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To Foam Or Not To Foam: Why Isn't My Tea Foaming? Is That Bad?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Capulator
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To Foam Or Not To Foam: Why Isn't My Tea Foaming? Is That Bad?

Capulator 149 Replies 90,191 Views
Page 1 of 8 · Replies 1–20 of 150
#2
Thanks for caring enough to always keep us updated. I've never had huge foam but I know my plants have always liked getting some of your bennies. Looking into the various questions and finding an answer is great customer service!!!
 
#3
Haha someone had to do it...
Wayyy too many questions about foam dictating quality of a tea. I never get foam (EWC, molasses, Humisoil and bennies) and I swear I watered it in Monday morning and Monday evening the plant's leaves were reaching for the light, pointing straight up! Don't see it unless I use your bennies.
 
#5
AHA! I kept looking in different forums to find your section, Capulator. I'm on it.

First a definition of foam fractionation:

Foam fractionation is a chemical process in which hydrophobic molecules are preferentially separated from a liquid solution using rising columns of foam. It is commonly used, albeit on a small scale, for the removal of organic waste from aquariums; these units are known as "protein skimmers". However it has much broader application in the chemical process industry and can be used for the removal of surface active contaminants from waste water streams in addition to the enrichment of bio-products.​
​
The rising column of foam is created in one of two ways, either using a specialized type of airstone that creates 'superfine' bubbles (a wood block, actually) or with what is called a venturi inlet. I won't get into how venturis work unless someone's looking to increase DO levels using one, because people in this context are not looking to make foam.

It is this rising column of bubbles in a bucket that allows foam fractionation to occur when people are brewing aerated compost teas. While the best foam fractionators (aka protein skimmers) are usually very narrow in relation to their volume (volume:surface area), with the goal being contact time in the reaction column, fractionation can occur in many scenarios. For example, ever seen lots of foam built up during or after a windy day near a lake or the ocean? That's fractionation by wind, and it's the same sort of thing--dissolved organic molecules being pulled into the foam because they have hydrophobic ends that 'stick' to the air bubbles.

Now, a picture of a foam fractionator:

FOAM FRACTIONATION fig1


While in this context we don't need a proper skimmer working, I think it's helpful for people to understand both what's happening and to be able to visualize how that can be put to work. I often see folks asking what they should do with the foam that's created after making an ACT, I say put it back in because it's likely got lots of molecules that we want our plants to get.

K... I hope this basic primer explains what's happening well enough. Any questions, feel free to ask. :)

Thanks, Cap!
 
#6
Seamaiden said:
AHA! I kept looking in different forums to find your section, Capulator. I'm on it.

First a definition of foam fractionation:

Foam fractionation is a chemical process in which hydrophobicmolecules are preferentially separated from a liquid solution using rising columns of foam. It is commonly used, albeit on a small scale, for the removal of organic waste from aquariums; these units are known as "protein skimmers". However it has much broader application in the chemical process industry and can be used for the removal of surface active contaminants from waste water streams in addition to the enrichment of bio-products.​
​
The rising column of foam is created in one of two ways, either using a specialized type of airstone that creates 'superfine' bubbles (a wood block, actually) or with what is called a venturi inlet. I won't get into how venturis work unless someone's looking to increase DO levels using one, because people in this context are not looking to make foam.


It is this rising column of bubbles in a bucket that allows foam fractionation to occur when people are brewing aerated compost teas. While the best foam fractionators (aka protein skimmers) are usually very narrow in relation to their volume (volume:surface area), with the goal being contact time in the reaction column, fractionation can occur in many scenarios. For example, ever seen lots of foam built up during or after a windy day near a lake or the ocean? That's fractionation by wind, and it's the same sort of thing--dissolved organic molecules being pulled into the foam because they have hydrophobic ends that 'stick' to the air bubbles.

Now, a picture of a foam fractionator:

View attachment 308442

While in this context we don't need a proper skimmer working, I think it's helpful for people to understand both what's happening and to be able to visualize how that can be put to work. I often see folks asking what they should do with the foam that's created after making an ACT, I say put it back in because it's likely got lots of molecules that we want our plants to get.

K... I hope this basic primer explains what's happening well enough. Any questions, feel free to ask. :)

Thanks, Cap!
Click to expand...


THANK YOU SEA!!!
 
#7
FWIW I scoop my foam up with a gloved hand into a bucket and incorporate it into the compost pile. Rather I used to do this until I started doing smaller runs. Now I have very little foam to deal with.
 
#8
from The Compost Tea Brewing Manual by Elaine Ingham

Foam. The presence of foam on the surface of tea is considered a positive sign, but just means there are free proteins, amino acids or carbohydrates present. This can occur as the result of adding fish hydrolysate, certain organic acids or carbohydrates. If worm compost was used, excessive foam suggests a few earthworms were in the compost and their dead bodies are providing this source of protein/carbohydrate. Excess protein or amino acids should not occur if bacteria are growing well, although dead worms may continue to release proteinaceous materials throughout the brewing cycle. Foam can be suppressed by using organic surfactants, such as yucca or vegetable oil (not olive or canola oil!). Don’t use commercial de- foamers – every single one we have tested kills the organisms in the tea.
 
#9
KennyPowers said:
from The Compost Tea Brewing Manual by Elaine Ingham

Foam. The presence of foam on the surface of tea is considered a positive sign, but just means there are free proteins, amino acids or carbohydrates present. This can occur as the result of adding fish hydrolysate, certain organic acids or carbohydrates. If worm compost was used, excessive foam suggests a few earthworms were in the compost and their dead bodies are providing this source of protein/carbohydrate. Excess protein or amino acids should not occur if bacteria are growing well, although dead worms may continue to release proteinaceous materials throughout the brewing cycle. Foam can be suppressed by using organic surfactants, such as yucca or vegetable oil (not olive or canola oil!). Don’t use commercial de- foamers – every single one we have tested kills the organisms in the tea.
Click to expand...


LOL at yucca acting to suppress foam. Yeah right.
 
#12
From wikipedia.

"Saponins are a class of chemical compounds, one of many secondary metabolites found in natural sources, with saponins found in particular abundance in various plant species. More specifically, they are amphipathic glycosides grouped, in terms of phenomenology, by the soap-like foaming they produce when shaken in aqueous solutions, and, in terms of structure, by their composition of one or more hydrophilic glycoside moieties combined with a lipophilic triterpene derivative."

So the foam from alfalfa (common in tea recipes), which is high in saponins, seems to have little to do with micro-life as stated above. More to do with being shaken.
 
#13
KennyPowers said:
LOL @ disrespecting one of the top researchers of compost teas.
Click to expand...

Biologists get chemistry shit wrong like it's their job--just saying.

Speaking from thorough experience on that one.
In terms of the training they get it's like an English major trying to talk about physics. The only difference being that people tend to lump all scientists together.
Plus the reality is, kenny, that yucca is among the most foam producing things you can add to water. Period.

If you can make a video of you adding yucca extract to a bucket of water, and stirring that bucket with a stick for 20 seconds--not even that vigorously--and show that it didn't produce foam. I will personally send you $100 (okay no I won't, but you get my point).

I won't even ask you to put an air stone in, that'd be too embarassing for Ms. Ingham. Being a respected scientist =/= being right all of the time.

Even Einsten got shit wrong.
 
#16
squiggly said:
Biologists get chemistry shit wrong like it's their job--just saying.

Speaking from thorough experience on that one.
In terms of the training they get it's like an English major trying to talk about physics. The only difference being that people tend to lump all scientists together.
Plus the reality is, kenny, that yucca is among the most foam producing things you can add to water. Period.

If you can make a video of you adding yucca extract to a bucket of water, and stirring that bucket with a stick for 20 seconds--not even that vigorously--and show that it didn't produce foam. I will personally send you $100 (okay no I won't, but you get my point).

I won't even ask you to put an air stone in, that'd be too embarassing for Ms. Ingham. Being a respected scientist =/= being right all of the time.

Even Einsten got shit wrong.
Click to expand...
einstein got everything wrong...........he stole all the work he's famous for the published it before the real scientist that he stole it from lol........take it easy
 
#17
Has anyone just used a few drops of oil, canola or olive or sunflower or corn or peanut or even JMS Stylets oil? My teas don't foam unless I forget about them, for the most part, so I haven't had a chance to try any of those things. It works in a pot of boiling pasta, I know that. :D
KennyPowers said:
LOL @ disrespecting one of the top researchers of compost teas.
Click to expand...
Her topness as a researcher is debatable, depending on whom you ask. If you ask Microbeman, he'll debate much of what she's written and he'll assert that he's got the scope time to back it up. ;)
Dr Stupid said:
From wikipedia.

"Saponins are a class of chemical compounds, one of many secondary metabolites found in natural sources, with saponins found in particular abundance in various plant species. More specifically, they are amphipathic glycosides grouped, in terms of phenomenology, by the soap-like foaming they produce when shaken in aqueous solutions, and, in terms of structure, by their composition of one or more hydrophilic glycoside moieties combined with a lipophilic triterpene derivative."

So the foam from alfalfa (common in tea recipes), which is high in saponins, seems to have little to do with micro-life as stated above. More to do with being shaken.
Click to expand...
That sounds more like it, although saponins will 'foam' in absence of air bubbles, I've found that stuff like quinoa (everything is now being sold already washed, btw, which is a problem/pain for me, I was using my rinse water a lot) only needs the slightest agitation in water to start creating foam, whereas what's often happening in these teas, often in absence of alfalfa, is likely fractionation as I posted about above. And, again, it's likely rather high in nutrients since it's comprised of dissolved organic molecules.
 
#18
Dr Stupid said:
So the foam from alfalfa (common in tea recipes), which is high in saponins, seems to have little to do with micro-life as stated above. More to do with being shaken.
Click to expand...

Sorry for the self quote. When I said "above" I should have stated it was in regard to Capulator's assertion that "no foam = no worries". What I was trying to say is alfalfa foam is not hard to achieve or high in micro-life. You can get huge amounts of foam in a hurry, with just alfalfa and water. Yucca is also high in saponins fwiw.

I have to wonder if some yucca extracts, or other common extracts, contain oil while others don't. That might be why Elaine Ingham stated it can inhibit foam. Just thinking out loud.


Seamaiden said:
That sounds more like it, although saponins will 'foam' in absence of air bubbles, I've found that stuff like quinoa (everything is now being sold already washed, btw, which is a problem/pain for me, I was using my rinse water a lot) only needs the slightest agitation in water to start creating foam, whereas what's often happening in these teas, often in absence of alfalfa, is likely fractionation as I posted about above. And, again, it's likely rather high in nutrients since it's comprised of dissolved organic molecules.
Click to expand...

I agree.:cool: It seems the foam you referred to is a separate, and more important, piece of the puzzle.
 
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