Lemon Alien Dawg Hermie Prone

[bonkia]

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/aliens-take-over-light-dep.54822/page-4#post-1027347

 

[squiggly]

its the genetics..

No, for lack of a better way to say it is your lackluster understanding of the plant.

Now for your specific system it may be the genetics. The problem is that cannabis, when it was evolving, wasn't consulting with you and helping you to develop your system.

For all we know, the plants that grow well in your system are the mutants and the ones that hermie are normal. This, of course, amounts to playing devil's advocate but its a very serious possibility.

Again we cannot know the difference without empiricism. That's why the fuck we do science in the first place.

If people could just guess shit based on seeing it once then we'd have 10 kazillion "theories of everything" by now, and all of them would be valid.

Unfortunately that isn't how it works (it would be cool as shit if it were--the world would be interesting as hell).

Sadly, that's not the reality we inhabit.

 

[sky high]

How can you prove it is grower error/etc. 99.9% of the time when he is growing genetics that cannot be fully traced back to any true source/origin and have had any number of crossings/unknown components/heriditary traits blended into their history?

Layman terms is a crock in this game. Too many self-made "experts". Folks grow multiple strains in the same room...and they do fine/do not hermie...but these...well...he just screwed em up 'cus he didn't somehow understand the complexity of their existence er some other BS?

why can't his words merely stand as his truth, squig?? I can't speak for rb or anyone else here but it gets pretty old to me to hear the same cheerleaders who are funneled masses of special seeds and guarded/held cuts from the breeder then talk down/question/degrade the views and experiences of those who are truly consumers of the >stock< wares.

it is what it is. (his truth, not yours) Give the guy a break.

 

[bonkia]

I've bought his entire line... I know what works and what doesnt..

My lad didn't her. At all.. My ewoke... Everywhere ... My hallutination.. Yah pictures speak for themselves.

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/aliens-take-over-light-dep.54822/page-4#post-1027347

 

[bonkia]

I'm growing well over 25 genetics in " my system" that's a pretty good control group.. Try again.

 

[squiggly]

since there is clearly such a large difference in my and the OPs feed schedules dont you think that merits some thought over just jumping on the breeder??

I don't think it. I know it.

However--this doesn't absolve the breeder either. Let's be clear.

This is a case of not enough information from the standpoint I've taken--not one that says "it was the grower."

I'm only trying to make the point here that seeing anthers one time isn't enough. It's jumping to a conclusion to say otherwise and its unrealistic.

50+ years of biological science says so, not me--lets get that straight.


I DO think, after reading around, that the EC is high. After consulting with a botany major friend (master's level) he assures me this is exactly the kind of thing that can cause hermaphroditism. So I think that's a compelling hypothesis.

I personally would like to have seen cuts of these varieties taken and them run at the lower EC to see the results--from a purely scientific standpoint.

Like I said though, it's not fault of the OP. If the shit wasn't going well under my system I'd kill them too AND I would report it to the farm. I think he did everything right in that regard (except take criticism--which I didn't think was too harsh).

 

[squiggly]

I'm growing well over 25 genetics in " my system" that's a pretty good control group.. Try again.

You misunderstand. All plants are not the same. All humans are not the same.

Many humans have metabolic differences. For instance there are three classifications of humans that are widely accepted:

1. Ectomorph

2. Mesomorph

3. Endomorph

Are you aware of these? Read up on them if not and my meaning should become clear. I'm making the argument that cannabis can very likely present similar differences (and I'm being a bit facetious because of course we all know that it can).

To be meaner about it I'd simply tell you that your statements are unscientific and you've completely misunderstood and misstated the concept of a control group. In fact this exactly the error I was attempting to correct initially. A control group would be a large group of genetically identical plants under different conditions (IE LAD plants of the same genotype in different environments).

Please understand this isn't intended to be mean, however. What I'm saying is that this is a very complex subject and growers have not been paying it the respect it deserves--instead randomly guessing shit they think is right.

I'm sorry, dudes, science disagrees with you whole-heartedly.

 

[bonkia]

500ppm is high? So, every fertilizer company and there scientist that create the nutes is wrong?

 

[squiggly]

500ppm is high? So, every fertilizer company and there scientist that create the nutes is wrong?

Was speaking on the other fella--please don't become combative (I'm saying this as a member not a mod--so continue being an angry contrarian if you really want to, you aren't breaking any rules in doing so) .

This is exactly the type of shit I was trying to avoid by flat out telling you guys that you've been conceptualizing hermaphroditism in the wrong way.

You are, and that's final. If you don't believe me--read a book, you are wrong.

I've said my piece, I'll let the members sort it out.

 

[squiggly]

How can you prove it is grower error/etc. 99.9% of the time when he is growing genetics that cannot be fully traced back to any true source/origin and have had any number of crossings/unknown components/heriditary traits blended into their history?

Well to be fair--I can't prove it. Science never proves anything, remember? It merely demonstrates.

If, however, the opposite of what I've said were to be demonstrated--it would be the first time in all of genetic study that such a thing had been observed (a high degree of gametic or zygotic hermaphroditism). As I said this type of mutation is among the most rare in the entirety of the tree of life we've yet cataloged. You have severely understated the rarity at 0.1%. I added all of those extra 9's for a reason--it's more like 0.0000001%

We don't know everything, we never can or will, and thusly I can't prove this (or anything)--however, common knowledge suggests it makes more sense to expect the positive to be demonstrated here rather than the negative.

The expectation from the whole of science is that this will not be the case. If it were to be, this would be perhaps the most special thing about cannabis to have ever been discovered. So while I can't prove it--I am within my good sense to SEVERELY DOUBT IT SUPER BIG TIME.

Layman terms is a crock in this game. Too many self-made "experts". Folks grow multiple strains in the same room...and they do fine/do not hermie...but these...well...he just screwed em up 'cus he didn't somehow understand the complexity of their existence er some other BS?

It's not BS if it's true--and you're no better than a self-made "expert" if you think you can "prove" the difference. As I said at the beginning, the point is that we can't really know one way or the other--however if you were to ask a botanist they'd tell you the impetus would be on someone to prove it was the genetics and not the other way around. The assumption would be environment EVERY TIME from a scientific perspective (at least until some nobel prize winning discovery about the incredibly special genetics of cannabis is made).

why can't his words merely stand as his truth, squig?? I can't speak for rb or anyone else here but it gets pretty old to me to hear the same cheerleaders who are funneled masses of special seeds and guarded/held cuts from the breeder then talk down/question/degrade the views and experiences of those who are truly consumers of the >stock< wares.

it is what it is. (his truth, not yours) Give the guy a break.

They certainly can.

I never jumped on the guy to begin with. I jumped on this bullshit subject that people don't understand because frankly they aren't educated enough to.

There, the one time I've ever been truly pedantic on THCFarmer. I've been accused of it enough I might as well play the part of the pedant. I'm certainly capable.

You need to actually know what you're talking about to be right about it--that's sort of a prerequisite to correctness.

It is his personal truth, I'm fine with that. If you'll go back and read my posts--I thanked him for sharing and I meant it.

What I said is there isn't enough information. No amount of crying that, moaning about me being, or wishing that I was wrong will change that.

There isn't enough. It's a fact.

I'm sorry if that hurts his feelings, but this is the actual truth (not just my own personal one).


As I said in the beginning this is about an entire community of people who don't even know the slightest thing about hermaphroditism. They get online and point fingers and make claims, and frankly none of them know what the hell they're talking about.

Excuse me for thinking that someone, somewhere, might want to be clued in to that.

I mean this in the nicest way possible, and don't take this personally sky as its directed at everyone, but people need to learn how to read. I didn't attack the guy once.

I attacked what has been the worldwide "laymen" misunderstanding of this quite scientific issue that we have enough information from science to speak about with some authority. Not absolute or ultimate authority but certainly more than we've been getting for the past 10 years on internet forums.

I realize that you hate Alien's strains bro--and that's fine. Please realize, however, that just as you accuse people of sheltering his strains, so are you biased in the way that you beat the war drum to see them torn down.

Never has that been more clear than here when you put words into my mouth which never came out of it in service to this goal.

In fact, I'd suggest that you're the one on the offensive here.

I said, and let me clarify this for everyone.

1. Thank you to the OP
2. We don't have enough information to say it's the genetics.


Now, you can go ahead and guess all of the stuff you want--but that isn't going to make you any more correct than the armchair experts you decry. It will make you precisely the same as them, in fact.

 

[squiggly]

Also, I'd like to add--if you have something which can overturn ANY of what I've said. Please do the following:

1. Write down your demonstrative facts.

2. Get them peer reviewed.

3. Collect your Nobel Prize.

4. Thank me during the acceptance speech for telling you that you deserve one--clearly you didn't know how awesome you were before I came along.

 

[bonkia]

Was speaking on the other fella--please don't become combative (I'm saying this as a member not a mod--so continue being an angry contrarian if you really want to, you aren't breaking any rules in doing so) .

This is exactly the type of shit I was trying to avoid by flat out telling you guys that you've been conceptualizing hermaphroditism in the wrong way.

You are, and that's final. If you don't believe me--read a book, you are wrong.

I've said my piece, I'll let the members sort it out.

I'm not angry about anything I'm just making statements. As a matter of fact I'm feeling very humble and mello I'm sorry if you felt attacked. I know for a fact that they want to you use more nutes to sell more. Just seems counter productive to screw up people's gardens. But again pls dont ever think I'm attackin you I've gotten lots of information from you and have lots of respect.

 

[bonkia]

With that though in mind though. Do you think an old landrace strain would do this?

 

[squiggly]

With that though in mind though. Do you think an old landrace strain would do this?

Would probably be more likely to in fact. Wild types of virtually all species of dioecious dicots are notorious for hermaphroditic traits.

Remember, they only do this because it helps them to stay alive and propagate in the wild.

We've actually bred a lot of these traits and tendencies OUT of the plants--not the other way around.

No apology needed--I just felt maybe you were getting defensive when it was not my intention to attack ANYONE.

What I am attacking is ignorance. When it comes to hermaphroditism and this community, ignorance is rampant--and it does not need to be.

This, and no other reason, is why I've said all that I've said.

 

[rb420det]

no hurt feelings here fella's aside from a broken heart over my ladies.
given there seems to be the idea that my EC is too high (tho talking maybe 1.5ml / liter diff to the other guy KennyPowers - and I still think it was more than acceptable)... wouldn't the fact that it went hermie over such a minor thing (without showing any other issues) be enough to suggest that the seeds I got were bunk, crappy seed stock etc.?
As for your point about landraces, I have grown a fair few and NEVER had hermies so not sure how those notorious traits correlates to actual growing experience?

 

[waayne]

With that though in mind though. Do you think an old landrace strain would do this?

YES!
bonkia In the 90's I spent about 6 weeks in Burma and Thailand collecting seedstock, I grew most of it out after returning only to find that nearly every pheno male or female,showed some degree of hermaphrodism

Some of the strains I collected and grew from Mexico ,Columbia,Jamaica , Panama,Thailand ,Morocco and Afghanistan from the 70's and 80's had hermaphrodism tendencies as well.......

Some strains did not show any tendencies ,but some definitely did...

 

[squiggly]

no hurt feelings here fella's aside from a broken heart over my ladies.
given there seems to be the idea that my EC is too high (tho talking maybe 1.5ml / liter diff to the other guy KennyPowers - and I still think it was more than acceptable)... wouldn't the fact that it went hermie over such a minor thing (without showing any other issues) be enough to suggest that the seeds I got were bunk, crappy seed stock etc.?
As for your point about landraces, I have grown a fair few and NEVER had hermies so not sure how those notorious traits correlates to actual growing experience?

That's what I figured. You didn't seem to be taking it personally--and that's good because it certainly wasn't meant that way.

In terms of the EC if it hasn't bothered you before then I don't think there's a reason to be alarmed. It's only one strain right?

As I said, you might get a different result if you switch shit up--and who knows maybe you find out that your timer took a shit on you one night and fucked up your light schedule or that your pH took a nasty swing some night and your meter didn't catch it--or was in need of calibration.
Stranger shit has happened, and this is why multiple runs are needed to rule that out.

I would tend to agree with Kenny that usually when we think "hermie prone" and a lot of people are growing from the same stock--that we expect to see it in other instances. LAD is one of the most grown out strains on this dang board though, and I haven't heard this yet. So it seems a bit suspect.

Is it worth your time? Only you can make that choice dude.

I would, however, keep your eyes peeled for issues. I get the impression that you don't need my suggestions to make you do that, though.

As I said, I think you've got your head on pretty straight--I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise.

Moving on.

As for the landraces--when you say this do you mean that you went into the wild and took either seed or cuts and grew these out?

If not, then what you did grow came from a selection--and that could explain why you don't see hermies.

Furthermore, it is now known (more and more with each passing day) that plants can talk to each other. We've known they can do this with terpenes for some time--but now we're seeing more stuff each day, for instance it's been shown that roots can actually talk to each other now too.

In, shall we call them, "landrace environment" plants are often spaced very closely--so who's to say the hermie tendencies we see in the field don't come from this overcrowding.

There are a million hypotheses and none of them I can confirm for you. What i do know is that hermies are the norm and not the exception in dioecious dicots especially in the wild.

 

[bonkia]

Now nanners don't bother me a bit as I've grown strains for years that pop them. How about true herm. Full in boy girl as I have pictured .

 

[rb420det]

ah yeah gotcha. that makes sense. thanks Squig

Yeah if I had unlimited time and space I would run it again straight away as its very suspect to me also... if anyone came to me and reported what I have, I would instantly be picking the shit out of their enviro.
Just the fact that there are 8 other strains in the same environment and only the LAD turned is what has me :( and a bit :S

 

[squiggly]

Now nanners don't bother me a bit as I've grown strains for years that pop them. How about true herm. Full in boy girl as I have pictured .

That's not the definition of a "true herm"

A true hermaphrodite is one that is genetically guaranteed to be a hermie. These result from zygotic and gametic events and are the 0.0000001% rarity that I referenced.

Chances are, that's not what you've pictured. There is no way to tell the difference without genetic testing.