Zinc, Iron, Or Potassium Deficiency

[DrMcSkunkins]

5.5 ph in hydro will lock out Mg,Mb, and S. I try to keep mine between 5.8 and 6.0

 

[MegaSuiter]

I just adjusted to 6.0 last night before watering.
Thanks again!

 

[Seamaiden]

5.5-6.0
Straight Perlite
My death stars and chemdogs seem to love it.
Thanks

Ok, I've done perlite and I ended up dropping pH a wee bit lower than that, and a little tighter range--5.2-5.5. You might want to try adjusting pH before adding more fertilizer. I know what the charts say, and then I know what my plants said. I don't recall how many you have going, but maybe you can try raising for one or two, and dropping for one or two, see how they like it.

 

[MegaSuiter]

Great advice. I'll stick to 6.0 for now and lower the nutrients slightly.
Great advice guys!

 

[THELORAX802]

Nope, toxicities burn the plants. And since you say things got worse when you increased feeding, there's part of your tell. Also, you say pH'd. To what? What's your medium?

Would you agree epsom salts wouldnt hurt?

 

[FarmerX]

Hello,

Sorry to see your ladies looking sad, hopefully things are already clearing up. I'll throw my two cents in here.

1. In my experience PH fluctuation results in an interveinal discomforting and blistering that is unmistakable, sometimes I see unusually neon green on new growth.

2. What is your watering schedule. Plants that are allowed to wilt will always have leaf loss beginning at the bottom of the plant, and may have burning tips(everywhere). Dry medium will result in concentrated salts and leaves that plant pulling moisture from its lower leaves to sustain newer growth.

3. A lot of nutrient deficiencies look similar, and some even occur at the same time. This is most likely a potassium deficiency or lockout. I'd suggest trying a product with potassium silicate or potassium Sulfate incorporated, you can also try reducing magnesium and calcium, as an excess of either will inhibit K uptake.

4. It is 1000000 times more likely that you will have phosphorous toxicity than a deficiency. Phosphorous is only used in high quantities during two stages of the plants life(week one of plants life and week one of flower) otherwise it can be your lowest nutrient input other than Magnesium and some other micro nutrients.

5. How much cal-mag are you adding to your feed? Hard water can contain a significant amount of calcium, and some Magnesium, it's possible you are adding too much calcium. H&G is considered one of the better brands, compared to Canna in quality and performance-This should have a relatively complete feed.

My immmediate advice:

-Remove Cal-Mag from your schedule.
- Feed 1/2 strength H&G recommended dosing twice a day, pH 5.7-5.9, for 3 days.
-Come back and let us know how it's going.

Good luck,

X

 

[Seamaiden]

Hard water's Ca and Mg are usually bound to CO3 (carbonate) molecules, very difficult bond to break apart. I was unable to rely solely on the high levels of Ca and Mg in my (old/former) well water to give the plants what they needed, especially when not growing in soil.

That said, I really prefer to use Ca and Mg separately, a la the method mentioned below.

Would you agree epsom salts wouldnt hurt?

At this juncture, only if applied by foliar.

 

[NightsWatch]

Would you agree epsom salts wouldnt hurt?

I would agree it would hurt it more
usually plants with phos issues in most cases will have root issues.
Improper pH level, irresponsible watering or over watering, soil that has too much moisture in it, and cold temperatures of lower than 60 degrees F. Temperature is especially a problem the the change is sudden.
light intensity is another factor

It is less common for plants in a low-light environment to have a phosphorus deficiency since they perform photosynthesis at a lower rate. In contrast, plants in an intensely lit environment will be more likely to “use up” or go through the phosphorus that they have. This is simply because phosphorus is used in the process of photosynthesis. This means that when photosynthesis speeds up – which usually occurs when there is a large amount of light – then the rate of using phosphorus also increases.

Now being grown in Perlite and phos being mobile in plants which usually means it will show its ugly face on older leafs like in op's pictures

I like to ask if any new growth shows small new leafs ?? has plant slowed down in overall growth ?

The post above mentioning its only needed at the beginning and 1st week in flower.
I say your wrong it plays a key rollm in photosynthesis, respiration, energy storage and transfer, cell division, cell enlargement and several other processes.
P is needed for all of plants life this is why its on a essential in list NPK the main macro

 

[MegaSuiter]

I can see them starting to perk up a bit. I switched from GH calmag organic to the synthetic stuff. I've noticed the organic stuff creates a sludge in my reservoir. Also I had been using H&G Coco A&B. I just bought the aquaflakes A&B. Heard aquaflakes is more stable for nutrients that sit in a reservoir more than a few days. So we will see. Defiantly think me trying to keep the pH at 5.3-5.5 last week had an ill effect.

 

[MegaSuiter]

Yes on the smaller leaves and slowed growth. I was getting 1" a day. Now it's more like 1" every two-three days.

 

[NightsWatch]

I can see them starting to perk up a bit. I switched from GH calmag organic to the synthetic stuff. I've noticed the organic stuff creates a sludge in my reservoir. Also I had been using H&G Coco A&B. I just bought the aquaflakes A&B. Heard aquaflakes is more stable for nutrients that sit in a reservoir more than a few days. So we will see. Defiantly think me trying to keep the pH at 5.3-5.5 last week had an ill effect.

You can delute the GH line down and spray plants this will get it going faster to healthier plants watch new growth and i would start removing all the dead leaf matter on lower end

least your back on track i would probably stay on the synthetic diet being its readily available to the plant then the organic route

 

[FarmerX]

I would agree it would hurt it more
usually plants with phos issues in most cases will have root issues.
Improper pH level, irresponsible watering or over watering, soil that has too much moisture in it, and cold temperatures of lower than 60 degrees F. Temperature is especially a problem the the change is sudden
light intensity is another factor

It is less common for plants in a low-light environment to have a phosphorus deficiency since they perform photosynthesis at a lower rate. In contrast, plants in an intensely lit environment will be more likely to “use up” or go through the phosphorus that they have. This is simply because phosphorus is used in the process of photosynthesis. This means that when photosynthesis speeds up – which usually occurs when there is a large amount of light – then the rate of using phosphorus also increases.

Now being grown in Perlite and phos being mobile in plants which usually means it will show its ugly face on older leafs like in op's pictures

I like to ask if any new growth shows small new leafs ?? has plant slowed down in overall growth ?

The post above mentioning its only needed at the beginning and 1st week in flower.
I say your wrong it plays a key rollm in photosynthesis, respiration, energy storage and transfer, cell division, cell enlargement and several other processes.
P is needed for all of plants life this is why its on a essential in list NPK the main macro

The first paragraph here is good. Specifically the environmental emphasis.

If you are referring to P2O5 being represented on labels, you are misunderstanding the information.

I did not say phosphorous was unnecessary, I said that there is only reason to increase it during specific phases of plant life.

Look at ANY crops actual ELEMENTAL PPM, you will see that phosphorous content rarely exceeds 40-50 PPM as anything greater can be damaging to microbiology and create nutrient imbalance if it is not compensated for. Call a university and talk to an agronomist, you will learn that the only reason why phosphorous is ever loaded in a nutrient, is if it intended to be used on seedlings/fresh clones, to increase fruiting sites at maturation shift, and outdoors where leaching is of concern and needs to be compensated for.

@MegaSuiter -

I strongly doubt this is phosphorous deficiency. It does not appear to be Mg deficiency, but if excess calcium is present it may be locked out. IMO if it's not an environmental issue, this is potassium(and possibly Magnesium) deficiency or lockout.

The people who made your nutrients are professionals, it's not worth tinkering until you have an intense grasp of elemental antagonisms and everything else that comes with it. I strongly recommend using one brand of nutrients, follow the labels at half strength, water consistently and manage your environment.

You may need cal-mag, but calcium deficiency is one of the easiest to diagnose and resolve. You are less likely to find and understand the solution to the problem if you are changing a lot of variables at once. Focus on consistency, in a soilless medium, 3-5 days and your plant will adjust and tell you what she needs.

I might consider defoliating one branch of the affected leaves, and monitor that branch over the next two-five days for further progress of the issue.

That's the best advice you will get, otherwise you are listening to opinions of people who don't understand every variable or have all the information necessary to make a true diagnoses.

@Seamaiden -
Always appreciate your opinion and input!
The debate surrounding tap water's calcium availability is an interesting one. I agree that calcium carbonate is difficult to manage, but there must be a reason why hard water nutrients decrease calcium content so dramatically. To save each other a lot of typing, the only way to determine the true available calcium content is through analysis.

Cheers,

X

 

[NightsWatch]

lol the problem with nutrient companies is there lines are not one specie specific its a wide variety of species.
And we all know certain plants can be hogs when it comes to nutrients

Its up to the grower to determine by visual inspection how the plant is doing and adjust accordingly 
when plants start showing signs of deficiency if caught quick enough can be determined which it is as it progress it gets a mixture of other macro and possible micro deficiencies into the equation so it becomes harder

Reason i ruled out is the mag is because of leaf curl usually mag def leaf curls upwards :)
Therefore i ruled it out


when we look at potassium def it starts at edges and works inwards.
End result will look like them fried up leafs if not treated in time



This is why i said phos def because if you look at the the leafs not the fried up ones but the newly infected its starting in the middle of leafs working outwards

But again were all here to try n help with what is shown to the best of our knowledge and having proper ph ranges when feeding becomes rather important he should be in the 5.8 - 6.0 range for best results

when it comes to Iron or Zinc which are micro the symptoms will start at the top of the plant usually not lower half

As for tap water minerals :) i like this one Calcium and magnesium are also the most abundant minerals in tap water. The majority of the PPM, or EC reading, you obtain from a measuring device is cal-mag. The most typical form of these minerals in your untreated water is calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate. Unfortunately, contrary to popular belief, these forms are virtually unusable by plants, especially fast growing plants. The molecules of these compounds are far too large and immobile to be absorbed by the roots and transported to where the plant needs them. Relying on the cal-mag in tap water can lead to many problems

 

[FarmerX]

@NightsWatch

1. You're right in a sense. Very few the cannabis fertilizer companies that are sold through hydroponic shops are actually formulated for cannabis. They usually bite tomato and pepper formulas, which further exacerbates the misunderstanding and abuse of phosphorous by our community.

BUT..

Commercial crop production has incredibly specific nutrient programs, provided by a mariot of commercial nutrient companies you and I don't see at the hydro shop. I perform plant tissue analysis, medium analysis, irrigation water analysis and mix my own fertilizers using raw inputs(which is the standard for the large commercial crop farmers of any industry).

If you buy cannabis nutrients, you are getting a good formula for general cultivation, but you're also getting diluted salts, marked up prices, and ridiculous labeling(which allows for companies to do whatever they want without full disclosure).

2. To be honest, I doubt it's magnesium too, my emphasis remains on potassium.

We agree these are Phosphorous Deficiency:

We agree these are Potassium Deficiency:

Now here's a closer look at the plant in the background of @MegaSuiter first post:

Are the two plants in this photo being fed the same thing, and-returning to one of my previous posts-was the further damaged plant allowed to wilt at any point?

3. Hydroponic/Innert medium with low CEC pH range: 5.5-6.5, 6 being the safest.

4. Micronutrient deficiencies appear at the top of the plant first, as they are not mobile.

5. I think we all agree calcium carbonate is not plant available in hydroponic applications. The best practice is to regularly analyze your water; it's contents differ depending on your source, season, yearly rainfall, faucet location, inline piping, and sooo much more. Every state has agricultural suppliers that will analyze your tap water and create a custom nutrient mix specific to your crops needs.

Cannabis is not from another planet. Research hops and hemp, both are of the same genus(family) and incredibly similar to cannabis sativa. And despite popular belief, there is plenty of research surrounding the cannabicae genus, you have to look for it though. Hops are a bud similar to cannabis flowers, what is grown and used for brewing is actually the female reproductive organs-just like we produce the female cannabis reproductive organs for extraction and combustible consumption.

If you have access to a library or the internet, you have power and access to endless knowledge. Abuse it!



,

X

 

[THELORAX802]

Anyway Op, i was told by a gardener of EVERYTHING not just cannabis plants that epsoms can help at times when your plants may be out of whack, i am not a know it all or expert like some here, i just was trying to help you out man.

 

[MegaSuiter]

Holy fuck guys. Thank you all for the incredible support you have all provided.

 

[NightsWatch]

Holy fuck guys. Thank you all for the incredible support you have all provided.

Grow on dude soon you will have it mastered

 

[FarmerX]

I'm sorry if I'm blunt and appear rude, I'm a strong believer and encourager of self-education and empowerment. This is a good coversation, even a disagreement on a subject, as long as there is proper reason and explanation, still presents the original poster with information to evaluate and come to a conclusion on how to approach his/her plants.

I want to make sure this is understood, so I chose one of the higher end cannabis fertilizers as an example and explanation for my reason to believe it's less than likely phosphorous.

Canna A + B
As advertised on the labels as a %:

N-P-K-Ca-Mg

5-4-3-4.5-1.1

phosphorous appears to be incredibly abundant in this solution.

----

Actual Elemental NPK in PPM(when applied at 1ML of delivery solution to 1Gal of irrigation water):

N-P-K-Ca-Mg

15-5-7-4.5-3

Once you enter the fruiting stage, and add their bloom boosts, you'd be surprised that the emphasis is not phosphorous. If you care to, you can go to canna's website where they have a nutrient calculator and discuss in depth the dangers of adding too much phosphorous to hard water. In fact, I recall somewhere they even mention that pK might not be a good product if you have hard water containing excess calcium and treating alkalinity with phosphoric acid. Why would a company tell us not to use one of their products unless it was necessary?

http://www.cannagardening.com/growguide

----

I'd also encourage everyone to find the labels and dosing instructions for their favorite/preferred nutrient solutions and run them through these programs:

http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm

And



This way you can have a better understanding of what you are feeding, and you'll know what you are adding or removing when making adjustments.

---

When I said that the OP should follow brand instructions and stop listening to opinions by people who don't understand all the variables and information, that included myself.

I think its potassium, maybe some magnesium. It could be exacerbated by a wilt at some point in plants life, or even a pest. I don't know, I think.

X

 

[MegaSuiter]

Here you grow!
They look to of all almost balanced back out. The ones with the curled leaf tips are chemdogs. I imagine they are still recovering. Or just really piticular about how much nitrogen that I use.