Organic Pest Prevention

[DrFever]

Personally i think the best deterrent for pest is cover crops of pest resistant plants such as chives , citronella etc and most importantly a strong healhy plant to begin with so this means a really good soil full of life where the microbes and plant combat for which controls insect protection in plants just like in nature only the strong survive same thing applies for plants
for the life of me i cannot figure out even if a plant is infested with insects why anyone would even try to use a organic pesticide , Yes even organic farms USE chems for insecticides ,
to achieve what ???? you got insects deal with them now one or 2 applications of chem and problem solved or 10 -20 applications of some organic witch craft brew and still maybe have them ..
Not only have you stressed plant 10 - 20 times more you made them weaker its bad enough when a person see's insects cause by that time they saw them the insects surely are 4 - 6 th generation and been feeding on the plant for sometime now
People got to snap out of it that just because your growing organic means you cannot use chemicals to treat infestation i find that retarded you got insects get rid of them the sure way end of story

 

[ArcticOrange]

Let me know how smoking chemicals goes. I prefer my CNS undamaged.

 

[DrFever]

what you think one application of chemical pesticide is going to make a difference in taste lol here end of october 6 plus mnths with o nutrients only rain water ( REal Organic growing ) and plant is still kicking night temps - 6 day time 15 first frost last night ground was frozen this morning guess what .. shes staying out there till mid nov I do not even have to worry about mold shit what is mold ???
not one insect damage at all this year ,, must be from having a strong healthy plant and good micro life to begin with i guess

 

[ArcticOrange]

Nah all I'm saying is take organic preventative measures, make strong healthy plants in good environments and don't have the problem in the first place. I'm not worried about chemicals effecting flavor I'm worried about what they'll do to me and others I share with. Read the msds and err on the side of caution.

Those are some pretty ladies by the way.

 

[DrFever]

Nah all I'm saying is take organic preventative measures, make strong healthy plants in good environments and don't have the problem in the first place. I'm not worried about chemicals effecting flavor I'm worried about what they'll do to me and others I share with. Read the msds and err on the side of caution.

Those are some pretty ladies by the way.

I here you the air we breath is polluted food we eat is polluted Fat is no good for you Now studies say FAT is good for you where does it all end right i am not here to say one way is better then another ,, but the fact remains is which is better one applications to rid insect issue or 10 - 20 applications
Is what its all about don't be mis lead into thinking by adding chemical insecticide that it will be poison to you,, i look at it like if it was that bad then the plant would die from it but does it ???
To each there own i will in fact use what ever is necessary to get rid of insects now not in couple weeks when damage is even worse and it will not impact final results once there dead nothing wrong with a good plant bath right

 

[Seamaiden]

Honestly, gentlemen, what does *any* of this have to do with the question at hand here? If you don't wish to use any type of 'cide' then don't, simple as that. But the original question posed is a good question and I see no problem for its being asked.

Personally i think the best deterrent for pest is cover crops of pest resistant plants such as chives , citronella etc and most importantly a strong healhy plant to begin with so this means a really good soil full of life where the microbes and plant combat for which controls insect protection in plants just like in nature only the strong survive same thing applies for plants
for the life of me i cannot figure out even if a plant is infested with insects why anyone would even try to use a organic pesticide , Yes even organic farms USE chems for insecticides ,
to achieve what ???? you got insects deal with them now one or 2 applications of chem and problem solved or 10 -20 applications of some organic witch craft brew and still maybe have them ..
Not only have you stressed plant 10 - 20 times more you made them weaker its bad enough when a person see's insects cause by that time they saw them the insects surely are 4 - 6 th generation and been feeding on the plant for sometime now
People got to snap out of it that just because your growing organic means you cannot use chemicals to treat infestation i find that retarded you got insects get rid of them the sure way end of story

Also trap plants have great utility.

You're not considering some very real issues here when making those statements. I'm a market gardener, I supplement our income with sales of veggies and eggs. One year I planted a large crop of specialty Brassica, Romanescu broccoli. I hadn't heard of cabbage aphids. Until I got them. Bad. Look it up, they're like root aphids but they infest every curd of the head, absolutely everything. I lost the entire crop, it was unsalvageable. 30lbs at least, that I didn't get to sell because you can't sell food full of crunchy gritty bugs. Did you know that there really *are* no organic options for eradication or control? If I'd known about them when I planted the crops, THEN I could have done the buried row covers thing, but once established there was nothing for me, and that's for organic production.

So, what does someone do who's relying entirely on that crop? And I am curious what chemical pesticides you're referring to as well. When you ask, "To achieve what?" you're ignoring the whole point, IMO. To achieve a saleable crop, of course.

 

[symbiote420]

Before pic..... it got worse but this is the only pic I have of it heading south. This was on Oct 13, I began feeding with the product the on 15th

Today, 10 days later and after I really hacked her up quite a bit. Just started week 2 and got it's 2nd feeding!

 

[Dutch420grow]

Some good info I've dug up...think Coots came up with this..i could be wrong

Maybe sharing different approaches will be helpful for everyone, i.e. taking a different look at making the best use of the materials you have to work with.
Neem (or Karanja) products are at the center of my IPM program. Neem meal (aka cake) is used in the soil mix and I also use it to make a tea in conjunction with kelp meal. As a bio-nutrient accumulator, neem meal is on par with the heavies like alfalfa, kelp, comfrey, borage, stinging nettles, etc. and what distinguishes one from another are the unique compounds that they create. Only brown kelp species create Alginic acid &Mannitol. Alfalfa creates Triacontanol but Comfrey does not and so on and so on.
Neem creates over 360 compounds of which around 30 function as a pesticide and/or fungicide. So with this one material I have two problems covered. Another compound that we want to see in our soil is an enzyme called Chitinase (Pronounced Kite-In-A's) Many organisms create this enzyme including bacteria. The reason that we add crab meal is for the Chitin (Kite-In) As bacteria degrade this polysaccharide this enzyme is created and it's this enzyme that gives us the pesticide benefit - not the Chitin directly.
Well, in my studies I learned that sprouted seeds release this enzyme that was encoded by the parent plant. So besides the enzymes that enhance the resin levels, the enzymes teas play a role as a growth regulator by degrading the eggs preventing the larva from maturing. (see our barley product for more info on DIY cheap enzyme teas that you can make yourself.)
I also top-dress the containers with a mix of chopped leaves with vermicompost. Plants that I've used successfully include comfrey, borage, peppermint, spearmint, oregano, rosemary, thyme, stinging nettles and always a bit of neem meal. Having that layer prevents a number of problems as far as insects & equally important the powdery mildew curse in the PNW. (CC lives in the Pacific North West)
I also make fresh teas using different plant leaves - lavender, spearmint, peppermint, oregano, thyme, borage, comfrey and my new favorite, yarrow. In fact when I spray with neem oil rather than mixing with plain water I use a botanical tea in its place. Some of the compounds in these leaves will kill on contact whereas neem oil does not. It works in a completely different way so by using botanical teas as the base you're getting a double whammy against the invaders.
Besides spraying above the soil I also lightly mist the top of the soil with any combination that I mentioned.
Powdery Mildew free since 2009 and as close as you can get to being free of Spider Mites in the PNW for over 2 years. The results speaks for itself.

 

[Seamaiden]

You can also get chitinase from insect frass, it's far less smelly and won't shift pH the way crab meal can. ;)

AND, if you're into it, it's a vegan source. 2-2-2+

I don't use neem at all, and won't add it back after learning what I have from my extract professionals. I can't stand the odor, either.

 

[Dutch420grow]

You don't use neem oil or neem cake?

 

[Seamaiden]

Nope.

 

[Sirtiva]

Can you elaborate on your extract professional's disdain for neem?

 

[Patanjali]

You can also get chitinase from insect frass, it's far less smelly and won't shift pH the way crab meal can. ;)

AND, if you're into it, it's a vegan source. 2-2-2+

I don't use neem at all, and won't add it back after learning what I have from my extract professionals. I can't stand the odor, either.

I'd be curious what you learned from your extract professionals that you won't use neem?

Peace!

P-

 

[Ecompost]

Thought you might enjoy this in light of the thread topic

 

[Ecompost]

You can also get chitinase from insect frass, it's far less smelly and won't shift pH the way crab meal can. ;)

AND, if you're into it, it's a vegan source. 2-2-2+

I don't use neem at all, and won't add it back after learning what I have from my extract professionals. I can't stand the odor, either.

its powerful and likely carries in to finished product impacting terps etc, possibly disrupts pathways relating to flavour and sugar uptake and shelf life I heard but I aint an extract pro

 

[Ecompost]

Honestly, gentlemen, what does *any* of this have to do with the question at hand here? If you don't wish to use any type of 'cide' then don't, simple as that. But the original question posed is a good question and I see no problem for its being asked.

Also trap plants have great utility.

You're not considering some very real issues here when making those statements. I'm a market gardener, I supplement our income with sales of veggies and eggs. One year I planted a large crop of specialty Brassica, Romanescu broccoli. I hadn't heard of cabbage aphids. Until I got them. Bad. Look it up, they're like root aphids but they infest every curd of the head, absolutely everything. I lost the entire crop, it was unsalvageable. 30lbs at least, that I didn't get to sell because you can't sell food full of crunchy gritty bugs. Did you know that there really *are* no organic options for eradication or control? If I'd known about them when I planted the crops, THEN I could have done the buried row covers thing, but once established there was nothing for me, and that's for organic production.

So, what does someone do who's relying entirely on that crop? And I am curious what chemical pesticides you're referring to as well. When you ask, "To achieve what?" you're ignoring the whole point, IMO. To achieve a saleable crop, of course.

I will back track along this post but for now...
No matter, nature will find a way. Plants signal insects through volatile modulation, either VOC or MVOC communications, so it could be argued, we encourage pests with our actions, through a base level of understanding. most people just plant, they don't know what the biology is surrounding them, it might have been that the conditions where such that no matter, you may have struggled for the system may already have been prone to negative Brassica biology. Go pour Nitrates on an Orchard, see how quick the farmer comes to shoot you, or how quickly then we get pests that will destroy the crop from a healthy state.
If we take Tabaco as an example plant, should it exist? Have we extended its life here, and should it have so many enemies for some purpose that helps us but we struggle to see at first, not attack broc I love love love it.
Are we boycotting natures lessons in many cases and carrying on regardless in the face of all saying, this plant has more problems and pests than any other plant on earth and yet we farm it madly with ever more toxic weapons to get to POS in the case of Tabaco for example.
We have an alarming number of plant problems, some we are finding today, I am still amazed we find them, perhaps we are making them by releasing waste or management compounds which are reacting and binding and aggregating to form god only knows what, I I doubt god would know, we don't. What chemicals are in the land from landfill, if we then add some agri run off to this mix what then? Perhaps bio organics is doing it? We have lots to learn, but the signalling pathways for chtin are very promising in terms of ISR efficiency. If we can grow naturally stronger plants, then we will be winning and I use crab, lobster and frass with large volumes of fungi and I don't use neem :-) Just smell thing more than any other concern

good post

 

[Ecompost]

You can also get chitinase from insect frass, it's far less smelly and won't shift pH the way crab meal can. ;)

AND, if you're into it, it's a vegan source. 2-2-2+

I don't use neem at all, and won't add it back after learning what I have from my extract professionals. I can't stand the odor, either.

true da and crab can take long time to be effective, frass is better for short day crops like this

 

[Ecompost]

Some good info I've dug up...think Coots came up with this..i could be wrong

Maybe sharing different approaches will be helpful for everyone, i.e. taking a different look at making the best use of the materials you have to work with.
Neem (or Karanja) products are at the center of my IPM program. Neem meal (aka cake) is used in the soil mix and I also use it to make a tea in conjunction with kelp meal. As a bio-nutrient accumulator, neem meal is on par with the heavies like alfalfa, kelp, comfrey, borage, stinging nettles, etc. and what distinguishes one from another are the unique compounds that they create. Only brown kelp species create Alginic acid &Mannitol. Alfalfa creates Triacontanol but Comfrey does not and so on and so on.
Neem creates over 360 compounds of which around 30 function as a pesticide and/or fungicide. So with this one material I have two problems covered. Another compound that we want to see in our soil is an enzyme called Chitinase (Pronounced Kite-In-A's) Many organisms create this enzyme including bacteria. The reason that we add crab meal is for the Chitin (Kite-In) As bacteria degrade this polysaccharide this enzyme is created and it's this enzyme that gives us the pesticide benefit - not the Chitin directly.
Well, in my studies I learned that sprouted seeds release this enzyme that was encoded by the parent plant. So besides the enzymes that enhance the resin levels, the enzymes teas play a role as a growth regulator by degrading the eggs preventing the larva from maturing. (see our barley product for more info on DIY cheap enzyme teas that you can make yourself.)
I also top-dress the containers with a mix of chopped leaves with vermicompost. Plants that I've used successfully include comfrey, borage, peppermint, spearmint, oregano, rosemary, thyme, stinging nettles and always a bit of neem meal. Having that layer prevents a number of problems as far as insects & equally important the powdery mildew curse in the PNW. (CC lives in the Pacific North West)
I also make fresh teas using different plant leaves - lavender, spearmint, peppermint, oregano, thyme, borage, comfrey and my new favorite, yarrow. In fact when I spray with neem oil rather than mixing with plain water I use a botanical tea in its place. Some of the compounds in these leaves will kill on contact whereas neem oil does not. It works in a completely different way so by using botanical teas as the base you're getting a double whammy against the invaders.
Besides spraying above the soil I also lightly mist the top of the soil with any combination that I mentioned.
Powdery Mildew free since 2009 and as close as you can get to being free of Spider Mites in the PNW for over 2 years. The results speaks for itself.

the key is diverse practice in IPM and increasing ISR through bacterial or elemental modulation both of which you do clearly. What works one year, might not next, sometimes we get biblical infestations that will even eat the shitty tasting matter, so despite our efforts. In a drought, some plants have been known to produce such high levels of tannins that they have killed off entire herds of cattle or beast, and there wasn't an IPM in sight.
Something as simple as Ca applied correctly can overcome most leaf molds through pectin conversion, they wont be gone forever, but they might not get going in the first place.
I like natural approaches, but unless you have ready access to some of this stuff, it might get hard on the credit card.
We know people selling EM1 without selling also Bti are asking for trouble right. For me, all of this is about how it resonates with you as a grower, some people like one bottle one spray, some other like the challenge of conducting an orchestra
blessing and bug pest free grows Eco

 

[epitome]

Conducting an orchestra is the best metaphor ever for growing....imagine if in that concert metaphor the crowd could bring their instruments too...food for thought

 

[Stanky1]

What do you use?

Nope.