buds. Some plants, like Thai, have a decent distance between nodes, but the cola comes together by the time flowering has completed, should you have all your ducks in order that run. As we who grow sativas know, you don't just grow a sativa, you have to think that shit out, sometimes on paper prior to even cutting your first clone. You have to consider the length of time this large ass plant will be taking up your bloom space, indoors or out.

Hope this helps. No need to get in arguments boys! One love Tex! IbTheMan what's good bro? I know you both know your shite! I think we are just wording things improperly, and it gets confused in type. It's all love man! Not saying I know everything just saying in my experience node spacing IS important, but it doesn't necessarily correlate to stretch, and the maximization of the stretch for higher/max. potential yields. I think you are trying to say one thing and peeps are hearing another. Am I on the right track Hugo? Pretty ripped though. PS the strains Chemdog #4, Aliendawg etc are bad ass plants that are popular everywhere. As long as they are legit cuts/crosses.

Cheers,
Crom

 

[crom]

It comes down more to the genetics. Some plants are just strechy bitches no matter how you put it. As far as yield goes lol that's a funny argument. Indies and sat dom stuff yield for me. Depends on the strain.

What's up cemchris? How goes it homie? I agree that it is genetic. I have grown plants like Alien OG that one pheno is super sativa in structure and tall with a decent "og" stretch to her, like the Tahoe mom. Then the other pheno, Alien Kush, is short and squat with like a 3-6" stretch max. Funny thing I grew one of each of the Alien OGs I found outdoors in 10 G smart type pots, the Tahoe pheno was 7' AFTER training and staking. The Alien Kush pheno was 3' and FAT! I thought for sure the AK pheno was going to yield heavier, just because of the short squat indica dominant structure to the plant. At the end of the season they literally weighed out the same! Not exactly but not far off. Two totally different plants if you saw them you would say "oh nice Tahoe, and Alien Kush", totally different structure, bud density and shape too. So I guess it comes down to how the grower manipulates the plant, AND, more importantly, how the plant responds to said training/manipulations.:cool0019:

 

[Hugo]

Do you guys try and attempt to keep the stretch to a minimum during veg to keep nodes tight?

IMO/E, No, I use a trellis to keep the canopy in line and the stretch only helps me fill in the canopy.
IF the strain is a stretcher you fill the screen/canopy less, prior to flip.
IF the strain doesn't stretch much veg it longer till the screen is fuller, and leave enough space to fill in the remainder of the screen/canopy during the stretch.
Stretch is in the eye of the beholder. What you do with a plants stress is up to you. Some train, some lst, some trellis, some hit plants with light from all angles, which I would see having a slight effect on plants stretch since there isn't an "up" to the plant as far as light is concerned. Now all of this is speculation from experience and common sense. I don't go ape shit on a 100% sativa, and expect 10% stretch, know your genetics, and what the characteristics of the strain/genotype are. Sativa dominant plants will have a stretch in one way or another, as well as a greater distance between nodes, naturally. Same with indica, just MIGHT not be as much of a stretch; due to the environment they came from. It's all relative to the genetics.

Now, why do Farmers seem to have more space between nodes then YOU, prior to flip? This is the real question being asked, or so it seems to me.

Will this maximize the yield(I always believed so)?

I believe that you know what your talking about, and you are on the right page, we are just talking the wrong language, some how. If you keep your nodes as tight as possible, no matter what your technique, I believe that you can maximize the most vertical space, an make beautiful heavy colas, that are sexy indeed. Like 2 oz colas! It is all up to the Farmer and what type of finished product you are looking to achieve, IMO. IF you are making hash oil ,for instance, and bag appeal isn't a priority what so ever then you might just grow huge pillar buds that you can break down for production. If bag appeal is your plan then you might want to scrog or sog to get those nice "small-medium" sized colas that you can actually move without separating the cola much. Say 4g buds. IMO I like the SCROG buds due to the size and the shapes that you get afterwards. Though outdoors I want HUGE long colas that are like 3' x 6" lol Again all in the eye of the beholder.

I understand that through that 2 week window after flip that some plants may double in size, and other breeds naturally tend to triple in size,

But,

Through super cropping/topping/fim etc along with, and in my eyes most effective.,...Negetaive differential(nighttime temps a few degrees warmer than daytime temps)....

Do u guys try and manipulate the stretch so that it's not extreme?

I think you can tame the plant during the stretch, or SHOULD train the plant to best support the future weight of the colas in question. There are tricks to minimizing the stretch, IE light spectrum, temps, carcinogens lol.

Do u try and keep the nodes tight on those stretchy breeds?

Or,

Do u find the big spaces will join up anyhow to form a long solid cola..?

Please advise.

Yes, I try to keep all my nodes in check prior to flipping to bloom. You are building the foundation for the structure of your colas/buds. Some plants, like Thai, have a decent distance between nodes, but the cola comes together by the time flowering has completed, should you have all your ducks in order that run. As we who grow sativas know, you don't just grow a sativa, you have to think that shit out, sometimes on paper prior to even cutting your first clone. You have to consider the length of time this large ass plant will be taking up your bloom space, indoors or out.

Hope this helps. No need to get in arguments boys! One love Tex! IbTheMan what's good bro? I know you both know your shite! I think we are just wording things improperly, and it gets confused in type. It's all love man! Not saying I know everything just saying in my experience node spacing IS important, but it doesn't necessarily correlate to stretch, and the maximization of the stretch for higher/max. potential yields. I think you are trying to say one thing and peeps are hearing another. Am I on the right track Hugo? Pretty ripped though. PS the strains Chemdog #4, Aliendawg etc are bad ass plants that are popular everywhere. As long as they are legit cuts/crosses.

Cheers,
Crom

Excellent answer, u are right, it was a language thing. Thanks for your clarity

 

[Hugo]

Also, my partner seems to think that 12" clones are better and grow faster than 4" clones....

I've always grown my plants with the assumption that less energy for a plant to expend on shuttling nutrient up the plant due to plant size is a good thing...

He is saying that bigger clones puts u ahead of the game when it comes to vegging a plant.

I always concentrated on smaller plant size with larger rootball.

He says that the roots will easily catch up to the larger foliage from a clone that is 3 times the size of my 4" clone.

Remember, I have always tried to keep my plants tight even from clone...picking off noticeably lagging nodes to create that flat canopy effect.

So, when growing/vegging plants in a hurry, does a long lanky 12inch clone have the same rootball as a 4" clone when they are both 2 foot tall?

I keep thinking that the 12 inch clone is just too long and lanky and does not give the start that a sturdier 4" clone may have.

Can anyone weigh the pros and cons of either and tell me from real world experience if the 12" clone will out perform the stalkier, possibly bushier counterpart

Thanks

 

[Dirty White Boy]

If the clones are the same age rootmass should be the same size. Plant size does not correlate to how fast or efficiently the nutrients are shuttled through the plant ph and available nutrients to the plant, light intensity, environment dictate that. Calcium is the nutrient most responsible for plant metabolism.

A short stocky plant would be prefered for a sog or staked caged etc. Plants. However if your doing a scrog or maybe using cages a plant with larger nodal spacing would be favored. Again there is a 1000 ways to skin a cat.

 

[crom]

I think that a 12" clone just takes less time to hit the "magic height" to be flipped. A 4" clone will have 8" to grow to catch up to the height of a 12" cut. That is what your partner is saying. If you cut 4" clones, in his theory, it will take you more veg time to get to your magic height that you flip at. So if you flip at 15", let's say, a 12" clone only has 3" to grow and get trained prior to the flip. This just gets your bloom cycle STARTED earlier then a shorter clone would allot. Your boy hears "4" clones" and things 2 weeks veg to hit the "15" bloom height". It's all in the training and pruning really. If you want a clone that has nice node spacing out the gate, but is 12" tall, just cut the best 12" cuts with the best node spacing already established. This way you both are happy. You get a node heavy clone to start from, and your boy doesn't stress on time "wasted" vegging YOUR cuts to HIS preferred height. Make sense?

Cheers,
Crom

 

[MendoCruz]

Do you guys try and attempt to keep the stretch to a minimum during veg to keep nodes tight?

IMO/E, No, I use a trellis to keep the canopy in line and the stretch only helps me fill in the canopy.
IF the strain is a stretcher you fill the screen/canopy less, prior to flip.
IF the strain doesn't stretch much veg it longer till the screen is fuller, and leave enough space to fill in the remainder of the screen/canopy during the stretch.
Stretch is in the eye of the beholder. What you do with a plants stress is up to you. Some train, some lst, some trellis, some hit plants with light from all angles, which I would see having a slight effect on plants stretch since there isn't an "up" to the plant as far as light is concerned. Now all of this is speculation from experience and common sense. I don't go ape shit on a 100% sativa, and expect 10% stretch, know your genetics, and what the characteristics of the strain/genotype are. Sativa dominant plants will have a stretch in one way or another, as well as a greater distance between nodes, naturally. Same with indica, just MIGHT not be as much of a stretch; due to the environment they came from. It's all relative to the genetics.

Now, why do Farmers seem to have more space between nodes then YOU, prior to flip? This is the real question being asked, or so it seems to me.

Will this maximize the yield(I always believed so)?

I believe that you know what your talking about, and you are on the right page, we are just talking the wrong language, some how. If you keep your nodes as tight as possible, no matter what your technique, I believe that you can maximize the most vertical space, an make beautiful heavy colas, that are sexy indeed. Like 2 oz colas! It is all up to the Farmer and what type of finished product you are looking to achieve, IMO. IF you are making hash oil ,for instance, and bag appeal isn't a priority what so ever then you might just grow huge pillar buds that you can break down for production. If bag appeal is your plan then you might want to scrog or sog to get those nice "small-medium" sized colas that you can actually move without separating the cola much. Say 4g buds. IMO I like the SCROG buds due to the size and the shapes that you get afterwards. Though outdoors I want HUGE long colas that are like 3' x 6" lol Again all in the eye of the beholder.

I understand that through that 2 week window after flip that some plants may double in size, and other breeds naturally tend to triple in size,

But,

Through super cropping/topping/fim etc along with, and in my eyes most effective.,...Negetaive differential(nighttime temps a few degrees warmer than daytime temps)....

Do u guys try and manipulate the stretch so that it's not extreme?

I think you can tame the plant during the stretch, or SHOULD train the plant to best support the future weight of the colas in question. There are tricks to minimizing the stretch, IE light spectrum, temps, carcinogens lol.

Do u try and keep the nodes tight on those stretchy breeds?

Or,

Do u find the big spaces will join up anyhow to form a long solid cola..?

Please advise.

Yes, I try to keep all my nodes in check prior to flipping to bloom. You are building the foundation for the structure of your colas/buds. Some plants, like Thai, have a decent distance between nodes, but the cola comes together by the time flowering has completed, should you have all your ducks in order that run. As we who grow sativas know, you don't just grow a sativa, you have to think that shit out, sometimes on paper prior to even cutting your first clone. You have to consider the length of time this large ass plant will be taking up your bloom space, indoors or out.

Hope this helps. No need to get in arguments boys! One love Tex! IbTheMan what's good bro? I know you both know your shite! I think we are just wording things improperly, and it gets confused in type. It's all love man! Not saying I know everything just saying in my experience node spacing IS important, but it doesn't necessarily correlate to stretch, and the maximization of the stretch for higher/max. potential yields. I think you are trying to say one thing and peeps are hearing another. Am I on the right track Hugo? Pretty ripped though. PS the strains Chemdog #4, Aliendawg etc are bad ass plants that are popular everywhere. As long as they are legit cuts/crosses.

Cheers,
Crom

Great read! When did you start putting out your seed line on the Farm? I'm stoke to see what you do outside this year.

 

[crom]

Why thank you, kind sir. I haven't released seeds here on the Farm. I have some testers out on here though! Thanks for the interest!

Cheers,
Crom

 

[Hugo]

I think that a 12" clone just takes less time to hit the "magic height" to be flipped. A 4" clone will have 8" to grow to catch up to the height of a 12" cut. That is what your partner is saying. If you cut 4" clones, in his theory, it will take you more veg time to get to your magic height that you flip at. So if you flip at 15", let's say, a 12" clone only has 3" to grow and get trained prior to the flip. This just gets your bloom cycle STARTED earlier then a shorter clone would allot. Your boy hears "4" clones" and things 2 weeks veg to hit the "15" bloom height". It's all in the training and pruning really. If you want a clone that has nice node spacing out the gate, but is 12" tall, just cut the best 12" cuts with the best node spacing already established. This way you both are happy. You get a node heavy clone to start from, and your boy doesn't stress on time "wasted" vegging YOUR cuts to HIS preferred height. Make sense?

Cheers,
Crom

Yes I understand the height difference and the rush to get it out to flowering mode. I'm on board with that too...

But...

we in theory have 8 weeks to veg out clone. The flower room won't be ready for the vegged plants before that.

So, what would you think would be the healthier more vibrant bushier clone/plant?......

......a 12" clone with a few nodes up top vegged for 6 weeks

Or

.....a 4" clone with a few nodes up top vegged for 8 weeks

I'm all about creating sturdy clones from the get go.

 

[Texas Kid]

Oh I'm for real and have been doin this long enough and with enough plants to kind of have an idea what i am talkin about but maybe it is just my isolated experience...dunno....I do know that one year I ran almost 4000 plants from seed and a few years ago I ran over 200 different strains ( another 3 thousand or so)from seed, blowin and goin the entire time selecting like a mofo and I typically pop 20-30packs new strains a year and not one lanky climber made the cut yet..My criteria may be different, I select for yield, bag appeal, ease of grow, and a heavy hittin indica buzz

I ONLY select short stocky plants and especially for any pollen chunkin Im goin to do, my output per sq.ft. used is way way better with indica dom/short plants, almost without exception..I do however have some stretchy ass sat dom plants that I run but not for yield, but because they are crowd pleasers and give a little variaty in my finish mix out the door. Just so we are clear, my first culls are the tall lanky ones, every time, they never make it ot flower in my setup and I don't care if i was the last one of its kind

In most cases I can squat them down in flower if they are to unruley, tight light spacing and alot of it, super cropping, and topping usually do the best at keepin them in check in veg.

Alot of the Kushes with spotch out with long internodals and typically do not fill in during flower but rather leave many, many spread out golfball nugs but no real solid main colas, you still get the yield but not the dense full bud structure

I can run the Alien Dog either way, I can let it stretch out and be a lanky bitch like an old hashplant, Columbiam Gold, or even Trainwreck or I can squat that bitch down to a sqaut fire plug like a deep chunk...it works much better as a squat plant, better nugs, better yield, and doesn't eat near as much space in the flower room..

Maybe I should get ahold of some "modern genetics" though and see what all the fuss is about..lol...what would be on the modern genetic list?

Tex

 

[El Cerebro]

Alot of the Kushes with spotch out with long internodals and typically do not fill in during flower but rather leave many, many spread out golfball nugs but no real solid main colas, you still get the yield but not the dense full bud structure

This is what I was referring to, just figured it was commonly understood on this forum. I hand trimmed some kush last night and spaces were just enough room to comfortably snip the 2 big leaves easily, and deboning will go super quick with perfect shaped buds. They were almost connected but not quite, much less work than the leafier solid-cola plants I left for today (guess which made the cut for next run?) I'm running small numbers, and realize this would be opposite for a properly selected (less leafy) variety for SOG.

TK, you run a twister, right? Would your structure preference be different if you only had a top-feed (trimpro rotor, etc)? Maybe replacing 'modern' with 'hybridized over time for specific growing environments/goals' would clear the the debate? All that selection you did was pretty darned modern relative to genetic evolution..