The Charts--Helpful charts for making nutrient deficiency diagnoses

[Smoking Gun]

ok so a few chemistry questions.?
given these facts...
ammonium toxicity is more prevalent in acidic soils
nitrate toxicity is more prevalent in alkaline soils

if ammonium is NH4NO3 and ammonia is NH3 and nitrate is NO3

what enters the plant?
by what mechanism?
at what point does ammonium nitrate separate into ammonia, nitrate, nitric acid and one of several alkali metalic nitrates

reason for this...when i brew PSG (peruvian seabird guano) the odor changes dependent upon how long its been brewing and at times there is such a strong ammonia smell that it really makes me question when to use it.

another chemistry question, on the charts above on post #90 in soil Ca and Mg are locked out below 6.4. What do they bond with and become?

Let's start with ammonium, it is NH4 not NH4NO3, that is ammonium nitrate. So ammonium does not dissociate and give off a nitrate and ammonia. This may begin to clear up some of your confusion. As for when they go from one form to another is not a simple answer. There are many points in the cycle where nitrogen may be in one form or another and then change back. It is all dependent on the activity of microbes and the plants roots while in the soil and where in the metabolic process the nitrogen is within the plants cells. Other than this Natural's post from Wikipedia is pretty accurate.

As for your tea smelling bad, that is usually due to the activity of anaerobic bacteria. It sounds like you are not providing enough oxygen to the tea or you are brewing for too long. You should not be brewing tea for more than 48 hours and ideally should be used within 24 hours of brewing.

Mg and Ca are in the same period, Alkaline Earth Metals, and therefore will react very similarly to one another. The will both bond to just about any element or ion looking to share an electron. This is part of why both can easily become unavailable for plants if pH or nutrient levels swings out of balance.

 

[toquer]

i never said the tea smelled bad... it smells good, it changes dependent upon temperature and time of day. At times it smells of pure ammonia, like open the bottle in the laundry room and it's the same smell. then other times its much sweeter. There is a chemical change taking place between ammonium and ammonium nitrate as these two molecules are both in solution at the same time dependent upon the entropy in the entire system. I'm just wondering what the change is and how it is happening. It just might be temperate dependent as the compost tea sits in the trash can on a concrete floor. So my thoughts progress as i've read further, thanks for the wiki, i read that yesterday as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_cycle

There's a good explanation with some helpful pictures. This ought to give me the answers i'm wanting. not as it's going to change much, just wanted a further understanding of the mechanism.

 

[Seamaiden]

I believe that what you're smelling is the ammonia offgassing, just like I would smell when I went to clean my horses' stalls during winter when they were spending 24hrs/day locked up in the stalls. Pull the shavings back, expose the urine spots and WHAM! Lime was what counteracted it.

ok so a few chemistry questions.?
given these facts...
ammonium toxicity is more prevalent in acidic soils
nitrate toxicity is more prevalent in alkaline soils

if ammonium is NH4NO3 and ammonia is NH3 and nitrate is NO3

what enters the plant?
by what mechanism?
at what point does ammonium nitrate separate into ammonia, nitrate, nitric acid and one of several alkali metalic nitrates

reason for this...when i brew PSG (peruvian seabird guano) the odor changes dependent upon how long its been brewing and at times there is such a strong ammonia smell that it really makes me question when to use it.

another chemistry question, on the charts above on post #90 in soil Ca and Mg are locked out below 6.4. What do they bond with and become?

I thought ammonium was NH4+ and ammonia was NH3, so seeing nitrate (NO3) attached to ammonium is confusing for me. Honestly, we needs the squigginator on this question.

@squiggly !!

When you smell ammonia, you're basically smelling nitrogen going into the atmosphere and for me that's counterproductive. How long are you brewing the guano? I would only do a few hours, not a full 24, unless your goal is an extraction and then I would enclose the container, and further probably try introducing some non-disease causing microbes.

 

[Smoking Gun]

I thought ammonium was NH4+ and ammonia was NH3, so seeing nitrate (NO3) attached to ammonium is confusing for me. Honestly, we needs the squigginator on this question.

You are 100% correct here. Nothing to be confused about. NH4NO3 is ammonium nitrate.

 

[toquer]

When you smell ammonia, you're basically smelling nitrogen going into the atmosphere and for me that's counterproductive. How long are you brewing the guano? I would only do a few hours, not a full 24, unless your goal is an extraction and then I would enclose the container, and further probably try introducing some non-disease causing microbes.

The PSG (10-10-2) comes as pellets that take about 24 hours to break down in water to even start the process. After that add molasses, OGBioWar Rootpack, EWC, Alfalfa meal and let it brew for the week while it is being used. Use is about .25 to .5 gallon per 5 gallon of water. A new brew is started weekly. This is the transition phase compost tea.

I think it is way to high in nitrogen to be honest and needs to be cut back before the stretch phase finishes, but my colleague here disagrees with me. So we are trying to determine exactly what it is breaking down into.

As for the odor going bad, that takes just over a week this time of year and just under a week in the summer. Again another pointer to the reactions taking place at a much higher rate with more energy in the system, but that stands to reason. Also a factor to this is the amount of each ingredient. With more sugar it lasts longer. The alfalfa meal isn't always used either as sometimes it's just oatmeal that we toss in there.

 

[Natural]

The PSG (10-10-2) comes as pellets that take about 24 hours to break down in water to even start the process. After that add molasses, OGBioWar Rootpack, EWC, Alfalfa meal and let it brew for the week while it is being used. Use is about .25 to .5 gallon per 5 gallon of water. A new brew is started weekly. This is the transition phase compost tea.

I think it is way to high in nitrogen to be honest and needs to be cut back before the stretch phase finishes, but my colleague here disagrees with me. So we are trying to determine exactly what it is breaking down into.

As for the odor going bad, that takes just over a week this time of year and just under a week in the summer. Again another pointer to the reactions taking place at a much higher rate with more energy in the system, but that stands to reason. Also a factor to this is the amount of each ingredient. With more sugar it lasts longer. The alfalfa meal isn't always used either as sometimes it's just oatmeal that we toss in there.

Ok..after some searching I found some info on a prolonged anaerobic tea...
Anaerobic Conditions
Anaerobic teas are much less clearly defined than for aerobic tea. Sometimes compost tea may become
anaerobic for only a few minutes, for a few hours, or sometimes for days or weeks. Brief anaerobic periods
may increase diversity, if the aerobic organisms are not destroyed or put-to-sleep. Prolonged anaerobic
conditions mean that many organisms will become inactive or die, and that nutrients will be lost.

Anaerobic tea will not replenish the full soil food web, nor can it be a nutrient supplier. Anaerobic teas add
only anaerobic bacteria and yeasts. Leaf surfaces are aerobic environments, and anaerobic organisms do
not stay active nor will they perform their functions in aerobic environments. An anaerobic tea applied to
an aerobic environment may provide a physical barrier, for a short time, but that is the only function it
provides from a food web point of view.

Filamentous fungi that build soil structure and hold nutrients are lost, or become dormant, when conditions
become anaerobic. Aerobic bacteria that make micro-aggregates go into dormant stages in anaerobic
conditions, and therefore soil structure will not be maintained. Protozoa, nematodes and microarthropods
die in conditions that rapidly become anaerobic. Nutrient cycling will therefore no longer occur. in anaerobic conditions, nutrients are lost through volatilization, because major nutrients are converted to
gaseous forms in reduced oxygen, conditions. When you smell ammonia, rotten egg, vinegar, putrid, or
sour smells, pH is dropping, alcohol is being produced, and N, S, and P are lost as gases.

Anaerobic tea production parameters are still largely undefined, leaving us without a working knowledge of how to
predict whether the tea will “work”, or not.

 

[KUSHPILES]

Can anyone identify this problem? Several of my plants are showing this right now, thanks.

 

[squiggly]

I believe that what you're smelling is the ammonia offgassing, just like I would smell when I went to clean my horses' stalls during winter when they were spending 24hrs/day locked up in the stalls. Pull the shavings back, expose the urine spots and WHAM! Lime was what counteracted it.

I thought ammonium was NH4+ and ammonia was NH3, so seeing nitrate (NO3) attached to ammonium is confusing for me. Honestly, we needs the squigginator on this question.

@squiggly !!

When you smell ammonia, you're basically smelling nitrogen going into the atmosphere and for me that's counterproductive. How long are you brewing the guano? I would only do a few hours, not a full 24, unless your goal is an extraction and then I would enclose the container, and further probably try introducing some non-disease causing microbes.

NH4+ = Ammonium ion.
NH3 = Ammonia

(similar to H2O = dihydrogen monoxide, H3O+ = hydronium ion.

Generally ium means it's an ion.

Ammonium nitrate is simply a salt made up of an ammonium cation and a nitrate anion.

NO3 has a -1 charge. So it's just an ionic bond like NaCl or another salt.

 

[growchick421]

View attachment 394642 View attachment 394643 View attachment 394644 Can anyone identify this problem? Several of my plants are showing this right now, thanks.

That looks like you have a muncher eating away the tender under side of the leaf. Bugs that will do this are little guys like thrips. I have seen this destruction in green houses on veggie plants.

 

[Natural]

View attachment 394642 View attachment 394643 View attachment 394644 Can anyone identify this problem? Several of my plants are showing this right now, thanks.

That doesn't look like bug damage to me..certainly not thrips.
It could be from something in your foliar like Iron or a salt. Could be a PH problem with your nutes. You could be using too much P and not enough Mag. I have no idea your regiment...I'd toss a pix up in the infirmary so folks can get a better feel for the conditions.

 

[wobbly goblin]

look around for a inchworm

fwiw

 

[growchick421]

That doesn't look like bug damage to me..certainly not thrips.
It could be from something in your foliar like Iron or a salt. Could be a PH problem with your nutes. You could be using too much P and not enough Mag. I have no idea your regiment...I'd toss a pix up in the infirmary so folks can get a better feel for the conditions.

Only reason I say a bug of some sort, similar to trips, cause it looks like the underside meat of the leaf looks scraped off in layers or "ice cream scoop" bites.
Quite likely you see something I don't know about :shy:. Just hope kushpiles gets it fixed.:rolleyes:

 

[Natural]

Only reason I say a bug of some sort, similar to trips, cause it looks like the underside meat of the leaf looks scraped off in layers or "ice cream scoop" bites.
Quite likely you see something I don't know about :shy:. Just hope kushpiles gets it fixed.:rolleyes:

I'm assumin kushpiles is indoors..outside there could be too many critters to narrow down. The thrips marks are real distinct..takes having them to never forget them.:facepalm: Most common grow room type pests leave damage that is fairly distinct from each other..which is nice. Sometimes an odd critter will get in that takes time identifying. Usually though, if it is that, you find holes in your leaves or little chunks completely missing. My next guess would be some kind of rust or leaf-spot..but that is rare compared to nutrient or bug problems. Never had an inchworm indoors..but, could very well be a possibility, although I would think he would do much more damage than what is shown...maybe he got stoned and is just camping out? Good luck KUSHPILES

 

[KUSHPILES]

Posted info in the infirmary, thanks.

 

[growchick421]

Lol stoned bugs... I have seen many a stoned to death bug in the greenhouse. I have wondered how present dieting that way (if u were a bug) would be? Hahaha... it's late and finally get to sit down smoke dabs/new volcano and watch new GoT:)... :inpain:... :woot:...:dead:

 

[SierraFarmer]

Figures in green are the sweet spot, yellow and red are out of range.

View attachment 365647

I like to keep my spaces around 1.22

So it ideal to keep your temperature and humidity in the dark green ranges. Is it bad to be in the red? During the day my greenhouse is about 75-78 and RH is around 50%. RH outside is about 12-14% where I live, so it's hard to keep RH about 50%.

 

[SierraFarmer]

So it ideal to keep your temperature and humidity in the dark green ranges. Is it bad to be in the red? During the day my greenhouse is about 75-78 and RH is around 50%. RH outside is about 12-14% where I live, so it's hard to keep RH about 50%.

Lol answered my own question when I saw the top line of the other post. Sorry

 

[dirk d]

thanks for posting all these charts seamaiden. I had the leaf diagnostic chart blown and laminated so i can put it in my rooms. However the res is very low. anyone have a high res version of the leaf diagnostic chart??

 

[Seamaiden]

No, but it would be good to have a high resolution version. Perhaps someone versed in Adobe or Photoshop could please help us out on that, eh?

 

[growchick421]

Are there charts that have the optimal numbers for all mediums from hydro to soil, including coco and peat moss mix??