Why Coco Is Hydro And Soil Isn't?

[Enforcer]

All killer info I just want to point one thing out incase others who are interested in growing organically are reading,

Most organic people wont use perlite because it floats to the top and your soil becomes compact over time. Pumice or lava rock is the goto

Good point. Thanks man

 

[bibiking]

That’s exactly what I run and why I run it

Thank you. what do you mean "exactly what I run"? do you use soil with chemical nutes also (like me)? that would be good to know :)

for now it works good, much better than all other Hydro systems I've tried

about buckets - how do you know your roots condition if you can't see it?
for this I prefer nets (but maybe I'm wrong?)

 

[bibiking]

The net pot is a bad idea

My roots are in darkness, of course. I use net to see the roots, and I plant it again and again in bigger nets each time the roots go out of the net. Do you still think it is a bad idea?

That’s 32oz of water to 60ml H2O2

about your dozes - you are making it 100 times stronger than what I did (and I worked according to what I read in other forums). is it working good for you?
just to make sure - you are adding it to the water that your plants drink, yes?

thanks a lot :)

 

[Enforcer]

My roots are in darkness, of course. I use net to see the roots, and I plant it again and again in bigger nets each time the roots go out of the net. Do you still think it is a bad idea?


about your dozes - you are making it 100 times stronger than what I did (and I worked according to what I read in other forums). is it working good for you?
just to make sure - you are adding it to the water that your plants drink, yes?

thanks a lot :)

Yes, I still think it’s a bad idea. But to each his own.

Yes, this ratio works well for me. I just use it to spray down surfaces. No, I don’t add it to the res. I use microbes and the H2O2 would kill them.

 

[gwheels]

I think coco is easier than soil. Get the right ratio of nutes and feed it every time. Very little guess work when you get it right. With RO water add 150PPM of calmag and then nute up your water.

Every time.

No guessing but you do need a PH and TDS meter (Waterproof and a good one you need it a lot).

I got bugs in a bag of fancy soil once and i liked coco ever since except outdoor and then i like happy frog.

 

[bibiking]

Yes, I still think it’s a bad idea. But to each his own.

Yes, this ratio works well for me. I just use it to spray down surfaces. No, I don’t add it to the res. I use microbes and the H2O2 would kill them.

Thank you, you've been a great help

 

[cemchris]

Ive been a hydro grower for 15 plus years. I don't know where the manta of having a lot of seat time before you try and move to hydro came from but IMHO Organic soil guys WHO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING are at the top of their game and have had a lot of failure before they got to where they are at. Can I grow full organic soil? Sure. Can I kill it like some of these dudes. Def not. That is a skill that comes from years of trial and error. Same thing can be said about the hydro game. Hydro though speaks to certain type of person that like to take a lot of notes and likes to tinker a lot. More hands on. It is a lot more cut and dry. AT the same time its a lot more variables and a lot more things to mess up. The difference is you can have an ok soil grow and still have some decent smoke. Fucking up in hydro you can kill a crop pretty easily.

I think the big mistake new growers make is reading too far into some techniques and thinking they should jump into advanced techs before they get the basics down. K.I.S.S. is the best advice I can give you and it holds true more then anything. Keep it Simple Stupid. Soil + water + some amendments. Simple. Start getting that down to where you don't even have to think about it and and getting stellar results and then move the game up. DWC you are dealing with add backs, meters, water temp, diseases, rot, lockout, nute compatibility, less buffer, more ph control, and so on. Not to say you cant do it just know what you are biting off and understand that from the get go.

As far as H202. .5ml a gal of 34% is a good starting point. You need to add it about every 4 days or so.

 

[cemchris]

I guess to answer your original question is coco/peat is considered soil-less because most of the time you use strait unamended coco/peat and feed nutes to it (although coco/peat is organic and does breakdown over time and holds some nutes and releases some). Its just holding water/nutes and letting the roots uptake it. Soil you are feeding the soil and the soil is feeding the plants. Not to say you cant treat coco/peat like soil. Its a pretty universal medium.

You are growing in soil. Couple of things. 6.0 is low for soil. Testing your runoff is a waste of time. You should not be giving nutes every feed to soil unless you have them crazy low on the feed. Feed, water, feed, water or feed, water, water, water ect.

 

[bibiking]

Keep it Simple Stupid

what a wonderful advice. the reason I moved to Hydro is LOOKS simple, but after years I understand it isn't.
the guys in the Hydro shops convince you it is an easy task, and it is impossible to know that they are wrong.

I will move to soil, of course. can I just start feeding my plant organic nutes already? I thought giving it warm casting. I ask because it is 1 month old which lived only on chemical nutes until today.

Thank you VERY MUCH :)

 

[Organikz]

oh. one last thing. i'm kinda like you when i came on here i was a lost damn sheep. @Ecompost @Organikz and some others that aren't even here anymore lead me towards growing organically.

i can honestly say i would've given up and stopped if it wasn't for them, now it's becoming a genuine hobby. it's the easiest way to grow by far, if you do it right it's probably the cheapest way to grow also, but people who mix their own salt based nutrients may disagree and they might be right!

best of luck

All you need is water and aloe...

 

[elcolombiano]

All you need is water and aloe...View attachment 856725

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[Mr Bee]

Forgive me if it's already been said as I didn't read all the posts but the biggest difference between coco and soil is the watering.in soil you don't keep it constantly wet like in coco.you need to let the soil dry out a good bit between waterings.this will encourage healthy root growth and you know what they say about healthy roots-healthy roots = bigger fruits. Unless your doing big pots of living soil, but for just bought soil in a couple o gallon pots u need to get a good wet/dry cycle going

 

[Mr Bee]

View attachment 854991
Hempy pots

I love those hempy pots with coco or some kinda soilless medium with drippers.they yield shit hot in them.

 

[cemchris]

Keep it Simple Stupid

what a wonderful advice. the reason I moved to Hydro is LOOKS simple, but after years I understand it isn't.
the guys in the Hydro shops convince you it is an easy task, and it is impossible to know that they are wrong.

I will move to soil, of course. can I just start feeding my plant organic nutes already? I thought giving it warm casting. I ask because it is 1 month old which lived only on chemical nutes until today.

Thank you VERY MUCH :)

Again it can be simple. There is just a lot more thing that can go wrong with a crop that you don't have to deal with soil. Hydro is super simple until you run into problems. That is were they hyrdo shops usually get you and you walk out with 5 miracle cures in a bottle. The hydro store guys will make it out like you need 2 grand of equipment when you really don't. I think i had a solid year on flood tables till I actually ran into a stumper of a problem I had trouble dealing with when I started out. You might not ever run into a problem if you keep it on the KISS side. using 8 bottles of nutes and small rezs is where you will start getting into problem territory and being new its hard to know how to deal with them. My suggestion is always look to big ag hydro's approach and dont listen to the guys at the hydro shop. Think of them as car salesmen.

 

[PharmHand]

Thank you
I do have soil which is not fertilized. it is 33%coco, 33%perlite, 33%soil
I don't have more information, but it say soil

I run a very similar mix. 1:1:1 coco/ffof/grow stones. A lot of guys do, it works well. I feed every day to 10-15% runoff ph 6-6.3 5-900ppm 1-1.8ec. How ya likin it thus far?

 

[Enforcer]

I run a very similar mix. 1:1:1 coco/ffof/grow stones. A lot of guys do, it works well. I feed every day to 10-15% runoff ph 6-6.3 5-900ppm 1-1.8ec. How ya likin it thus far?

Why are you adding ffof if you are feeding daily? I’m just trying to understand what the benefit is.

 

[Smoking Gun]

Ok, so it seems this thread needs a bit of science to explain. Soil, coco, and hydro are all completely separate entities that each have their own requirements, advantages and disadvantages.

Soil, this is where I tell most people to start their growing journey. Soil is what I consider the most forgiving growing medium. This is due to the cation exchange capacity (CEC) of soil. Cations are positively charged molecules, in this case the cations are found naturally within the soil and in any additional nutrients we apply. The positively charged cations bind with negatively charged particles in the soil. As particles move through the soil they interact with the other molecules making up the soil and will react by either releasing the cation or binding with a new cation making nutrients available or binding them up in the soil to be released later. Ultimately this means that nutrients will only be available to your plants as the soils sees fit. This is determined by the make-up of the soil; soils with more clay or organic (carbon based) material will typically have a higher CEC and release nutrients slower than soils high in minerals.

Within soils there is much more biological activity, particularly in soils with proper amounts of organic material. This biological activity also has a major effect upon how and when certain nutrients are released or bound. In soils with higher amounts of organic material nutrient toxicity is less common because there are a lot of negatively charged particles to bind the actions for later release. This is a natural buffer and why even mediocre soil grows will produce a decent harvest. The organic matter of the soil also breaks down over time naturally releasing nutrients in forms available to the plants. This is why in proper healthy organic soil little to no outside nutrients are needed.

Most potting soils have a sphagnum base then organic materials are added to the mix. Technically the sphagnum is inert, but it has a CEC very similar to proper mineral based soil. This is often why folks growing in Pro-Mix or other peat growing mediums typically call themselves soil gardeners; though in actuallity it is not truly soil.

Coco coir is simply the husks of coconuts that have been shredded up. While an organic product it is by no means soil. It does not have the make-up of soil nor does it have a CEC similar to soil. There is little to no organic material that is going to break down and provide food to plants in coco. Given the source for coco coir the medium often has high levels of salt naturally in the medium which is why it is typically recommended to wash the coco before use. This is another departure from how plants are grown in soil.

While considered inert coco does have a tendency to lock up available calcium and often can release too much potassium. This is why many nutrient companies have made coco specific nutrients that often have additional calcium and lower levels of K. The lower CEC of coco compared to soil also means that nutrients have to be applied regularly to coco to maintain plant health because most of what isn't immediately used by the plants will come out in the run-off. However this does not mean salts won't build up in the medium, they will. And allowing a flush period before harvest is never a bad idea.

Coco also holds more air than soil. This allows the coco to dry at a quicker rate making it possible to apply water and nutrients more regularly. It also allows for rapid growth of the root zone.

The lower CEC and higher levels of root zone air make coco growing more akin to hydroponics rather than soil growing. This is why we use a more acidic nutrient feed in coco than we do in soil, it keeps the nutrients at a pH where a broader spectrum of elements are available to the plants.

Hydroponic mediums, if any are used at all have a very low CEC making nutrients almost completely available to plants. This is good because we can give our plants as much or as little nutrients as they need to grow and thrive. When all things are in balance hydroponically grown plants will grow faster and healthier because they are getting all available nutrients, not just what is made available by the medium. Often the medium in hydro systems is there only to anchor plants, not provide the roots with any nutrients, and the water is the only source of nutrients for the plants; there is no buffer for nutrients.

This can also be a drawback; if the nutrient solution has too many nutrients it will damage the plants, we see nutrient burn. While the plants may recover the damage has been done and yields will likely suffer. On the other hand if there are not enough nutrients the plants will also be stunted and they will not grow to their greatest potential. This is why the EC (or PPM or TDS), pH and temperature become so vital in hydroponic systems, these are the factors that determine nutrient availability.

With hydro we see changes rapidly and therefore must continuously be monitoring our systems. When we see changes we must deal with them immediately because they can often have drastic effects on our plants health quickly. Issues like root rot also tend to be more prevalent and more damaging in hydro because there are no buffers to protect the plants.

Hopefully this offers some insight into the differences in each style of grow and why none is exactly like the other.

 

[Enforcer]

Ok, so it seems this thread needs a bit of science to explain. Soil, coco, and hydro are all completely separate entities that each have their own requirements, advantages and disadvantages.

Soil, this is where I tell most people to start their growing journey. Soil is what I consider the most forgiving growing medium. This is due to the cation exchange capacity (CEC) of soil. Cations are positively charged molecules, in this case the cations are found naturally within the soil and in any additional nutrients we apply. The positively charged cations bind with negatively charged particles in the soil. As particles move through the soil they interact with the other molecules making up the soil and will react by either releasing the cation or binding with a new cation making nutrients available or binding them up in the soil to be released later. Ultimately this means that nutrients will only be available to your plants as the soils sees fit. This is determined by the make-up of the soil; soils with more clay or organic (carbon based) material will typically have a higher CEC and release nutrients slower than soils high in minerals.

Within soils there is much more biological activity, particularly in soils with proper amounts of organic material. This biological activity also has a major effect upon how and when certain nutrients are released or bound. In soils with higher amounts of organic material nutrient toxicity is less common because there are a lot of negatively charged particles to bind the actions for later release. This is a natural buffer and why even mediocre soil grows will produce a decent harvest. The organic matter of the soil also breaks down over time naturally releasing nutrients in forms available to the plants. This is why in proper healthy organic soil little to no outside nutrients are needed.

Most potting soils have a sphagnum base then organic materials are added to the mix. Technically the sphagnum is inert, but it has a CEC very similar to proper mineral based soil. This is often why folks growing in Pro-Mix or other peat growing mediums typically call themselves soil gardeners; though in actuallity it is not truly soil.

Coco coir is simply the husks of coconuts that have been shredded up. While an organic product it is by no means soil. It does not have the make-up of soil nor does it have a CEC similar to soil. There is little to no organic material that is going to break down and provide food to plants in coco. Given the source for coco coir the medium often has high levels of salt naturally in the medium which is why it is typically recommended to wash the coco before use. This is another departure from how plants are grown in soil.

While considered inert coco does have a tendency to lock up available calcium and often can release too much potassium. This is why many nutrient companies have made coco specific nutrients that often have additional calcium and lower levels of K. The lower CEC of coco compared to soil also means that nutrients have to be applied regularly to coco to maintain plant health because most of what isn't immediately used by the plants will come out in the run-off. However this does not mean salts won't build up in the medium, they will. And allowing a flush period before harvest is never a bad idea.

Coco also holds more air than soil. This allows the coco to dry at a quicker rate making it possible to apply water and nutrients more regularly. It also allows for rapid growth of the root zone.

The lower CEC and higher levels of root zone air make coco growing more akin to hydroponics rather than soil growing. This is why we use a more acidic nutrient feed in coco than we do in soil, it keeps the nutrients at a pH where a broader spectrum of elements are available to the plants.

Hydroponic mediums, if any are used at all have a very low CEC making nutrients almost completely available to plants. This is good because we can give our plants as much or as little nutrients as they need to grow and thrive. When all things are in balance hydroponically grown plants will grow faster and healthier because they are getting all available nutrients, not just what is made available by the medium. Often the medium in hydro systems is there only to anchor plants, not provide the roots with any nutrients, and the water is the only source of nutrients for the plants; there is no buffer for nutrients.

This can also be a drawback; if the nutrient solution has too many nutrients it will damage the plants, we see nutrient burn. While the plants may recover the damage has been done and yields will likely suffer. On the other hand if there are not enough nutrients the plants will also be stunted and they will not grow to their greatest potential. This is why the EC (or PPM or TDS), pH and temperature become so vital in hydroponic systems, these are the factors that determine nutrient availability.

With hydro we see changes rapidly and therefore must continuously be monitoring our systems. When we see changes we must deal with them immediately because they can often have drastic effects on our plants health quickly. Issues like root rot also tend to be more prevalent and more damaging in hydro because there are no buffers to protect the plants.

Hopefully this offers some insight into the differences in each style of grow and why none is exactly like the other.

All excellent points and right on target. Thanks for taking the time to type this all out.

 

[PharmHand]

Why are you adding ffof if you are feeding daily? I’m just trying to understand what the benefit is.

Just trying to add some stability as to what’s available nutrient-wise in large containers of coco as it dries-which is potentially for a couple few days in the early weeks of flowering for me. @Smoking Gun explained it far better than I could, thanks chief.

I consider myself fortunate and extremely grateful to be in a situation where I can test different mixes very frequently. I originally tried this on the recommendation of a friend and have since tweaked it to 2:1:1 coco/ffof/GS. I also tried 1:1:1 coco/promix/perlite 2:1:1 coco/sunshine4/perlite but also just coco/gs 70/30. A lot of guys in MI run similar mixes w big pots n low plant counts.

Believe it or not part of my reasoning behind the addition of peat was to slow down the amount of post flip vegetative growth, which peat definitely does( vs coco alone). Still trying different things but i gotta say the 1:1:1 is super easy and makes some very healthy looking plants

 

[Jimster]

I use Promix, which is basically vermiculite (or peat moss type of stuff) and perlite. I sometimes add compost/cow manure at 25%. I add some wood ashes to the Promix, which provides both micro and macro nutrients, and 20-20-20 nutrients every 10-14 days. I water 1-1.5 gallons a day or as needed (much less water during first few weeks). I have never had any problems with nutrient lock, toxicity or deficiency. Promix is considered "soilless", only because it doesn't have dirt in it. You have to use fertilizer with it, but I don't need to use nearly as much as some growers seem to. It's simple, dependable, and has worked for over 30 years without any problems. My costs for a typical grow totals about $75, not including electricity or costs to run the lights. It's simple. KISS..didn't someone already mention that? :cool:
Keep up the good work!