kolah said:

I been around, seen alot and done alot, and I never saw a fresh graduate step into a work place and get er' done. And yeah they always want top dollar just because their name is printed on a slab of paper in Old English and slapped into a fancy fucking frame. Whoop-dee-doo.

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That's absolutely right, but in terms of what you said about entitlement--It doesn't really work that way in research. There is a pecking order. Its understood, as a chemist and I would assume physicist, that coming out of college you are basically a babe in the woods and know a grand total of nothing.

I've had to relearn the "proper" way to do things (this addition, that extraction, keep a lab notebook, etc.) at least 4 times now at different work places. It's just a part of the industry, everywhere has its own standards and practices--so it's understood that when you get hired you won't know shit because it's THEIR shit you have to know.

A chemistry degree buys you a guy/gal who isn't as likely to kill themselves with a dangerous reagent as the next guy--which makes them more insurable and helps the bottom line. It buys you a dude who is likely to be able to dilute something for you and know about volume/mass/atomic/etc conversions so that they can get stoichiometry right. Beyond that it doesn't get you much that you can *reliably* get everytime you sign on a bachelor of chemistry.

The masters buys you a bit more. It's someone who has gone through the medical literature and understands a good deal of it. Someone who has a fairly advanced knowledge of various concepts in chemistry. At this level the courses become extremely cumulative and begin to overlap on each other, so getting a C in the course before it, or learning something just to forget it doesn't really work. If its a thesis based program, most are, it's a person who has discovered something novel in the field--a tested product.

The pay spread between the two really isn't that large, but the security is much better with a masters

Squiggs, how is the current job market in the chemistry fields these days? I'd guess the Big Pharma folks are always looking for new workers or is it saturated? Any other openings? How about getting grants for research? Research grants sounds like it could be pretty cool.

I would think getting a teaching gig in a college (esp with a Masters) would be kickass. Killer pay, good pensions and easy work. Hot young chickies too. Some of the teachers at my college were making 6 figure incomes and teaching only 1 or 2 classes.

Education is the Key to Success... But It comes in many forms and A College Degree is Only one of the many...

So why don't you start out as a lab assistant and work your way up rather that wasting time on your career trying to get into something you are not qualified for. Someone has been there and done that. I by no means is the smartest guy in my field after 4o years and you certainly are not as an apprentice. How do you justify working in a non related field going no where when you could be furthering your career by seeking out your degrees?
By the way your posts are to superfluous, I find them boring and don't read them.
Wow, I spelled superfluous right without spell check. lol

At 27...I doubt he has any help from his parents with the costs of his education, and IMO he is doing the smart thing...especially in this economy... by working/paying as he goes rather than getting completely behind the curve debt wise. Many of his peers are snagging loans without thinking how hard it will be to pay it all back. Many don't think they will ever >have to< pay it back. Yeah...sure thing.
FWIW pute...I got a huge glimpse into the world/way the world of science-related jobs goes down via my late son's involvement in Geo/Astrophysics (and with nerds in general..LOL) and I think squiggs has a good idea how it all plays out.
It's a far different world than the "learn as you go" blue collar "management" jobs we were involved in....without a doubt.

sky high said:

At 27...I doubt he has any help from his parents with the costs of his education, and IMO he is doing the smart thing...especially in this economy... by working/paying as he goes rather than getting completely behind the curve debt wise. Many of his peers are snagging loans without thinking how hard it will be to pay it all back. Many don't think they will ever >have to< pay it back. Yeah...sure thing.
FWIW pute...I got a huge glimpse into the world/way the world of science-related jobs goes down via my late son's involvement in Geo/Astrophysics (and with nerds in general..LOL) and I think squiggs has a good idea how it all plays out.
It's a far different world than the "learn as you go" blue collar "management" jobs we were involved in....without a doubt.

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ok, give him that but he rants and talks down to his elders. As a matter of fact it seem like he targets us. Don't know how his father raised him but he has no respect so none given. He will end up poor and bitter.

putembk said:

Squig, you are the definition of gen x, to quote you, and frankly what I have said in the past " I don't have a job that justifies my degree". You are 27 years old and claim to be some kind of wizard, and don't have a job working yourself to the top????????? Yep, you want to start out at 6 figures and a management position. Well I guess your short stent here in management pretty much sums up the facts. My advise to you is go and get a job and if you are so good at what you do the cream will rise to the top. Even cream needs a little time to separate itself from the "as you think" INFERIOR.

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I'm no wizard and I'd challenge you to show me where I ever said I was one. I'm a guy who knows more about a helpful thing than most people, so I'm happy to help them with that in so far as my knowledge can take us.

I have no intention of starting out at 6 figures--I'd be happy to start at 30 and I'd be totally stoked if I found a job making 40K out of the gate. I do appreciate the advice, but seeing as I'm the person who is going to be beholden to the job market once it's my only savior and possibility for getting out of debt--I'm going to go ahead and stick to the plan I've carefully and thoughtfully laid out for myself drawing upon the knowledge that I have about how things work in this industry and what the job market looks like.

Was I an asshole when I was a mod? Yes. I yelled at a dude I shouldn't have yelled at and overreacted, case closed. I lost my mod status. Proud of it? Nope. Over it? Yep. I felt attacked and more importantly felt a buddy was being attacked--but I forgot two cardinal rules:

1. Never defend a person who can defend themselves.

2. Never feed those who only want to derail you. Smile, nod, and move on--you've got 7 billion people to choose from, why stop here (especially on the goddamn internet)?

It's my own fault, and I paid the price.

If you want to make assumptions, that's your prerogative--but they are wrong if it pleases you to know as much.

I never said I was "so good at what I do".

What I do is discover new things, that's the bill of a scientist. I'm only good at knowing stuff that has already been discovered. I've done some of my own research but comparing my experience to a person who's been in industry a year working 40-50hrs a week is comparing apples to oranges.

As rock solid as "the cream rises to the top" is as advice, I'm forced to stick with what my best chances for a steady living are according to what every chemistry professional I've spoken with has advised me to do.

Also, let me be clear. I don't talk down to elders, EVER. If we meet in person you can expect I'd probably call you sir and be on top of my pleases and thank yous--I was raised this way.

I talk down to people of nondescript age being nasty to me on the internet. In many instances finding out about a person's age here has caused me to tone down the way I address them. I'd say I've done a great job of that for at least 6 months now.

Sometimes, and indeed including the time where I lost my mod status, I started the nastiness--and that's on me. Overall, though, I'm just replying (stupidly, in the past) to people who were essentially talking shit about me simply because they don't like that I type a shitload really fast and post it.

putembk said:

Good post squig. I actually agree with most of what you said. Just one exception. You said "You flushed it down the drain". Meaning the country. I totally disagree with that. The Boomers and Gen X'ers didn't do that, our leaders ran the country in the ground. I was just living life and doing the best I could. Got madder and madder every day watching the direction was headed. Now your generation has a mess and it's getting worse. I feel sorry for the condition you are inheriting but put the blame where it belongs.

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Your leaders were elected by you. This is the problem I have most with both my generation (whatever 1985 is considered) and the previous generation(s)...apparently both think the entire political spectrum will operate perfectly if nobody pays attention or votes. Then they stand by and bitch about bills being considered, or passed, and items they have no fucking clue about because they sit there watching fox news or msnbc for a half hour a day and take Bill O'Reilly or Rachel Maddows opinions as fucking fact. The political situation in this country can be blamed on one thing and one thing only, not politicians, but the 2/3 of the country that doesn't take the fucking time to educate themselves on politics or vote. This is why the unions, social security, health care, medicare, roads and every other thing is fucked beyond belief. I'm with Squiggs, but our generation has put in a shitty first half thus far too. Why the fuck did people stop talking politics at the dinner table? Our system cannot work for you if you don't work for it. If you don't put in the effort, you deserve to be left enslaved to corporations, billionaires, and anyone else that "takes advantage" of the system.

Dangit, and all this time I thought it was the shapeshifters that fuqd errthang up! If not the shapshifters fault, I will blame scientology.....dam aliens

jfiz.....you simply nailed it. Folks are disgruntled and don't trust (anyone) . If they do vote it's specifically to vote against tax increases. Not surprisingly, after voting down ALL tax increases for years and years and watching the infrastructure take a severe hit....they then wonder WHY things are fucked up.

But hey....it's not "THEIR" problem....'cus they didn't vote for ANY of it :rolleyes:

squiggly said:

They left out the part where education cost baby boomers and TGGers about $20,000 TOTAL in 2013 dollars. Now you can expect to pay about 5-6 times that much for a Bachelors degree.
Double or triple that for an advanced degree.
Of course when it's 5 times as expensive to educate yourself your expectations are going to be 5 times as high.
Also worth mentioning is that there was this thing we used to have in America called the manufacturing sector.
Baby Boomers had these things because THEIR parents and predecessors invested into their children's and descendant's futures. THEY took excellent care of the manufacturing sector and jobs in this country.
Baby boomers decided they were too good for this and selfishly refused to make those investments or to show that same care and poise.
We have inherited a total shit show, and Baby Boomers have the audacity to talk about how shit was "in their day".
In your day you inherited an economy and a country that hadn't been shit all over and shaken upside down by your predecessors rampant idiocy and greed.

Pat yourselves on the back for that if you'd like, but I personally find the gall your generation has to be the first to leave less for your children than was left to you and then to actually bitch about how we're turning out disturbing to say the least.
The greatest generation wasn't just the greatest generation they were the LAST great generation.

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Well aren't your parents Baby Boomers, great American greed put before pride.......remember we
are no longer an industrial nation, we are now basically a service industry. We produce very little, check
the labels on the clothes, kitchen products etc.... We have outsourced our lives to the third world......while we fight for democracy all over the world spending BILLIONS OF U.S. DOLLARS
OVERSEAS, yet we borrow money from the the largest Communist Nation "CHINA"
If you think it's bad now ....... Grab you C@(KS , Were Going To A Ball ... My apology to the "GENERATION ME" people ..... the future of America .....

The Big Illusion: Voting.

The Bigger Illusion: Apathy

Apathy is no illusion. We all bear responsibility for where we find ourselves, IMO.

Kolah, sorry the AZ thing didn't work out, but I'm glad you were able to get the hell outta Dodge. Too often I know of people who go into a new gig and learn only too late what a bad deal it is, only to be unable to extricate themselves.

Complain, complain, complain... It's still business as usual (Government)<<< Why does that word look so BIG compared to the rest? So you think blaming A previous generation for the spending they did when the Deficit / Spending has DOUBLED in the last four years... that of All Other Presidents combined is productive and considered as Pro Activism and An "Example of Involvement" of the "Y" generation??? Wait and See what "You" left behind for your children...

Double the Spending!!! So where is the unions, social security, health care, medicare, roads and every other thing... jfizzle2cmu mentions above Hmmm? Everyone knows the answer to that, All Failing Miserably...

Seamaiden said:

We all bear responsibility for where we find ourselves, IMO.

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True dat. Such is why...other than personal tragedies we couldn't control, we like where we find ourselves and we are "on plan"....just as we have been for over 30 years. Know what I'm sayin'?

SoCal 420 said:

Complain, complain, complain... It's still business as usual (Government)<<< Why does that word look so BIG compared to the rest? So you think blaming A previous generation for the spending they did when the Deficit / Spending has DOUBLED in the last four years... that of All Other Presidents combined is productive and considered as Pro Activism and An "Example of Involvement" of the "Y" generation??? Wait and See what "You" left behind for your children...

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The thing is, the haves in the boomer generation are probably going to be ok as long as they remain diligent which is what made them a member of the haves in the first place. However I still take threads such as this very personal I guess because I love our country and what it once stood for. I just don't understand the SPENDING that the current administration is doing. Sorry I don't think you can spend your way out of a recession....personally they might think about saving more and using the taxpayers dollars more efficiently. Somehow I just don't get it when younger generations don't understand the debt that is being accumulated and that it's going to have to be paid back.
I totally agree we need health care reform but the Affordable Health Care Act is simply something we can't afford. Obama promised that if you wanted to keep your current health care provider you could. He also said that premiums wouldn't go up. Well, my premiums have gone up and I know several that have had their health care canceled with the implementation of Obama care. In essence He LIED to us. God help the future generations.

Banks and Credit Card Companies figured it out... That's why the "Y's" are having A rough time and it's going to get worse... The days of Living off credit cards and home loans for Housing that Far Exceed your income are OVER. The housing market Crash due to loans to the under qualified and the personal responsibility of the private sector was A big driver in the Housing Bubble that led to manipulation / corruption of the market and where we are in the first place... The Fed steps in and prints $30 Billion per Mo. (Google Quantitative Easing for those that are unaware) and buys up bonds left and right to float the "Market" and Government spends @ A Never Before "Obscene" Rate and people "Believe" that the current Admin. is Making Progress in Unemployment and Job Creation??? If the "Lie" that people believe wasn't so "Sickening" it would be Laughable...

The rich get richer until the poor get educated