Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

[ilaughlast]

i am not attempting this as part of a strain hoarding endeavor. i am trying this to figure out if mother stock of rare plants can be saved rather than ditched

 

[UNITEDGROOVES]

it isnt a breeding thing or even dna/rna altering


the fact is fusarium attacks the plant by overloading if with specific homones and acids. It attacks the cell walls, essentially taking all our prized genetics and ripping them down to their main frame as a 5% thc yielding hemp plant.

It is not gentic drift
It is not TMV
And it is not permanent

Is this just a thought or do you have any test results to back this up?

 

[obsoul33t]

true but it would lend us a clue as to how to solve this probl;em in cultivars that would otherwise be lost.

the key will be a battle at the microbial level .. beneficial microbes v the bad guys .. perhaps some new engineered species of microbe... but i hope they hurry up lol

 

[true grit]

me and @We Solidarity are on the same water @true grit

120 ppm or .2 ec out the tap.

Ya sounds really good ppm wise, but betting things that cause this wouldn't be measured by ppm. Plenty of mountain folks that won't eat fish outta the mountain flowing rivers. Just bouncing it out there since some folks know there local water isn't great/consistent wasn't sure if yalls might be the same.

Last couple duds i got, homies said they have poor or inconsistent water. Not sure if its related but some invisible thing causing duds could def be in the water as Bluzboy stated too. We had talked about this in another thread- possible pathogens. Someone who has the issues get a UV filter and test it out will ya? :)

The genetic drift most have mentioned is not saying that genetics are drifting and causing duds. Its that many of the strains over years of poor cloning, poor health/mother practice, and not improving clone quality can lead to plants that are plain more susceptible to things they shouldn't be. Not saying it is that, but it sure isn't helping.

 

[We Solidarity]

it isnt a breeding thing or even dna/rna altering


the fact is fusarium attacks the plant by overloading if with specific homones and acids. It attacks the cell walls, essentially taking all our prized genetics and ripping them down to their main frame as a 5% thc yielding hemp plant.

It is not gentic drift
It is not TMV
And it is not permanent

Figure 25. Healthy 'Mandalay' chrysanthemum (left) and plant infected with Fusarium oxysporumf. sp. chrysanthemi (right) which exhibits stunting without other observable symptoms. (Courtesy Penn State Univ.)


source: https://www.apsnet.org/edcenter/intropp/topics/Pages/PlantDiseaseDiagnosis.aspx




It would appear we are dealing with fusarium.

Tests should be in this week to conclude if there are any other pathogens present in soil or plant tissue but at this point I'm convinced fusarium is to blame.

 

[ilaughlast]

if i could get my hands on a confirmed dud i would perform either an ELISA (old technique) or a PCR to determine a virus or if needed a host of other pathogen tests through a lab here locally. after i retrieved the cut from t.c. i would perform the test again

 

[hammerhead]

Are you guys getting dud's from different strains???? This is the 1st time I have read that others have got dud's in different strains other then the GG#4 cut people got at the LA Cup..

 

[DowNwithDirT]

the key will be a battle at the microbial level .. beneficial microbes v the bad guys .. perhaps some new engineered species of microbe... but i hope they hurry up lol

this........

although its nothing new....

Glomus Intradices helps
Bacillius Subtilis helps

certain marine algea can help

azospirillum brasilense would be beneficial due to its nitrogen fixing aspets

cleanliness. Spraying of nopolar alcohols and oils will help keep contaminations down.

The research is out there and already done its about implementing it and really more understanding what it is we are dealing with.......

It has personally been exacerbated in my system by:
overwatering coco
letting plants get tooooooo root bound
improper cleanliness in cloning and overall drip system/trays/water holding areas etc.....

I have successfully reverted my sour d from complete dud and whats funny is as a dud the tmv blotching dissapeared, and as soon as it started to actually look like sour d again the blotching showed up........

 

[nightmarecreature]

i have a theory i would like to test.
freshly divided primordial undifferentiated apical meristem cells as they emerge are free from the host plants viruses in most cases.
these cells as they emerge are said to be free of the host plants pathogens for dozens of hours.
in strawberry nursery stock, it is the standard for clearing viruses and other pathogens to perform a special type of in vitro tissue culture called MICROtip culture.
you may be familiar with MACROtip tissue culture and have likely seen the home tissue culture kits for sale online.
this is not quite the same however very similar. this requires a very small sample (<1mm) of just the emerging cells of the meristem. it is usually done by someone with practice in this precision cut done under at least 80x magnification. the explant is then sterilized and placed in culture in a medium containing shoot induction hormones in a petri dish much like a macrotip culture. the incubation time is much longer and is therefore much more susceptible to infection/contamination of petris. while this is fairly impractical at home it can be done in a lab setting by a trained tech with the right equipment and knowledge of protocols.
i think if this is a pathogen from bms be it viral fungal bacterial etc it could be cleared and resume regular growth given it is reintroduced to a clean environment. i am currently trying to locate a confirmed dud by a reliable source with an intimate knowledge of the syndrome on which i can conduct this experiment and feel confident im working with the correct problem and not a new growers poor growing style instead of the actual duds.

thoughts?

Yes, I plan on using Meristem Tissue cultures. Here's a picture to get an idea on how it works. Even if I can't figure out what is causing it, I can at least fix the problem. All my strains are going into tissue culture. Everything will be killed off and sterilized.

Some symptoms. Random leaf twisting.

Pictures of my past work with my flow hood and agar cultures.

Pictures of my old flow hood when it was unfinished.

New flow hood that is getting built, it's unfinished.

 

[DowNwithDirT]

fussarium oxysporum was specifically developed to eradicate drug crops .. i don't have the links on this computer but it was developed in the 60's at a biotech lab in montana and then in the 70's uc berkeley reported success in the mass production of fussarium oxysporum for an engineered bio-weapon against drug crops.. fast forward to modern times uc santa cruz professor examines chemtrail content and reports weaponized fussarium oxysporum as a part of the spray content.. effect to californias food production expected to top a 30% reduction says uc santa cruz professor.
my prediction is that we will see this problem get far worse and then gmo fussarium resistant cannabis wont be far behind .... wait until a few huge investors lose a few 1000 light grows they will beg for gmo'ed weed ...

i have seen this problem for nearly 20 years it is not new but it is spreading faster because of the practice of trading cuts and the shear number of green rushers ...

woah........ sketch


form what I understand there is no need to do what you all are talking about as you can get ahead of the infection via good plant health and only taking cuttings from top of plant chasing it away.

 

[nightmarecreature]

Only the meristem is infection free.

Why? When I can use clones that are free of PM, pathogens, bugs, viruses, ect. TC clones are proven to cure Run out AKA Genetic Drift. I can back up 1000's of strains in a tiny space using only using a 40 watt fluoro. This is going to be the future of growing.

 

[DowNwithDirT]

@squiggly where you at?

 

[nightmarecreature]

TC can restore vigor and yield in old strains!

http://www.tytyga.com/Tissue-Cultur...erries-Raspberries-and-Blackberries-a/435.htm

 

[DowNwithDirT]

The first Agent Green fungus is Fusarium oxysporum, a family of “wilting” fungi whose species attack everything from corn and cotton to basil to watermelon. The anti-coca fungus species, Fusarium Oxysporum f. sp. Erythroxyli, was discovered accidentally when it wiped out a test plot of coca being grown in Hawaii. From that strain, the US Department of Agriculture (USDA) developed the strain “Isolate EN-4,” which is supposed to attack only the coca plant, and which the US and UN want to spray extensively in Colombia.

The use of fusarium oxysporum to eradicate marijuana in Florida was proposed in 1999, and was soundly rejected by state officials as being a threat to the environment and agriculture. Secretary of the Florida Department of Environmental Protection David Struhs wrote in an April 6, 1999 letter:

Fusarium species are capable of evolving rapidly... Mutagenicity is by far the most disturbing factor in attempting to use a Fusarium species as a bioherbicide. It is difficult, if not impossible, to control the spread of Fusarium species. The mutated fungi can cause disease in a large number of crops, including tomatoes, peppers, flowers, corn and vines, and are normally considered a threat to farmers as a pest, rather than as a pesticide. Fusarium species are more active in warm soils and can stay resident in the soil for years.
Despite the Florida rejection, the US and UN went ahead with plans to pressure the Colombian government to use the fungus. The Clinton administration at one point tried to tie a $1.3 billion aid package to Colombian government approval of the fungus, and only backed off under considerable international pressure.

In October 2000, the Colombian government formally rejected this portion of the US/UN “Plan Colombia,” which also includes ongoing widespread spraying of glyphosate, the active ingredient in Monsanto’s “Roundup.” Colombian Environment Minister Juan Mayr said, “The government consulted national experts on the subject and decided not to agree to test the fungus because it felt that any agent foreign to the country’s native ecosystem could pose a serious risk to the environment and to human health.” Colombia’s neighbors, Peru and Ecuador, have also expressed concern about the proposed use of the fungus causing them ecological and agricultural damage.

The Colombian government’s position does not make this a closed issue, though. Companies such as Ag/Bio Con Inc., which holds a patent on the process of attaching the fungus to seeds for aerial dispersal, may be expected to keep the issue alive. Ag/Bio Con Inc. is headed by Dr. David Sands who worked on fusarium oxysporum at Montana State University for the USDA. The USDA has already invested at least $23 million in this research. The UNDCP has not dropped its endorsement of the plan. The spraying plan in Colombia does, however, appear to be at least dormant at the present.

 

[DowNwithDirT]

Dispersal: A variety of different dispersal methods have been suggested. The most direct form would be aerial spraying of the spores. The lead US researcher that developed the EN-4 strain, David Sands, proposed to equip large transport aircraft to spray tons of F. oxysporum spores from specialized equipment attached to the bottom of the plane.
The idea to disperse the agent from a high altitude is intended to blanket large areas and to avoid ground-based gunfire. Forced eradication efforts – especially in war situations such as in Colombia or some Central Asian areas – are likely to meet armed resistance, and several chemical eradication pilots have been killed in the past. Sands favours spraying huge areas where coca is currently grown and, as a preventative measure, over areas where coca could be sown

 

[ilaughlast]

Yes, I plan on using Meristem Tissue cultures. Here's a picture to get an idea on how it works. Even if I can't figure out what is causing it, I can at least fix the problem. All my strains are going into tissue culture. Everything will be killed off and sterilized.
View attachment 407911


Some symptoms. Random leaf twisting.
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Pictures of my past work with my flow hood and agar cultures.
View attachment 407919
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View attachment 407924
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Pictures of my old flow hood when it was unfinished.
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New flow hood that is getting built, it's unfinished. View attachment 407933

very nice i think its the only way to at the very least preserve infected strains. id love to hear what results you get. thanks for sharing your set up. very cool. im glad that others are working on this as a solution too.

 

[ilaughlast]

i think at this phase of the game it is important to identify ways to overcome this syndrome and i think in time it will help to pinpoint the cuae of the symptoms. by showing how to eliminate it we will also be eliminating possible causes. for instance genetic drift or other genetic mutations would prove incorrect if this form of cloning eliminated it. it would point to a narrower set of causes. if macrotip culture didnt work but microtip did we could then examine possible pathogens that would follow that trend and infer that it is probably a virus,or maybe that it is not. nightmare creature i am super excited to see your work progress. thank you.

 

[nightmarecreature]

very nice i think its the only way to at the very least preserve infected strains. id love to hear what results you get. thanks for sharing your set up. very cool. im glad that others are working on this as a solution too.

I'll be making a thread on it. It's been in the works after talking to a few Farmers, prior to this thread.

 

[DowNwithDirT]

I wonder if this is more common in soil beds or in reused soil vs single plant containers and fresh soil.im not sure of everyones grow methods here but it doesn't seem to be a lot of hydro guys talking about this?

it is less common in soil in general.........go back and read bro...

 

[nightmarecreature]

well because you said to,i did go back and read lol.do you see a lot of hydro growers in this thread with this problem?the ones I see pics of are in soil, coco or beds of some variation.other than cap who else has had this dud problem in hydro?
someone posted tissue culture of what looks like mushrooms and theres a page of tc talk and a page of speculation of tmv.but a couple mottled leaves,twisted growth,or larfy buds could be many things.dalae632 has actual duds where some plants just had one or two branches that def look full on dud.i just think some guys are calling poorly grown plants duds where other growers who have great looking rooms with just a few plants that have an obvious new problem.im just curious at this point,i don't do cuts and I grow outdoors.but I do start my plants indoors and I def want to avoid this dud issue if possible.but I have been around forums and read a lot of big room threads.maybe some guys are keeping marginal cuts or runt seedlings that would be culled by other guys and trying to grow those runts full term and a dud is the result?seen a few big grows here,jackmayoffer or waayne have these duds? or maybe those guys spot them early on and cull them as runts and never seen a dud on chop day? maybe with all the complaints on the net about fungus gnats in soil and coco these companies started using something chemically to combat the bugs that are affecting certain strains idk,

You also forget that a lot of us have the exact same clone only's. Some of us grow in Soil,Coco and Hydro at the same time. Poorly grown, by some of the best people in the game, I don't think so. They have been growing for decades. Outdoor plants don't have this problem because the Sun weakens any virus or fungus. There is no doubt, this is a Virus or fungus or possibly a combination of both.
A fungus can be seen with a microscope and some slides. I'll be looking at that next. A Virus is much harder to detect. It could be a new virus. Just like HIV in the late 70's, it was not discovered till about 1982. It's impossible to test for something that is untestable, if it's something new.