phytochrome manipulation

[Desertboy]

740nm

 

[dextr0]

Nice find! I was looking for strips of aluminum (It takes a certain kind of aluminum , its posted on the link I posted before.) like that so I could do some myself. All I could find were regular heatsinks though.

 

[Desertboy]

They are the same LED's as in my lamp, the light bars might need control gear ring and check if they do 1 control gear does up to 10 fittings.

I prefer these bars really for a larger grow op but mine in a small one so even my lamp is overkill.

Glad to see some Americans joining in, don't want a limey showing you guys up after all :evilgrin0040:

 

[Desertboy]

Phototropism is directional growth in which the direction of growth is determined by the direction of the light source. In other words, it is the growth and response to a light stimulus. Phototropism is most often observed in plants, but can also occur in other organisms such as fungi. The cells on the plant that are farthest from the light have a chemical called auxin that reacts when phototropism occurs. This causes the plant to have elongated cells on the farthest side from the light. Phototropism is one of the many plant tropisms or movements which respond to external stimuli. Growth towards a light source is a positive phototropism, while growth away from light is called negative phototropism (or Skototropism). Most plant shoots exhibit positive phototropism, while roots usually exhibit negative phototropism, although gravitropism may play a larger role in root behavior and growth.

This is very important!

Phototropins are photoreceptor proteins (specifically, flavoproteins) that mediate phototropism responses in higher plants. Along with cryptochromes and phytochromes they allow plants to respond and alter their growth in response to the light environment. Phototropins may also be important for the opening of stomata.

Phototropins are autophosphorylating protein kinases that activate in response to blue light. When blue light hits the phototropin protein in the cell membrane, the phototropin protein will unfold and undergo phosphorylation that can cause a cascade of events inside of the cell.

Phototropins are part of the phototropic sensory system in plants that causes various environmental responses in plants. Phototropins specifically will cause stems to bend towards light, and stomata to open. Also, phototropins are important in chloroplast movements inside the cell. They also mediate the first changes in stem elongation in blue light (before cryptochromes become active) and phototropin 1 also is required for blue light mediated transcript destabilization of specific mRNAs in the cell.

Phototropism in plants such as Arabidopsis thaliana is directed by blue light receptors called phototropins.[1] Other photosensitive receptors in plants include phytochromes that sense red light[2] and cryptochromes that sense blue light.[3] Different organs of the plant may exhibit different phototropic reactions to different wavelengths of light. Stem tips exhibit positive phototropic reactions to blue light, while root tips exhibit negative phototropic reactions to blue light. Both root tips and most stem tips exhibit positive phototropism to red light.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phototropism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptochrome

With this information and the right wavelengths

Cryptochromes are known to possess two chromophores: pterin (in the form of 5,10-methenyl-6,7,8-tri-hydrofolic acid (MHF)) and flavin (in the form of FAD). Both may absorb a photon, and in Arabidopsis, pterin appears to absorb at a wavelength of 380 nm and flavin at 450 nm. Past studies have supported a model by which energy captured by pterin is transferred to flavin.[14] Under this model of phototransduction, FAD would then be reduced to FADH, which probably mediates the phosphorylation of a certain domain in cryptochrome. This could then trigger a signal transduction chain, possibly affecting gene regulation in the cell nucleus.

380nm and 450nm we can quite possibly control plant and cell elongation with low powered LED to enable us to grow short sativa's or short outdoor plants in out greenhouses.

They're also great potential for sexing plants without stressing them.

 

[phenotyper]

dextr0,Desertboy: you guys are filled with awesome information. thanks!

 

[Desertboy]

Wiki is full on information the first 1/2 of this thread is wrong!

 

[Desertboy]

The blue philips greenpower LED's are 470nm which could be very, very useful.

A picture of my MPB style grow, modified aquafarm into a 35l DWC flooming aerated, temp controlled and very soon with added far red.

 

[dextr0]

Nice! What parts are wrong can u clarify them for me Desertboy?

Wiki is full on information the first 1/2 of this thread is wrong!

 

[Desertboy]

Well the first page for a start!

We now know/accept that 700-800nm (Ideally 730nm) or far red is the light we need to change Phytochromes from Prf to Pr state which happens by natural decay anyway. At the beginning of the thread we were told to use 660nm which is plain wrong and the opposite of what we need.

660nm will change Pr to Prf which we don't want unless we want to extend the day (Possibly for outdoor crops).

400-500nm will reduce stretch possibly useful to grow short sativa's.

The thread started out wrong and then went right.

Wikipedia backs this up

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytochrome

Phytochromes are characterised by a red/far-red photochromicity. Photochromic pigments change their "colour" (spectral absorbance properties) upon light absorption. In the case of phytochrome the ground state is Pr, the r indicating that it absorbs red light particularly strongly. The absorbance maximum is a sharp peak 650–670 nm, so concentrated phytochrome solutions look turquoise-blue to the human eye. But once a red photon has been absorbed, the pigment undergoes a rapid conformational change to form the Pfr state. Here fr indicates that now not red but far-red (also called "near infra-red"; 705–740 nm) is preferentially absorbed. This shift in absorbance is apparent to the human eye as a slightly more greenish colour. When Pfr absorbs far-red light it is converted back to Pr. Hence, red light makes Pfr, far-red light makes Pr. In plants at least Pfr is the physiologically active or "signalling" state.

 

[Desertboy]

Cytochromes are protein molecules that harbor a chromophore, a color-absorbing molecule. Depending on the wavelength of light striking the plant surface, the phytochromes are converted between different states or forms. When the phytochromes receive red light (660nm) they become the Pfr type, which is active and allow flowering to proceed. If far-red light (730nm) is detected the phytochrome becomes the Pr type. The Pr type is a biologically inactive form and so flowering cannot proceed. An indoor gardener can use this principle to initiate flowering even in a light cycle of 14 or more hours. During the dark period of a plant’s life, they can be given a brief pulse of red light. This changes the Pr type into the Pfr form and allows flowering to begin. Interestingly, these same phytochrome proteins play a crucial role in seed germination.




anyone know if this works on cannabis...and if so where can a light be bought that has that narrow a range(660nm)

!!!!!!!

Misunderstood

Prf is the signalling state which keeps a plant in veg

Pr is the asleep state, we're after for flowering.

Prf decays to Pr in the absence of light in about 2 hours, with far red it's almost instant. I think light waves other than 660nm must also cause Pr-Prf otherwise we would get flowering plants under 470nm lights which might be really useful in some ways.

 

[dextr0]

Very good Desertboy it shows you payed attention. What im saying is was anything else wrong? I tried to correct everything but knew little about all this at the time. I had no need for it.

Anyway if there is anything else wrong in the thread I would like to know as well as others im sure.

 

[Desertboy]

I'm really pissed tonight, royal wedding an all, hic.

I think that was probably the main thing but it went of for a couple of pages.


I may have exaggerated when I said 1/2.

:(

I'll reread the whole thread tomorrow.

I might rewrite the whole thread from scratch to include other wavelengths of light and possible applications.

I'm only myself just starting to understand what the hell is going on but I'm surprised smarter people than me haven't sussed this out years ago.

I believe we have here the future of cannabis growing under artificial lights and possibly even in greenhouses.

This is big, much bigger than all of us.

 

[Desertboy]

Really is barely visible but you can tell a lot of light is being given out just above the visual range. Very weird hurts to look at it.

I didn't bring my camera but I doubt you can take photo's that would do it justice, truly amazing!!

Ordering another one and a different spectrum lamp as well!

It's addictive.

 

[Desertboy]

This shot cannot even come close to doing this justice.

I love this lamp, it's like Acid!!!


Damn if I had this lamp 12 years ago!!! Too old for that shit now.


You can tell there's a hell of a lot going on outside the visual range.

I'm struggling for e27 fitting locally not popular in the UK but I'll sort it properly this week.

After this grow taking a little time off and ripping this room down to rebuild 2 identical flower rooms 1 600w in each so I can run a control room as well and have a semblance of professionalism.

 

[dextr0]

Oh man I envy u!!!! I want a aqua farm so bad. We dont have them here in the states though. Do u like the way they work? How long have u been using them?

 

[Desertboy]

Oh man I envy u!!!! I want a aqua farm so bad. We dont have them here in the states though. Do u like the way they work? How long have u been using them?

I turned it into an MPB essentially.

I put 1 40mm return to reservoir and used a 1200l/hour water pump to feed to the farm.

Top pot I use a medium called Fytocell and after rooted into the bottom DWC
portion I don't water the top pot.

This is the first time doing it, I have no airstones I floom only for aeration.


I monitor ORP (Oxygen reduction potential or Dissolved O2) and found airstones to be pointless for my scale operation. (1 plant easy to floom)


The lower ORP is 4 12" airstones, the higher one is with flooming alone, using airstones and flooming add little if anything to the ORP but does drastically increase the pathogen's in the reservoir.

 

[dextr0]

U mean u flume..right on. Thats pretty cool. Will u keep us posted? Please?

 

[Desertboy]

Don't mean to be pedantic but hey it's 4:33am here and I can't bloody sleep as still on Columbia time.

It's flooming, not fluming!

 

[dextr0]

Hey man, I respect anyone who can teach me something. Lol. Thank u.

Ive also never heard of pedantic. So thats x2.

"I wanted to ask if a small aquarium pump and airstone is enough to oxygenate a couple hundred gallon vat or tank full of fish?

When it comes to aeration:

Nothing comes close to "flooming" - This requires nothing more than a water-pump which can lay flat on the pond or tank bottom and force water upward to the surface of the vat.

It is not important, or even desirable for the water being "floomed" to break the surface - we DO NOT want a geyser.
All we want is a gentle swell at the surface where the water looks like it's "bulging" over the pump location. You see, oxygen exchange occurs only in contact with atmospheric "air" which is 21% oxygen. Venturis and other bubblers simply create agitation of the water and the bubbles lift the water to the surface for gas exchange.
Even better, a water pump forces large amounts of water to the surface for gas exchange, and it does so "simply" and very quietly. Flooming is ideal in retailers tanks because, unlike air bubbles, flooming causes less surface distortion so the consumer can still see and buy fish.

A water pump lifts more water than an airstone could EVER lift to the surface for gas exchange.

Almost any brand of pump can work. You will find some pumps "stand up" better than others. It can be disastrous if the pump lays over and stops "flooming" the surface.

Also, if the pump DOES "geyser" the surface the risk is increased that the pond or vat could be pumped dry by the pump if it directed water over the edge and onto the ground.

So, a gentle flooming in any tank or vat is superior aeration. And it's as simple as dropping in a submersible pump and aiming it at the heavens.

Erik -

This information has gone into wide spread use especially at the retail level because the fish for sale show up better without a cloud of bubbles on the surface. However, despite being a common thing, the pundits will not even try it because it must be patently wrong. Why try something they "know" is wrong? Remember, whatever they know, is the one and only "right" way."

 

[Desertboy]

Hey man, I respect anyone who can teach me something. Lol. Thank u.

Ive also never heard of pedantic. So thats x2.

"I wanted to ask if a small aquarium pump and airstone is enough to oxygenate a couple hundred gallon vat or tank full of fish?

When it comes to aeration:

Nothing comes close to "flooming" - This requires nothing more than a water-pump which can lay flat on the pond or tank bottom and force water upward to the surface of the vat.

It is not important, or even desirable for the water being "floomed" to break the surface - we DO NOT want a geyser.
All we want is a gentle swell at the surface where the water looks like it's "bulging" over the pump location. You see, oxygen exchange occurs only in contact with atmospheric "air" which is 21% oxygen. Venturis and other bubblers simply create agitation of the water and the bubbles lift the water to the surface for gas exchange.
Even better, a water pump forces large amounts of water to the surface for gas exchange, and it does so "simply" and very quietly. Flooming is ideal in retailers tanks because, unlike air bubbles, flooming causes less surface distortion so the consumer can still see and buy fish.

A water pump lifts more water than an airstone could EVER lift to the surface for gas exchange.

Almost any brand of pump can work. You will find some pumps "stand up" better than others. It can be disastrous if the pump lays over and stops "flooming" the surface.

Also, if the pump DOES "geyser" the surface the risk is increased that the pond or vat could be pumped dry by the pump if it directed water over the edge and onto the ground.

So, a gentle flooming in any tank or vat is superior aeration. And it's as simple as dropping in a submersible pump and aiming it at the heavens.

Erik -

This information has gone into wide spread use especially at the retail level because the fish for sale show up better without a cloud of bubbles on the surface. However, despite being a common thing, the pundits will not even try it because it must be patently wrong. Why try something they "know" is wrong? Remember, whatever they know, is the one and only "right" way."

Ditch the airstones as long as the water churns at surface level I'd say yes.

A large tank use 2 pumps on opposite sides.

I don't keep fish but I do know a thing or 2 about plant growing.

You can earth you tanks as well if you're