YEEESSSSS!!!! prop 19 FAILS!!!

ent · Nov 3, 2010

~xO Kakalak Ox~ said:
I also said if I were in your shoes I would feel the same way. Nothing wrong with keeping yourself in business. Can you give me another reason why you personally were against it?

Well firstly I'm a libertarian. So anything that increases taxation and regulation is against my values to begin with.

Secondly- I'm for a smaller government, less control, less regulation. I believed that we currently have too much legislation and that any bill, measure, prop that would add additional penal codes or health and safety codes is a bad thing. The proper way to deal with "the war on drugs" is the repeal penal and H&S codes, not add another layer on top of them. P19 would have created a new tax code, given your city code enforcement more power to come into your home, would not have decreased the amount of people in jail and with additional penal codes and tax codes I believe the local governments would "capone" you and get you for not having a tax stamp on your herb, or pass city ordinances to levy enormous fines, etc.

Thirdly- I liked the part about possession up to an ounce and cultivation in a 5x5 for the end users. But I do not like that it creates a commercial cannabis market. I think that was actually the motivation behind the whole thing. Throw the end user a bone so one guy and his crew up in Oakland can be poised to run all four of their 100,000 square foot warehouses to take over the cannabis market. That's why that one guy dropped $1.5 million of his own cash- because P19 was a business proposal.

If it was about legalization or the end users it wouldn't have been called the "Tax Regulate and Control Act".

~xO Kakalak Ox~ · Nov 3, 2010

ent said:
Well firstly I'm a libertarian. So anything that increases taxation and regulation is against my values to begin with.

Secondly- I'm for a smaller government, less control, less regulation. I believed that we currently have too much legislation and that any bill, measure, prop that would add additional penal codes or health and safety codes is a bad thing. The proper way to deal with "the war on drugs" is the repeal penal and H&S codes, not add another layer on top of them. P19 would have created a new tax code, given your city code enforcement more power to come into your home, would not have decreased the amount of people in jail and with additional penal codes and tax codes I believe the local governments would "capone" you and get you for not having a tax stamp on your herb, or pass city ordinances to levy enormous fines, etc.

Thirdly- I liked the part about possession up to an ounce and cultivation in a 5x5 for the end users. But I do not like that it creates a commercial cannabis market. I think that was actually the motivation behind the whole thing. Throw the end user a bone so one guy and his crew up in Oakland can be poised to run all four of their 100,000 square foot warehouses to take over the cannabis market. That's why that one guy dropped $1.5 million of his own cash- because P19 was a business proposal.

If it was about legalization or the end users it wouldn't have been called the "Tax Regulate and Control Act".

Thanks for giving a legit answer. That is really what I was looking for from the start. You all say non- californians don't know, well you are right we don't. Thanks for helping me understand your feelings and not just calling me childish and dumb.

motherlode · Nov 3, 2010

Seamaiden said:
Ok, now I have to know which site.

I just found a really cool interactive map on the results in California.

Actually... that's not true. It was coastal counties (the counties with huge populations, the counties that were responsible for Jerry Brown being elected) that voted for it. See the interactive map I've linked above.

You are WELCOME! :D

word SM - I was quoting a story I read on KCBS (I think it was that site)

the map is kewl

ent · Nov 3, 2010

~xO Kakalak Ox~ said:
Thanks for giving a legit answer. That is really what I was looking for from the start. You all say non- californians don't know, well you are right we don't. Thanks for helping me understand your feelings and not just calling me childish and dumb.

I always feel like i'm on the defensive. I have to defend "why" i feel it's bad. One of the reasons I feel a lot of cannabis smokers were voting yes was because of the many misconceptions on p19. Not just the "if CA passes it the rest of the world is watching" argument, but many others.

Like the amount of people kept out of jail. P19 allows for possession up to an ounce. Currently possession up to an ounce is a citable offense, less than a speeding ticket. So you don't go to jail. There isn't much of a demographic that will be kept out of jail by P19 and since it creates new tax codes, gives cities the power to create their own ordinances, etc- I feel it has the opportunity to put additional people in jail.

Another one is that if P19 passes the law enforcement will no longer have probable cause for 4th amendment s&s. That is also false. It is written so that there are limits and taxes (and tax stamps if your city chooses) so the law enforcement can still search to ensure you are within the legal limits.

Another is where the money from p19 goes. Many believe the money will go to the state to help with the budget. But that is also false. From the prop

(a) Any ordinance, regulation or other act adopted pursuant to section 11301 may include imposition of appropriate general, special or excise, transfer or transaction taxes, benefit assessments, or fees, on any activity authorized pursuant to such enactment, in order to permit the local government to raise revenue, or to recoup any direct or indirect costs associated with the authorized activity, or the permitting or licensing scheme, including without limitation: administration; applications and issuance of licenses or permits; inspection of licensed premises and other enforcement of ordinances adopted under section 11301, including enforcement against unauthorized activities.

Emphasis mine.

So let's flip the tables a bit. Can you give me bullet points as to why you voted for prop 19? I'll try to refute them.

motherlode · Nov 3, 2010

well put ent - you have more patience then me

after months and months of debating all this shit here its over now and I really dont feel the need to explain it again

thank god it didnt pass - imagine how many retards would be flocking here

Seamaiden · Nov 3, 2010

He couldn't, ent, he's in NC, all he has is his opinion.

I voted against it, and it was the specific calls for imprisonment (authorizes criminal penalties, posted in another thread I believe) periods that where why I voted against it, well, that was the biggest reason. The issue of taxation rests upon a municipality even allowing the sales in the first place, and if you search my threads you'll understand my problems in that arena (going to see an attorney tomorrow about all of it, in fact).

Then, it appeared as though there was too much that could be left up to court interpretation, which leaves us AGAIN in a position that feels so very similar as a 215 patient--we aren't being afforded any more "rights" than those which we can (and this is key) AFFORD TO ASSERT. And that is the big rub right there--we are only afforded the right to use the medical use defense, and even that can be struck down by a jurist should he or she so please!

This leads me to my rant about how much it costs to assert your rights and the fact that it is a matter of fact in this country that very often it is only those who can afford to defend themselves who do. Everyone else takes a plea. That means that there is justice *only for the rich*.

That, my dear Friends and Fellow Farmers, is a problem.

I get tomorrow's consultation for free, but I have no idea what this attorney's retainer is going to be, whether or not I like him, whether or not he really knows his stuff. But for a good attorney in this type of field, you're going to have to count on $5,000-$10,000 retainer. If I'm lucky, I'll get away with $1,500 to keep him in my back pocket (this is one of those areas in which it's far better to be a little proactive than reactive, if you can dig).

Hoo, boy, OFF I went, eh?

UrbanGorilla · Nov 3, 2010

~xO Kakalak Ox~ said:
I'm still confused as to how being able to be locked up for a plant and your rights taken away is good in any way unless you are worried about the illegal money you are currently making.

illegal money? you must be an out of stater not belonging to a co op or have a medicinal prescription. It's legal to grow and supply dispenceries with medicine for other patients last i knew.

~xO Kakalak Ox~ · Nov 3, 2010

UrbanGorilla said:
illegal money? you must be an out of stater not belonging to a co op or have a medicinal prescription. It's legal to grow and supply dispenceries with medicine for other patients last i knew.

I didn't know everyone who grows in Cali was legal sorry.

Seamaiden · Nov 3, 2010

~xO Kakalak Ox~ said:
I didn't know everyone who grows in Cali was legal sorry.

If you speak with certain LE, they'll tell you that, technically, you're still not legal (if you hold a recommendation, no such thing as a prescription for cannabis here, just a rec). You are only afforded the right to use medical use as a defense.

What does that imply to you?

~xO Kakalak Ox~ · Nov 3, 2010

Have you read the NC bill HB1380? Is it a good one? I don't speak legalese.

COCOLOCO · Nov 3, 2010

YEA!!!!!!!! Its a beatiful day!

CelticEBE · Nov 3, 2010

~xO Kakalak Ox~ said:
Thanks for giving a legit answer. That is really what I was looking for from the start. You all say non- californians don't know, well you are right we don't. Thanks for helping me understand your feelings and not just calling me childish and dumb.

From the start Seamaiden told you to check out her posts. Which all state VERY good information about Prop 19.

For me it was having my livelihood put at risk. As you stated if your job was put at risk by a Monster Corporation you would be upset as well.

I could cite many reason why I was against Prop 19. Here's a big one. I have friends who are MMJ patients. They have kids. Under Prop 19 they would not be able to use their medicine at home if there kids where home.

This was never about LEGALIZATION. It was about power, corruption, and wanting to control a market.

Out of staters who supported this Prop were uninformed. The heard LEGALIZATION and got all googly eyed. We passed 215 14 years ago. 14 YEARS AGO!!! Since then 13 states have joined the MMJ bandwagon. What makes any of you think that if Prop 19 had passed your state would come on board with it?

ACT LOCALLY! THINK GLOBALLY!

Get your state on board with MMJ! Get every single state ok with MMJ and the Feds have to duck out. They also have to issue a Federal Tax Stamp.

Baby steps....and good ones. I'm all for true LEGALIZATION.....but not controlled prohibitions like 19.

I'm actually a big proponent of taxation and regulation of the "MMJ Industry". IMHO Prop 215 made MJ a medicine. When you go to Walgreens to pick up your medicine are you not taxed on it? Is Walgreens allowed to profit from that sale? Is the company making the medicine allowed to profit? I still don't get why we aren't allowed to and I am more than willing to pay taxes on those profits.

Regardless.....it failed. We are safe.....for now.

~xO Kakalak Ox~ · Nov 3, 2010

CelticEBE said:
From the start Seamaiden told you to check out her posts. Which all state VERY good information about Prop 19.

For me it was having my livelihood put at risk. As you stated if your job was put at risk by a Monster Corporation you would be upset as well.

I could cite many reason why I was against Prop 19. Here's a big one. I have friends who are MMJ patients. They have kids. Under Prop 19 they would not be able to use their medicine at home if there kids where home.

This was never about LEGALIZATION. It was about power, corruption, and wanting to control a market.

Out of staters who supported this Prop were uninformed. The heard LEGALIZATION and got all googly eyed. We passed 215 14 years ago. 14 YEARS AGO!!! Since then 13 states have joined the MMJ bandwagon. What makes any of you think that if Prop 19 had passed your state would come on board with it?

ACT LOCALLY! THINK GLOBALLY!

Get your state on board with MMJ! Get every single state ok with MMJ and the Feds have to duck out. They also have to issue a Federal Tax Stamp.

Baby steps....and good ones. I'm all for true LEGALIZATION.....but not controlled prohibitions like 19.

I'm actually a big proponent of taxation and regulation of the "MMJ Industry". IMHO Prop 215 made MJ a medicine. When you go to Walgreens to pick up your medicine are you not taxed on it? Is Walgreens allowed to profit from that sale? Is the company making the medicine allowed to profit? I still don't get why we aren't allowed to and I am more than willing to pay taxes on those profits.

Regardless.....it failed. We are safe.....for now.

I get it :bong2:

motherlode · Nov 3, 2010

looks like harris won by about 20 thousand votes

OldSchool · Nov 3, 2010

Hey, OX KAKALAK OX,
Did U flip to no side?? UR my hero man !

WomBat · Nov 3, 2010

ent said:
Thirdly- I liked the part about possession up to an ounce and cultivation in a 5x5 for the end users. But I do not like that it creates a commercial cannabis market. I think that was actually the motivation behind the whole thing. Throw the end user a bone so one guy and his crew up in Oakland can be poised to run all four of their 100,000 square foot warehouses to take over the cannabis market. That's why that one guy dropped $1.5 million of his own cash- because P19 was a business proposal.

I Live in Co and have been following this fairly closely i Agree with this statement completely the moment i herd "HE" was involved i knew it was bad also i would think that a "legalization" law would just encourage DEA to step in and not only stop rec. use but med use too now in my mind that is tragic because i know at least 100 people in Co whos life would be horrible with out the med use of cannabis and if i can say that living in Co im sure every cali resident on this site knows 100 of the same people who would lose there medicine that helps them with there right to live now i am sorry if i am uneducated about some of this but i do know that this site has majority of its members being med users this is why i chose to use this site for my education as opposed to others site so i feel like this site has more "educated" user about the laws so i feel like it is almost cali speaking here sorry for rambling i kinda lose track some times i hope i got my point across =] and did not offend anyone or piss them off but i do fell like any regulation and taxation is bad because as state above by other posts it is a about making money not the benefit of the citizens of cali

MSL Foundation · Nov 3, 2010

I will get into it more later but it boils down to Prop19 actually made it so people would be going to jail.

Just like Celtic said it is not about legalization at all...They just dressed it up to look like legalization, So much so it has MJ's own fighting against each other.

MSL

~xO Kakalak Ox~ · Nov 3, 2010

Aligee · Nov 3, 2010

Rabbi said:
I'll say $5400 since you must have it since your a big baller with a pound. You sure could liquidate it? Correct?

And a little side action I got $500 says he never puts up, hopefully this will get him banned and therefor STFU

Whats up RC! and thanks to everyone for the reputation boost for schooling this youngster.

Does't seem like you read either, or try to enlighten yourself. :wondering:thinking

dang you baller you LOL na just bsing witcha lol!!!wsup bro !!!

Rabbi · Nov 3, 2010

Just Fact checkin....Aligee, how you bro..... Still hanging in there in the Esno? Sound harsh down your way with that shooting? We gotta get you up for our harvest party?

YEEESSSSS!!!! prop 19 FAILS!!!

YEEESSSSS!!!! prop 19 FAILS!!!

ent

~xO Kakalak Ox~

Calyx Bros. Seed Co.

motherlode

@Rolln_J

ent

motherlode

@Rolln_J

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

UrbanGorilla

~xO Kakalak Ox~

Calyx Bros. Seed Co.

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

~xO Kakalak Ox~

Calyx Bros. Seed Co.

COCOLOCO

CelticEBE

~xO Kakalak Ox~

Calyx Bros. Seed Co.

motherlode

@Rolln_J

OldSchool

WomBat

MSL Foundation

~xO Kakalak Ox~

Calyx Bros. Seed Co.

Aligee

Rabbi

Guest

YEEESSSSS!!!! prop 19 FAILS!!!

YEEESSSSS!!!! prop 19 FAILS!!!

ent

~xO Kakalak Ox~

Calyx Bros. Seed Co.

motherlode

@Rolln_J

ent

motherlode

@Rolln_J

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

UrbanGorilla

~xO Kakalak Ox~

Calyx Bros. Seed Co.

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

~xO Kakalak Ox~

Calyx Bros. Seed Co.

COCOLOCO

CelticEBE

~xO Kakalak Ox~

Calyx Bros. Seed Co.

motherlode

@Rolln_J

OldSchool

WomBat

MSL Foundation

~xO Kakalak Ox~

Calyx Bros. Seed Co.

Aligee

Rabbi

Guest

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