Why Calmag All The Time???

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ArcticOrange

ArcticOrange

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I thought I was the only one at the grocery store explaining the benefits of "drinking" water to nosy people as I push an entire cart of 5 gallon containers.
Lol an old man at the store called me out once. I was pushing a cart full of distilled and he goes "if i didnt know any better looks like youre running an op" to which i responded "good thing you know better ;)"
 
MGRox

MGRox

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Guess I'm always R/o, save for a little bit where i did use tap to pH up. Ran mediums from full peat to full coir, but tend to run a combo. Have been able to illicit (individually) N-,P-,K-,Mg-Fe- in veg. However I've yet to illicit Ca- or S-. I have only seen the inclusion of Ca- in flower.

totally imho, but thinking about how it (Ca) got popular is probably related to many things. Over the years; more indoor ops, more growers using r/o, more using non-limed mixes, trend of increasing temps and CO2, trends of higher humidity, greater average ppfd fluxes to more grows and I suppose also trends changing some with NPK's.
Ca and Mg were already lumped together in research, where Ca:Mg ratios (or K to Ca:Mg) are often used I suppose. The company that makes calmag (which has Fe, N, Mg....and Ca) will probably net more "visible" response than another company selling only Ca. As Fe,N and Mg can all show a visible response within a short period. A response means "it works" right? haha. Naw, but it sure can help sales. Calmag has a ring to it, so that's gotta be worth somethin' too xD.

There are a few elements (Ca, Mg, K, S) that have essentially no, or stupid high toxicity levels for plants. As well, Ca sucks because when you actually see Ca-, it is often weeks late (low as days w/true hydros) and even then damage cannot be repaired. So, i suppose the trend is more of a "better safe than sorry". The only downside is that starts a cascade of changes required in other NPK components in order to net the same total "availability" prior to XX element being adjusted (Ca in this case). With calmag, this availability impact also must include N,Mg and Fe too lol.

In regards to nutrient solutions as a whole:
The cations all interact relative to their ratios with each other and similarly anions to themselves. Then cumulatively, total cation ratios have a loose interaction with total anion ratios. For every ratio of Cations and a specific plant (including environment), there is a point of optimal growth. Similarly for every ratio of anions there is a point of optimal growth. Further there is a point of optimal growth relative to ratios of anions (to themselves) and cations (to themselves). Including all 3 interactions, nets only 1 "most" optimal ratio of both cation and anions for a specific plant (and evnironment). For any ratios outside of this, growth can be optimized relative to those ratios. It is entirely possible for 2 completely different NPK profiles to have similar growth characteristics as a result of this. (i.e. total net availability is equal despite differing npk values). IMHO, Mfgs take advantage of this a bit.....
Lot's of ways to skin a cat.

D'oh! rambled sorry.
 
3N1GM4

3N1GM4

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If I use less than 6 ml/gal I get purple stems, if I use less than 5ml/gal my plants get really pale green in coco. I am using GH coco flower A and B from the getgo on autoflower seeds in coco. Is it because I am not giving them any nitrogen except what is in the calmag?
 
MGRox

MGRox

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How much of Cocotek Bloom A and B are you using? A is 2-0-1 and B is 1-5-5, so they both have some N.
You were using R/o right? Also, you pre charge the coir with nutes right?
 
3N1GM4

3N1GM4

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The coco I got from the hydro store and it said that it was pre buffered.

I started off with 5ml/gal cocotek a and b each, they are now getting 10ml/gal each with 6ml/gal gh calimagic

They seem to be liking it so I was going to bump it up to the strong dose which is 15ml/gal next watering.
 
MGRox

MGRox

597
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ok ty. So at the 5 ml or 10ml...you may well need more N for vigorous growth. Cocotek has a bunch of calcium though on its' own.
10ml of A and B (No calimagic) is 91-68-154-120-47 (Fe 3) (N,P,K,Ca,Mg)
(the 91 ppm of N is a bit low for vigorous growth, Fe plently otherwise fine)

10ml of A and B (with 6ml Calimagic) is 110-68-154-215-75 (Fe 5) (N,P,K,Ca,Mg)
(110 ppm of N is fine now, but 215 ppm of Ca and 75 Mg will reduce K availability (at current level). Fe @ 5ppm will quickly (along with P) get bound up with those higher Ca levels (relative to other cations).
Depending on your medium and watering there could be a fair bit of precipitation. With Ca and P or Fe; it's the total concentration of Both components (Ca+P or Ca+Fe) that determines the precipitation point there. Higher the medium levels built up of each; the less the medium can dry out without precipitation.
------------------------------------
Sticking with just those 3 components. (2 really, not using calimagic)
13ml of A and 10ml of B will get you 109-68-161-156-47 (Fe 4) (N,P,K,Ca,Mg) This is about the easiest way to "bump up" your N with those 3 bottles. (so, no calimagic) Would be decent for transtion or late veg periods.

10ml of A and 13ml of B will get you 100-88-193-120-60 (Fe 3) (N,P,K,Ca,Mg) This would hit real close to the lucas ratio (GH stuff goes that way) but with a bit less P. This should be a good ratio for full flowering stages (after stretch).

Not perfect ratios, but they should be good for just using cocotek. Don't see a reason for calimagic. Both of those options have good Ca:N ratios. You could tweak a bit more with Flora Grow prolly Edit 2: the bloom formula there would also allow for a small PK booster mid/late flower if you like. Probably not more than 1/4 Mfgs dose.
*Optional, If you by chance change to these, flush the medium well with full strength new solution to ensure that existing ions come closer to new proportions. Edit, but not if in mid flower heh.
 
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3N1GM4

3N1GM4

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I also have GH kool bloom bulking and ripening that I planned on adding later in flower(0-10-10 and 2-45-28)
I have some fox farm big bloom that I could add to the mix or I have the cocotek grow a and b
I was just giving them flower nutes from the start because I had heard that it makes your autos have denser nugs. The autos I am growing are from me pollen chucking a fem auto with photo pollen and all of the autos except for two of the ones I have been feeding only flower nutes to have been really airy and fox tailed.
Would you suggest adding some of the GH grow a and b to my 10ml of cocotek flower and cutting back on the calmag?
Also it is distilled jug water which I am assuming is the same as RO, I just tested a jug of distilled water with my pens and it reads 0ppm but a ph of 8.6? Does my meter pen need calibrated or is that normal for jug distilled?
 
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ArcticOrange

ArcticOrange

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I also have GH kool bloom bulking and ripening that I planned on adding later in flower(0-10-10 and 2-45-28)
I have some fox farm big bloom that I could add to the mix or I have the cocotek grow a and b
I was just giving them flower nutes from the start because I had heard that it makes your autos have denser nugs. The autos I am growing are from me pollen chucking a fem auto with photo pollen and all of the autos except for two of the ones I have been feeding only flower nutes to have been really airy and fox tailed.
Would you suggest adding some of the GH grow a and b to my 10ml of cocotek flower and cutting back on the calmag?
Also it is distilled jug water which I am assuming is the same as RO, I just tested a jug of distilled water with my pens and it reads 0ppm but a ph of 8.6? Does my meter pen need calibrated or is that normal for jug distilled?
Your ph pen reads H+ ions, distilled has no H+ ions so your pen wont read it correctly. This is normal.

My pen generally just throws a number within 2.0 of 7.0 when repeatedly testing distilled. This was done before I knew how my PH pen worked and i wondered how the pen was reading such wildly different numbers 30 seconds apart
 
MGRox

MGRox

597
143
Would you suggest adding some of the GH grow a and b to my 10ml of cocotek flower and cutting back on the calmag?
If you just use cocotek flower A,B; then I'd do the A=13ml and B=10ml with no calmag for veg. and A=10ml B=13ml no calmag for flower. 1ml of liquid kool bloom for PK booster.

If you have / will use cocotek Grow; then
I'd prolly do Cocotek Bloom A = 11ml and Cocotek Grow B = 14ml and Kool Bloom Liquid = 2ml no calmag for flower.
(gives; 107-63-215-132-41 / N,P,K,Ca,Mg)

All these dilute as necessary after mixing of course.
 
Midwestjay

Midwestjay

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I thought I was the only one at the grocery store explaining the benefits of "drinking" water to nosy people as I push an entire cart of 5 gallon containers.
Tap is horrible too drink Lmao. But it's an easier combo with flint and other cities in the news...Lmao
 
Midwestjay

Midwestjay

3,355
263
Guess I'm always R/o, save for a little bit where i did use tap to pH up. Ran mediums from full peat to full coir, but tend to run a combo. Have been able to illicit (individually) N-,P-,K-,Mg-Fe- in veg. However I've yet to illicit Ca- or S-. I have only seen the inclusion of Ca- in flower.

totally imho, but thinking about how it (Ca) got popular is probably related to many things. Over the years; more indoor ops, more growers using r/o, more using non-limed mixes, trend of increasing temps and CO2, trends of higher humidity, greater average ppfd fluxes to more grows and I suppose also trends changing some with NPK's.
Ca and Mg were already lumped together in research, where Ca:Mg ratios (or K to Ca:Mg) are often used I suppose. The company that makes calmag (which has Fe, N, Mg....and Ca) will probably net more "visible" response than another company selling only Ca. As Fe,N and Mg can all show a visible response within a short period. A response means "it works" right? haha. Naw, but it sure can help sales. Calmag has a ring to it, so that's gotta be worth somethin' too xD.

There are a few elements (Ca, Mg, K, S) that have essentially no, or stupid high toxicity levels for plants. As well, Ca sucks because when you actually see Ca-, it is often weeks late (low as days w/true hydros) and even then damage cannot be repaired. So, i suppose the trend is more of a "better safe than sorry". The only downside is that starts a cascade of changes required in other NPK components in order to net the same total "availability" prior to XX element being adjusted (Ca in this case). With calmag, this availability impact also must include N,Mg and Fe too lol.

In regards to nutrient solutions as a whole:
The cations all interact relative to their ratios with each other and similarly anions to themselves. Then cumulatively, total cation ratios have a loose interaction with total anion ratios. For every ratio of Cations and a specific plant (including environment), there is a point of optimal growth. Similarly for every ratio of anions there is a point of optimal growth. Further there is a point of optimal growth relative to ratios of anions (to themselves) and cations (to themselves). Including all 3 interactions, nets only 1 "most" optimal ratio of both cation and anions for a specific plant (and evnironment). For any ratios outside of this, growth can be optimized relative to those ratios. It is entirely possible for 2 completely different NPK profiles to have similar growth characteristics as a result of this. (i.e. total net availability is equal despite differing npk values). IMHO, Mfgs take advantage of this a bit.....
Lot's of ways to skin a cat.

D'oh! rambled sorry.
Great info, but the last paragraph was over my head lol. Thanks for the info tho, the rest of it made perfect sense
 
Midwestjay

Midwestjay

3,355
263
If you just use cocotek flower A,B; then I'd do the A=13ml and B=10ml with no calmag for veg. and A=10ml B=13ml no calmag for flower. 1ml of liquid kool bloom for PK booster.

If you have / will use cocotek Grow; then
I'd prolly do Cocotek Bloom A = 11ml and Cocotek Grow B = 14ml and Kool Bloom Liquid = 2ml no calmag for flower.
(gives; 107-63-215-132-41 / N,P,K,Ca,Mg)

All these dilute as necessary after mixing of course.
Thanks for all the great info. I'd love to understand the plants at that level some day.
 
burn1down2k

burn1down2k

55
18
I use well water 250ppm.. use GH expert nutes. Micro Hardwater. Bought the calmag as a per-caution but dont seem to need it. I would only use if have RO water or have deficiency signs.
 
P

Pimples

772
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I use well water 250ppm.. use GH expert nutes. Micro Hardwater. Bought the calmag as a per-caution but dont seem to need it. I would only use if have RO water or have deficiency signs.
Alot of people use r.o. water and dont really need to. Of course knowing exactly whats in the starting tap water with an analysis would be ideal...its safe to assume that without one...your tap. EC or ppm is largely comprised of calcium and magnesium carbonates. And some fluoride. That being said....if your tap is reading 0.2 to 0.5 EC ( 100 to 250 ppm) then this is the PERFECT start water to add a coco coir specific nutrient line with. Brands like Canna , House and Garden , GH Cocotek , Advanced Sensi Coco , Botanicare Kind and CNS 17 and all the rest have a ton of calcium and magnesium in the base. Keep total EC between 1.2 to 1.9 (600 - 950 ppm) and pH in the 5.8 - 6.2 range and all the strains i grow or have grown in coco coir have had NO problems. Additives like root and bloom boosters are largely overrated. Roots and blooms do just fine if your base feeds are grewt along with the room environment. I do like a silica and weekly foliar sprays of kelp extract and humic/fulvic acid in veg. But the high priced root and bud boosters....ive never really noticed that big of a difference than just a good coir specific base nutrient and not overdoing it in ppm's.
 
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P

Pimples

772
143
I use ro water because my tap water is 650 ppm 1.3 ec. I use calmag at 3 ml per gallon, otherwise I start seeing deficiencies.
Yeah. That high of tap...you need reverse osmosis. And bring it back up to about 150 to 200 ppm. Ive never experienced super hard water like that.
 
cemchris

cemchris

Supporter
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Calmg is the most over used product imo honestly. It has its uses (first 2 weeks of flower) but most people running bottled nutes have plenty of Ca/mg in the mix to start with. Most 2 part/3 part nutes you can just bump the Micro/A and get the same result. It also has a neg impact if you dont cut it back at the end of flower. Stopped using it a while ago and even with RO and shits just fine. I dont know where the whole mantra of use Calmg if using RO came from. Most major bottled nutes are formulated to start with 0 ppm water. Ask the company? Ofc you need to buy another bottle from them. Doesn't it strike you as weird when someone like H&G with their 12 bottles don't offer a Calmg product.

What's even more funny is when 90% of the people using it dont understand you have to mix Calmg first before any nutes besides Silica. Whole reason you always add Micro/A from 2 part/3 parts first. Usually where all the Ca is. Also why they are split into 2/3 parts.
 
P

Pimples

772
143
I agree. Calmag bottles are WAY overused. Back in the early days of indoor dope growing...in the very few hydroponic shops around. ...you never saw a calmag supplement on the shelves. Hell...there were only a few nutrient brands to choose from. Nope. The first time i saw a cal magnesium nutrient was in a mom and pop stright nursery store...and it was a powder in a box. Meant to prevent blossom end rot for tomatos. I suspect the popularity relatively recently of Calmag products is from growers using r.o. filters and using coco coir as the medium of choice. Back in the day it was all Promix and Sunshine peat based mixes. Big bags of dolomite lime flour was the additive all the growers (not many compared to now) bought for that. And rockwool slab drip systems. Rockwool was king back then. What i dont get is if calcium amd magnesium carbonates are largely unusable (too big for roots to absorb) ....then how come if you strip it out of your tap with a reverse osmosis filter you will sometimes see a deficiency?
 
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