(Fatman's) DIY nutrient mixing guide

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Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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The issue I'm having with these lists is that they're only concerned with metals. I want to know EVERYTHING that's in there, mostly cuz I'm anal like that.
 
Crysmatic

Crysmatic

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hey bud,

i'm not convinced that plants can use amino acids, vitamins, etc...they make them. myco eats ammonia/urea, so nitrate-based nutes don't need myco either.

i used the connie/big bud formula for the first time yesterday...i have lots of precipitation. i wonder if you had anything drop out of solution.

after reading daniel's hydroponics.pdf (his free e-book), he says: "fill your nutrient reservoir half with water. Add all the salts marked with a yellow background in the spreadsheet taking care to dissolve each one before adding the next. You should also add them in any order as long as magnesium sulphate is added last."

he's also said that the calculator does not allow you to add more salts than they are soluble...at acid pH. potassium phosphate is a very basic salt. It should be added first to part A, and the solution adjusted to pH 4.0 before adding the remaining salts.

I measured out my salts and dumped them into water. That's why I got precipitate. I've added 11 drops of phosphoric acid (85%) to part A and there seems to be less precipitate (after waiting 30 min for settling). perhaps I need to add nitric acid to part B to dissolve everything. i wonder if when I add stock solution to my res, the precipitate dissolves?

because part A makes my solution blood red (from the iron eddha) i couldn't pH it with my litmus drops (yes, i need a digital meter). I realised that the stock solution's pH is 6.0...which means I can pH my water, and THEN add the stock solution, without my pH drifting.
 
budboy299

budboy299

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wish I could of just copied and pasted from my sent pm...but I went and deleted them.

This is the jist of it though:

Part A, I get no precipitation from at all. totally clear although colored yellowish red from the dpta iron 7% I used (from crop king)

Part B, I get a very tiny amount of precipitation. Its not heavy, or granular, more like a kind of floating very whispy stuff. This comes from the trace elements (also from crop king, zinc, molybdenum,etc)

I started with distilled water simply because I had it for another purpose.
Making 4L of A and 4L of B, I divided up the first 4L jug into roughly 4 smaller amounts.
I then added 461grams of calcium nitrate (I used Abocol brand, calcium nitrate, greenhouse grade 15.5-0-0) to the first litre and mixed till fully disolved.
then I added 277.5 grams of Potassium Nitrate (Sylvite brand 13-0-46 greenhouse grade) to the next batch of water and disolved).
Lastly I added 57.2 grams of iron dpta 7% from crop king, and disolved.
I then combined the 3 mixtures back into my 4L jug and topped it up with the 4th small container of water till I got to the 4L mark.
No precipitation whatsoever. I only did it this way so I could see if one particular fertilizer was causing any precipitaion on its own.
The color reminds me of dark apple juice, or as gross as it sounds early morning pee.
That completed Part A

For Part B:

I again divided up a 4L jug of distilled water into equal parts. roughly a liter each.
to the first I added 300 grams of Epsom Salts, and mixed till fully disolved.
The second 1L of water I added 177.4 grams of Potassium Phosphate (Haifa Multi-MKP 0-52-34) and mixed till fully disolved.
To the third amount of water I mixed my trace elements (Manganese sulfate, Boric acid/solubar, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, and Ammonium molybdate. All from Crop King)
In this I did find a slight precipitation that I mentioned before. It is very slight though and if you shake the mixture before use it works fine. Whatever it is that precipitates out is something in the trace elements and is super light in the mixture.
I then mixed all three smaller smaller mixtures back into the 4L jug, and topped up with the remaining distilled water to the 4L mark.
This batch takes on the color of water that has a tiny bit of milk in it. Just a slight tinge of white.
So far I've just used it on my outdoor flowers (marigolds, etc) and no burn at all. Seems to really kick the regular flowers into putting on more flowers.

I know its not a real test just yet...but I am in mid bloom using H&G and I feel if I switch over now, it won't really be a very objective test as there will already be nutes in the plants from running the commercial nutes.
In about 2 weeks I will be running another bunch of clones and will do the "crysmatic" nutes from start till stop as a test.

Overdrive contains ascorbic acid at .5% Ascorbic acid is available at most health food store for quite cheap. I will add it to my week 6-7 nutes just because it is so cheap, plus I already have some. It may or may not make any difference but I have it so hey why not?

hope this helps. I am sure my way to mix up the nutes is not the only way...but it did work for me. -BB
 
MeJuana

MeJuana

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You notice how it says "(0.2% or less insoluble)." for example on Calcium Nitrate


Maybe this is the floaties and to be expected?
 
J

Jalisco Kid

Guest
First two labels from oregon website third and fourth from AN today.
 
ConnoisseurPartA
ConnoisseurPartB
ConnoisseurA GA bg ver 2
ConnoisseurB GA bg ver 2
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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hey bud,

i'm not convinced that plants can use amino acids, vitamins, etc...they make them. myco eats ammonia/urea, so nitrate-based nutes don't need myco either.
I know that's not really what this thread is about, but it stuck out to me. I believe amino acids have a place in crop farming. Plants do use them.

Here are a couple of things for you to peruse about amino acids in regard to, first, whether or not a plant can use them, and then in regard to how.



http://www.priyachem.com/effect.htm

Google Scholar results: can plants use amino acids?
 
J

Jalisco Kid

Guest
Here is a sales pitch on aminos. When I get home I can post some research. JK
Effects of Amion Acids on Plants
Every plant like any organism needs certain components for
growth over and above soil, sun, rain and air. The basic
component of living cells is Proteins, with building block material,
Amino Acids. Proteins are formed by sequence of Amino Acids.
Plants synthesize Amino Acids from the Primary elements, the
Carbon and Oxygen obtained from air, Hydrogen from water in
the soil, forming Carbon Hydrate by means of photosynthesis and
combining it with the Nitrogen which the plants obtain from the
soil, leading to synthesis of amino acids, by collateral metabolic
pathways. Only L-Amino Acids are part of these Proteins and
have metabolic activity.
The requirement of amino acids in essential quantities is well
known as a means to increase yield and overall quality of crops.
The application of amino acids for foliar use is based on its
requirement by plants in general and at critical stages of growth
in particular. Plants absorb Amino Acids through Stomas and is
proportionate to environment temperature.
Amino Acids are fundamental ingredients in the process of Protein
Synthesis. About 20 important Amino Acids are involved in the
process of each function. Studies have proved that Amino Acids
can directly or indirectly influence the physiological activities of the
plant.
Amino Acids are also supplied to plant by incorporating them into
the soil. It helps in improving the microflora of the soil thereby
facilitating the assimilation of nutrients.
Foliar Nutrition in the form of Protein Hydrolysate (Known as
Amino Acids Liquid) and foliar spray provide readymade building
blocks for Protein synthesis.
Protein Synthesis
Proteins have a structural function, metabolic function
(enzymes), a transport function and a stock of Amino Acids
function.
Only L - Amino Acids are assimilated by plants. D - Amino
Acids are not recognised by the enzymatic locus and therefore
can not participate in protein synthesis.
Hence Amino Acids obtained by organic synthesis are not
well assimilated.
Stress Resistance
Stress such as High temperature, Low humidity, Frost, Pest
attack, Hailstorm, Floods have a negative effect on plant
metabolism with a corresponding reduction in crop quality and
quantity.
The application of Amino Acids before, during and after the stress
conditions supplies the plants with Amino Acids which are directly
related to stress physiology and thus has a preventing and
recovering effect.
Effect of Photosynthesis
Plants synthesize carbohydrates by photosynthesis, Low
photosynthesis rate implies a slow growth leading to death of the
plant, chlorophyll is the responsible molecule for the absorption of
the light energy.
Glycine and Glutamic Acid are fundamental metabolites in the
process of formation of vegetable tissue and chlorophyll
synthesis.
These Amino Acids help to increase chlorophyll concentration in
the plant leading to higher degree of photosynthesis. This makes
crops lush Green.
Action on the Stomas
Stomas are the cellular structures that control the hydric balance
of the plant, the macro and micronutrient absorption and the
absorption of gases.
The opening of the stomas is controlled by both external factors
(light, humidity, temperature and salt concentration) and internal
factors (amino acids concentration, abcisic acid etc.)
The Stomas are closed when light and humidity are low &
temperature and salt concentration are high, when stomas are
closed photosynthesis and transpiration are reduced (low
absorption of macro & micronutrients) and respiration is
increased (Carbohydrate destruction)
In this case the metabolic balance of the plant is negative.
Catabolism is higher than anabolism. This implies slow metabolism
and stops the plant growth.
L-glutamic acid acts as a cytoplasm osmotic agent of the “guard
cells”. Thus favouring the opening of the stomas.
Chelating Effect
Amino Acids have a chelating effect on micronutrients. When
applied together with micronutrients, the absorption and
transportation of micronutrients inside the plant is easier.
This effect is due to the chelating action and to the effect of cell
membrane permiability.
L - Glycine & L - Glutamic Acid are known to be very effective
chelating agents.
Amino Acids & PhytohOrmones
Amino Acids are precursors or activators of phytohormones and
growth substances. L - Methionine is precursor of ethylene and of
growth factors such as Espermine and Espermidine, which are
synsthesized from 5 - Adenosyl Methionine.
L - Tryptophan is precursor for Auxin synthesis. L - Tryptophan
is used in plants in L - Form only. L - Tryptophan is available only
if hydrolysis of Protein is carried out by enzyme.
If hydrolysis is carried out by acid or alkali, as done in many
European countries,
L - Tryptophan is destroyed.
L - Arginine induces synthesis of flower and fruit related
hormones.
Pollination and Fruit Formation
Pollination is the transport of pollen to the pistil, so fecundation
and formation of the fruit is possible.
L - Proline helps in fertility of Pollen. L - Lysine, L - Methionine, L -
Glutamic Acid are essential amino acids for pollination.
These amino acids increase the pollen germination and the length
of the pollinic tube.
Equilibrium of Soil Flora
The equilibrium of the microbial flora of the agriculture soil is a
basic question for a good mineralisation of the organic matter and
also for a good soil structure and fertility around the roots.
L-methionine is precursor growth factors that stabilize the cell
walls of the microbial flora.
General
L - Glutamic Acid & L - Aspartic Acid, by transamination give rise to the
rest of the amino acids.
L - Proline & Hydroxy Proline act mainly on the hydric balance
of the plant strengthening the cellular walls in such a way that
they increase resistance to unfavourable climatic conditions.
L - Alanine, L - Valine & L - Leucine improve quality of fruits.
L - Histidine helps in proper ripening of fruits.2
AMINO ACIDS OBTAINED BY ENZYME
HYDROLYSIS - A FEW FACTS
1 CONSISTS OF TWENTY AMINO ACIDS.
2 ALL AMINO ACIDS ARE IN L FORM (NATURAL FORM) & ARE
ABSORBED QUICKLY & EASILY BY PLANTS.
3 NO CYCLIZATION OF GLUTAMINE WHICH IS IMPORTANT FOR
ENERGY METABOLISM.
4 NO DESTRUCTION OF ASPARGINE WHICH HAS ACTIVE
ROLE IN RESPIRATORY FUNCTION.
5 TRYPTOPHAN WHICH IS STARTING MATERIAL FOR
SYNTHESIS OF AUXIN IS AVAILABLE IN L FORM.
6 SERINE & THREONINE ARE FREE & IN L FORM.
7 ASPARTIC ACID & GLUTAMIC ACID WHICH ARE VERY
IMPORTANT AMINO ACIDS ARE AVAILABLE IN FREE L FORM FOR
EASY ABSORPTION.
8 AMIDE NITROGEN IS NOT FORMED.
9 HIGH PERCENTAGE OF BIOLOGICAL VALUE & NUTRITIVE
VALUE.
10 NO INORGANIC NITROGEN IS PRESENT.
11 HIGH QUALITY OF INTERNATIONAL STANDARD EXPORTED
WORLD OVER.
12 CONSUMPTION IS AT LEVEL OF 250 ml. PER ACRE, 2-3
SPRAYS. EXCESS DOSE IS NON TOXIC.
MANUFACTURED BYCOUNTRY SELECT Catfish
for HCA from100% CATFISH PROTEIN
P.O. BOX 271 ISOLA MS. 38754
PHONE 662-962-3101 OR 877-964-2885
FAX: 662-962-0118 OR 805-474-8531
web site http.//www.multibloom.com
 
squarepusher

squarepusher

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43
First two labels from oregon website third and fourth from AN today.

i wouldn't recommend copying Coneissur, its meant to be used with their slew of additives and boosters to be effective as an all in one.
 
Crysmatic

Crysmatic

529
43
aminos

from the second link, 'Plants synthesize Amino Acids'. "plant physiological ecology" by lambers states that plants can take up aminos and sugars, but doesn't elaborate. i'm not so sure that they benefit them directly. your same link states that certain aminos i.e. l-glycine and l-glutamic acid are strong chelators and contribute to soil health - both moot points in hydro.

muscle tissue is made of proteins, which come from aminos, usually from meat, and ultimate from plants. we need to eat essential aminos because we can't make them. molecules have a half life. in a living plant, they're replenished as quickly as they are destroyed. even if you 'pump' up a plant temporarily with aminos and vitamins, they quickly return to equilibrium. take bodybuilders - they're big, but they're not as strong as they look, nor as healthy. their systems overcompensate for unnaturally high levels of hormones. do aminos add to a plant's health? i'm sure they're benign. if they don't add to health then what's the point? kiss

link: "The Stomas are closed when light and humidity are low & temperature and salt concentration are high, when stomas are closed photosynthesis and transpiration are reduced". so we can deduce that photosynthesis is maximised when light is high, humidity is high, temperature is low, and salt concentration is low. let's not forget higher CO2.

the book goes on to say "...however, such transport in the xylem also occurs in the absence of transpiration, so that the movement of materials in the transpiration stream is not strongly affected by transpiration rate." this seems to contradict fatman's style of 85* temp, and 35% rH to 'boost' photosynthesis, or boost K because of higher transpiration.

i read a [university] study where the most potent pot was grown at 72*F day and night temps. some have suggested a VPR of 0.8-1.0, which translates to 65-70% rH at that temp. if lights are close, and raise leaf internal temps, then respiration is helpful to cool the leaf.

we come back to a holistic and balanced view of growing. everything is important, and it's senseless to take one aspect out of context and analyse it to death.
 
J

Jalisco Kid

Guest
I have found air temps at 78* water at 68* and rh at 65-75% leads to some killer growth. I never go over 1200 ppm except for a rez fill at weeks 4 and 6 where I might go up to 1450 on some strains for a few days. JK
 
Crysmatic

Crysmatic

529
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i wouldn't recommend copying Coneissur, its meant to be used with their slew of additives and boosters to be effective as an all in one.

i reverse engineered connoisseur plus bud ignitor, big bud, and overdrive. like i said, i think we can safely ignore any beneficials, vitamins, and aminos. the overall ratio was 1.2-1-2.1 for most of the run. new connie simplifies to 1.2-1-2.5. botanicare's power flower simplifies to 1-1-2.5. jk's recipe simplifies to 0.85-1-2.3. h&g aquaflakes is 1.35-1-2.9. fatman uses 2.8-1-4.4. even lucas gives decent results. it seems to me recipes are converging.

i didn't focus on connie because it's the best - someone asked for an AN recipe and i chose their 'premium' formula.

what i want to know is: what's in clearex, drip clean, et al.??

maybe i should just go back to compost and manures...
 
squarepusher

squarepusher

959
43
i reverse engineered connoisseur plus bud ignitor, big bud, and overdrive. like i said, i think we can safely ignore any beneficials, vitamins, and aminos. the overall ratio was 1.2-1-2.1 for most of the run. new connie simplifies to 1.2-1-2.5. botanicare's power flower simplifies to 1-1-2.5. jk's recipe simplifies to 0.85-1-2.3. h&g aquaflakes is 1.35-1-2.9. fatman uses 2.8-1-4.4. even lucas gives decent results. it seems to me recipes are converging.

i didn't focus on connie because it's the best - someone asked for an AN recipe and i chose their 'premium' formula.

what i want to know is: what's in clearex, drip clean, et al.??

maybe i should just go back to compost and manures...

im not sure about clearex, but there some peep i saw on ebay who sells humic/root fungus in bulk for pretty cheap if you wanted to add those.

I'm actually working on my own nutrient line, to basically just copy big name formulas and sell them in bulk for a big discount to try to win some customers for anyone who doesn't want to be bothered mixing themselves, but doesn't want to pay out the rearend. Well see how it goes in the next several weeks, I've reverse engineered tons of formulas lately, if anyone wants help on any of the process let me know I'll try to help
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,596
638
That's a good question on the drip cleaners. Can you use ag products? I've hardly looked into that.
***Edit: Took a peek, this is something I just found that's organic, or so they claim.


I just found a good article on keeping drip systems clean in between growing seasons. I know it's a different application, but clean is clean.
http://www.perennialandnurserynews....-growers-cleaning-your-drip-irrigation-system

Crysmatic, while I know very little about plant physiology, I know that proteins can be structured in the diet using only plant sources, i.e. corn-beans-rice, in combination, and can serve as the basis to form a relatively complete protein that can serve closely as a meat replacement in the diet (other minerals, lipids and vitamins notwithstanding). Because of that, and because of what I saw powdered Big Bud do with my own grow, I'm still not willing to simply discount the role of amino acids in plant health and nutrition.
What happens to the rotting animal carcass in the forest, jungle or plains? (I try to think of ways something may have been present in nature.)


Another question; I've witnessed much debate over the definition of "hydro", and so I need to know, in *this* context, do you consider coco to be hydro? Part of the reason the question is being asked is because I do inoculate my coco mixes with mycos, and I mix my organics with chemical salt ferts (judiciously, I hope).
 
squarepusher

squarepusher

959
43
yes coco is hydro, you need to add a bit more cal+mag i think though
 
Crysmatic

Crysmatic

529
43
jk posted a link in his nute thread: http://www.usu.edu/cpl/research_hydroponics3.htm "Plants have evolved to tolerate large nutrient imbalances in the root-zone." could it mean that anything from fatman's 2.8-1-4.4 to maplereef's 1.7-10-5.1, and anything in between work? if you change the res weekly, or run dtw, then you provide enough elements to prevent deficiency, and not allow elements to build up and cause toxicity.

Hydroponics (From the Greek words hydro, water and ponos, labor) is a method of growing plants using mineral nutrient solutions, in water, without soil - wiki. the key word is 'mineral' - medium isn't relevant. any time you rely on microbes breaking elements down to make them available to the plant, you're drifting into geoponics - geo = soil.

seamaiden. i 100% agree that plants make aminos. my argument is that they manufacture them, not consume them. any benefit seems to result from soil health and their chelation factor in geoponics. running pk and aminos simultaneously won't tell you which component is responsible for the growth. run your own test. make your own 0-1-3 without aminos, and use aminos without the pk, and see which gives better results. you may find that aminos potentiate the pk (work better together than each running alone).

having a reactive medium means you have less control of which nutrients are available to the plant. it seems soil and soilless media can't tolerate as high P as pure hydro. then again, it might just be that the range is so large, that nute companies arbitrarily change up the ratios (while staying within the range) to convince you to buy more product. it seems fairly lucrative to have a hydro formula, coco formula, and soilless formula; plus three kinds of bene's, four kinds of bloom boosters, rooter, enzymes, cleaner, extra micros/kelp.
 
budboy299

budboy299

684
43
This is what is on the H&G aqua flakes bottle:

Part "A"

3.1-0-3.4
.3% ammoniacal Nitrogen
2.8% Nitrate Nitrogen
3.4% Soluble Potash

Derived from Calcium Nitrate, Ammonium Nitrate, Nitric Acid and Potassium Hydroxide

Part "B"

1.5-3.4-6.5
1.5% Nitrate Nitrogen
3.4% Available Phosphate
6.5% Soluble Potash
.8% Magnesium



Derived from Nitric Acid, Potassium Hydroxide, Phosphoric Acid, and Magnesium Sulphate
 
budboy299

budboy299

684
43
Here is the label on clearex....biggest rippoff in history! It does work but man it only has about 50 cents worth of sugar in it.

Here is the "recipe" for it

Dextrose (wine making store) 1kg = $2.50
Sucrose (table sugar)


Per 1 litre of super-concentrate

120 grams of Dextrose (same basic thing as glucose)
60 grams of Sucrose



use 4 – 7.5 ml per gallon of water

(dextrose is the dry ingredient, whereas glucose is the liquid version. They are both simply corn sugar)

this is for a super-concentrate of it, as the manufactured clearex is mixed super weak!
 
Clearexgallonbacklabel
Crysmatic

Crysmatic

529
43
thanks bud! it's basically carbo load. h&g alleges that drip clean has little salt 'magnets'. any idea what's in that?

aqua flakes is 4.6-3.4-9.9 and 2.75 ml/l. bud, does the bottle state weight? at 1 g/ml, i get 127-41-226 *64*-22 CaMg. hydroponics buddy says 'bases such as KOH cannot be used in A+B solutions'...really?! if i want 64 ppm calcium (50% of N), 53 ppm N comes from calcium nitrate, 8 from ammonium, and 66 from nitric acid (50% of total N). i'd like to see how bud xl affects npk.

SUMMARY COMMENTS ON SPECIFIC ELEMENTS
NITROGEN: Plant requirements for nitrogen are sometimes larger than all of the other elements combined. It can thus be difficult to supply nitrogen in the refill solution without adding excess amounts of other cations. The best solution is to use nitric acid (HNO3) for pH control. This can supply 50% of the nitrogen needs of the crop without adding excess cations. If extra nitrogen is required, ammonium nitrate can be added to the pH control solution. However, because ammonium decreases the uptake of other cations (K, Ca, Mg, and micronutrients) I do not recommend its use in hydroponic solutions...

CALCIUM Calcium is nontoxic, even at high tissue concentrations, but it accumulates in solution if too much is added to the refill solution. [reason why recirc nutes call for low Ca?)

it's cool that h&g uses nitric acid to lower calcium ppm - instead of ammonia or urea like AN. i just bought a lb of ammonium nitrate dammit!
 
Crysmatic

Crysmatic

529
43
Big bud, little price

fyi, big bud 0-1-3 is:
4.4g potassium phosphate
9.5g potassium sulphate
per L of solution. this is less than $0.20 worth of salts! one $6 500g tub of potassium sulphate will make 52L of big bud...over $2,000 retail. AN brags about ROI with their products. lmfao

generic 0-2-4 (0-9-18 uses 4.5x the quantity)
8.3g potassium phosphate
11g potassium sulphate
 
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