Organic Pest Prevention

[Patanjali]

This is interesting, but I will admit immediately that a good bit of it is difficult for me to grasp.

I'm curious, is this person interpreting foaming action as a measure of microbial activity? If so, that is incorrect, it cannot be used as an indicator of microbial activity. What it *can* be interpreted as is an indicator of DOCs (dissolved organic compounds) of a type that has hydrophobic end and a hydrophilic end. What you're really observing is a form of chemical filtration called foam fractionation. Think: foamy surf.

Sorry for the digression! I really am pretty bad ADD.

I know about enough chemistry to get me in trouble, but what I think he is saying is there isn't going to be a residue from neem oil unless it is sprayed really close to harvest. Even then, you will likely on be getting the oils, and those should be gone in 5-6 days per him. With that said, I don't know about everyone else, but I'm not spraying anything on my plants after week 1-2 of flower. If I spray a clone with neem is it going to carry through into extraction? I certainly don't know everything, but I'm having a real hard time understanding the science behind not being able to separate the neem oil from the cannabis oil. I'm always learning, so I'm open if anyone has contradictory information.

As far as foamy and microbial, absolutely not. He is referring to the saponins. Microbial activity is of course completely unrelated.

I would say any oils would mess with extraction. Just the nature of the beast - chemistry that is. And I doubt extract/plant material is tested for oils!

So again, I am asking. You are saying if I spray an oil on a clone it is going to be found in extraction? And if not, then what parameters dictate when it is found in extraction? Time, heat, air flow, flowering, etc?

Many thanks!

P-

 

[Ecompost]

I have *yet* to be able to get enough sap to test Brix. I don't want to give up, but... good Lord. I just make mush and hell if I can get a reading from that.

What you say here gives me some confirmation that my ideas behind stopping the use of other plant essential oils since I would like to continue moving my trim/remains to this extract fellow. It's also causing me to rethink use of JMS, except that I use it, he never complained about the 'cleanliness' of the extract he made from the trim I supplied, and my testing from SC Labs came back 100% clean for residues, though I don't know if they test for stuff like JMS.

Where's that scale/graphic from?

It's also how one makes soft soaps. It's a lot like sodium hydroxide, aka lye. It is derived from wood ashes (sodium hydroxide, I don't know how potassium hydroxide is derived).

This is interesting, but I will admit immediately that a good bit of it is difficult for me to grasp.

I'm curious, is this person interpreting foaming action as a measure of microbial activity? If so, that is incorrect, it cannot be used as an indicator of microbial activity. What it *can* be interpreted as is an indicator of DOCs (dissolved organic compounds) of a type that has hydrophobic end and a hydrophilic end. What you're really observing is a form of chemical filtration called foam fractionation. Think: foamy surf.

Sorry for the digression! I really am pretty bad ADD.

ha I use cooking oil if I get foam, it bugs me and is a pain in the arse imo.

You need to be proactive instead of reactive.
Most pest and disease problems stem from nutritional imbalances.

Here are the basics:
Test the soil and balance it. Use preventative treatments until the biology and soil is balanced and thriving.
Make sure you do not have excess nitrates. Plants can waste up to 30% of there energy on processing nitates.
Use kelp and fish to make sure you are feeding the biology and provided mineralization.
Use immune supporters like aspirin, kelp, aloe and chitinase.
Using silica and boron to increase calcium uptake.

If you want to monitor the plants you can test sap ph and brix.
That way you can stay ahead of the curve.

View attachment 561876
Nutritional problems will shot in the plant sap weeks, before you get a visual indication.


p.s. If you insist. You can use neem in veg but do not spray on flowers.
The problem is oils. Not good to sprayed on trichomes.

I would add that you should scope your media you compost, your teas, the best way to know if you are in the right spot, is to know what lurks in the media or adds, and ensure the right biology from day one. Its easier to start with a good base than to correct a shit one. If you lump in compost that has bad nematodes or fungus, then just like Portugal, you will suffer. Not all compost is created equally.

Most pest problems can be overcome with EWC and not mis managing inputs. Also high brix plants tend to be less visible to pests

I agree with testing leaf/ tissue samples etc, can be valuable, but as Sea mentions, it can be tricky and BRIX tests need the right light conditions to be of value and tissue samples can be a pain to access. If you can spot the biology, you can be more sure without extra testing, but the tissue/ sap tests will confirm the biology results with luck, having both is clearly the better option.

Nitrate can be a real headache and does divert other plant processes which can be limiting, over doing certain elements can prevent increases in organic acids from stalling Nitrate conversion. Higher pH levels will maintain the right environment for bacteria to continue to produce bio film and so maintain Nitrogen to Nitrate conversion.

I also include Cobalt as a vital element for the integrity of cells and the proper uptake of other elements. Vit b12 will work. Also microbes can use cobalt, converting to N as a back up :-)

 

[Patanjali]

A little fish hydrolysate will also knock down that foam if it gets too bad.

Edit: Too much foam while brewing an aact will lower DO2 levels.

P-

 

[Ecompost]

A little fish hydrolysate will also knock down that foam if it gets too bad.

I love that fish juice...grows trees.

 

[Seamaiden]

I lost several large sunfish at the start of winter this last year, so I went ahead and buried them in my big raised bed. We shall see! But, no raccoons have dug them up and the cover crops are going strong despite the cockerels favoring that area. I suppose I'm getting some fresh chicken dookie in the deal, eh?

I know about enough chemistry to get me in trouble, but what I think he is saying is there isn't going to be a residue from neem oil unless it is sprayed really close to harvest. Even then, you will likely on be getting the oils, and those should be gone in 5-6 days per him. With that said, I don't know about everyone else, but I'm not spraying anything on my plants after week 1-2 of flower. If I spray a clone with neem is it going to carry through into extraction? I certainly don't know everything, but I'm having a real hard time understanding the science behind not being able to separate the neem oil from the cannabis oil. I'm always learning, so I'm open if anyone has contradictory information.

And I don't understand it at all. I don't understand how cannabinoids can be extracted separately, but apparently they can.

Without actual testing, more testing, I cannot adequately answer your questions. To try to do so would be dishonest.

As far as foamy and microbial, absolutely not. He is referring to the saponins. Microbial activity is of course completely unrelated.

Ah, there is more than just saponins at play here. :) This is my fishkeeping background stuff, I have a thing for foam fractionation.

 

[leadsled]

Think about Trichomes and oils. Not the plant material.

What I was told is that the problem with oils is not the leaf material it is the trichomes.
The oils can be absorbed into the trichome.

Forgive me for not sharing the source of my information.
Kymron DeCesare is who warned me about the oil on flowers /trichomes.
He is on the scientific team at steep hill. Chief research officer.
http://steephill.com/company

I also mentioned all the medicinal properties of neem. Doctor stated that is moot.
Reply was: Herbal alchemy professionals have know this for over 60 years. Smoking oil is not good for your lungs.

Love to hear more on this subject. Also to take into consideration. All oils not just neem.

 

[Ecompost]

Think about Trichomes and oils. Not the plant material.

What I was told is that the problem with oils is not the leaf material it is the trichomes.
The oils can be absorbed into the trichome.

Forgive me for not sharing the source of my information.
Kymron DeCesare is who warned me about the oil on flowers /trichomes.
He is on the scientific team at steep hill. Chief research officer.
http://steephill.com/company

I also mentioned all the medicinal properties of neem. Doctor stated that is moot.
Reply was: Herbal alchemy professionals have know this for over 60 years. Smoking oil is not good for your lungs.

Love to hear more on this subject. Also to take into consideration. All oils not just neem.

smoking is not good for you under any conditions

 

[leadsled]

smoking is not good for you under any conditions

People are smoking cannabis and doing just fine.
This thread is about making the smoking as safe as possible.
IF your going to grow it make it as safe as possible.

Harm reduction. You point is moot or your just trolling or shilling... depending on perspective.

There are other elements in cannabis that provide protection to the lungs. Lots of scientific studies.

http://www.beyondthc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/MMJ13001A.pdf

 

[shemshemet]

^^ Sounds right. With the trichomes or glands taking in the oils more so than the plant material. And maybe even the little hair like trichomes all over the plant throughout veg. But if you spray too close to harvest I am sure residue stays on the plant material as well. I am not exactly sure on how to know at what point in the cycle it is ok to spray with neem. But, spray a or the floor with neem oil, a little bit of water is not going to wash that shit off....

 

[Patanjali]

^^ Sounds right. With the trichomes or glands taking in the oils more so than the plant material. And maybe even the little hair like trichomes all over the plant throughout veg. But if you spray too close to harvest I am sure residue stays on the plant material as well. I am not exactly sure on how to know at what point in the cycle it is ok to spray with neem. But, spray a or the floor with neem oil, a little bit of water is not going to wash that shit off....

What sounds right? Can you please explain?

Ah, there is more than just saponins at play here. :) This is my fishkeeping background stuff, I have a thing for foam fractionation.

I am not familiar with foam fractionation, but it appears to be something different than what I am referring to.

Saponins are a class of chemical compounds found in particular abundance in various plant species. More specifically, they are amphipathic glycosides grouped phenomenologically by the soap-like foaming they produce when shaken in aqueous solutions, and structurally by having one or more hydrophilic glycoside moieties combined with a lipophilic triterpene derivative.

Foam fractionation is a chemical process in which hydrophobic molecules are preferentially separated from a liquid solution using rising columns of foam. It is commonly used, albeit on a small scale, for the removal of organic waste from aquariums; these units are known as "protein skimmers".

In conclusion, I have not seen any evidence posted that supports the claims that I can spray my clone/small plant with neem and my final product is going to be contaminated with neem oil. I never spray neem oil on my plants after week 1 or 2 of flower, and this post is on organic pest prevention. Which emulsified neem and karanja oils have been taking care of my ipm needs for quite a while now.

P-

 

[shemshemet]

@Patanjali

I was referring to leadsled's post about oils and their interaction with trichomes. How oils may be absorbed/binded/attached to trichomes. Rather than worrying about residual oil which is claimed to break down in a few weeks on leaf surface, you have to worry about a bond with the sprayed oil and the oils contained within trichomes.

Now you may think you are safe because trichomes don't form until a few weeks into flowering, but the cannabis plant is riddled with hair-like trichomes. I purpose this is a problem area, where spraying your plants even early the neem could possibly hitch a ride in extraction.

This is not proven science. Just an educated thought process. Which would hinder me from spraying neem anywhere past 12/12.

 

[Seamaiden]

In conclusion, I have not seen any evidence posted that supports the claims that I can spray my clone/small plant with neem and my final product is going to be contaminated with neem oil. I never spray neem oil on my plants after week 1 or 2 of flower, and this post is on organic pest prevention. Which emulsified neem and karanja oils have been taking care of my ipm needs for quite a while now.

P-

I apologize for not being so specific as you are with regard to age or size of plant in relation to application of these compounds. However, to be clear, I never made that claim, nor do I see where anyone else here made such a claim going quickly back over the thread. But doesn't it make sense that if you're limiting the spraying to clone/veg-stage only, that the new growth wouldn't have anything on it? Unless reapplied continually, which is a practice of many growers.

I believe pest prevention may be required through the entire lifespan of the plant. That's my opinion on that, at least.


The mention of foam fractionation is because many growers are making teas with few to no sources of saponins in them, but they still see foaming. There's another thing going on besides, that's all I meant. I am extremely familiar with how foam fractionation works, thank you. :)

 

[Ecompost]

People are smoking cannabis and doing just fine.
This thread is about making the smoking as safe as possible.
IF your going to grow it make it as safe as possible.

Harm reduction. You point is moot or your just trolling or shilling... depending on perspective.

There are other elements in cannabis that provide protection to the lungs. Lots of scientific studies.

http://www.beyondthc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/MMJ13001A.pdf

ok if you like

 

[epitome]

Im no chemist, just an opinionated pothead in love with soil grown meds and i used to use Einstein oil both systemically and in foliar as a preventive in veg only that is until i noticed an additional garlicy beef ramen noodle flavor in all my homegrown meds....i dropped the einstein oil and the garlic ramen noodle nuance dissappeared.....

Just a simple observation/opinon/slice of pie for thought....

 

[Patanjali]

Im no chemist, just an opinionated pothead in love with soil grown meds and i used to use Einstein oil both systemically and in foliar as a preventive in veg only that is until i noticed an additional garlicy beef ramen noodle flavor in all my homegrown meds....i dropped the einstein oil and the garlic ramen noodle nuance dissappeared.....

Just a simple observation/opinon/slice of pie for thought....

I don't want to assume. Can you explain what you mean by used it systemically? And you're saying you sprayed in veg and you can taste it in the flowers? Just clarifying.

I apologize for not being so specific as you are with regard to age or size of plant in relation to application of these compounds. However, to be clear, I never made that claim, nor do I see where anyone else here made such a claim going quickly back over the thread. But doesn't it make sense that if you're limiting the spraying to clone/veg-stage only, that the new growth wouldn't have anything on it? Unless reapplied continually, which is a practice of many growers.

I believe pest prevention may be required through the entire lifespan of the plant. That's my opinion on that, at least.


The mention of foam fractionation is because many growers are making teas with few to no sources of saponins in them, but they still see foaming. There's another thing going on besides, that's all I meant. I am extremely familiar with how foam fractionation works, thank you. 

This is what you said from your extraction professional:

My guy is discussing neem as a foliar only. He has a lot of producers who love using it. It is damn near impossible to separate out, using whatever extraction methods he's using (he's an engineer, he tried explaining it to me but frankly, the whole thing was way over my head) from the cannabis oils and such.

From what he's telling me, any product treated with neem, especially through flower, has a residue of neem. This is specific to foliar application, he hasn't mentioned anything about neem seed meal used in mixes. And he complained bitterly about not being well able to remove the neem from the other oils he's after, and when that happens, the medible guy he's supplying won't use the product. That's really all I can say about it. It is one reason why I've stopped using other plant essential oils so often though. So far so good. So far.

Just saying. I think there is debate spraying it in flower and it mixing with the neem oil, but that is another story. Me spraying my plants in veg as a pest preventative, I’m willing to bet it is not going to effect extraction in the slightest.

With that said, if someone has some data on neem oil contaminating cannabis, I absolutely want to see it. Till then, I’m going to use neem. If anyone is wanting to use neem as a pest preventative, I’m more than happy on covering the exact process to irradicate mites.

 

[Seamaiden]

Yep, and if you're not working with or on extracts, it's kind of a moot point. It's most important to ensure you're growing healthy plants. :)

 

[epitome]

I don't want to assume. Can you explain what you mean by used it systemically? And you're saying you sprayed in veg and you can taste it in the flowers? Just clarifying.


This is what you said from your extraction professional:

Just saying. I think there is debate spraying it in flower and it mixing with the neem oil, but that is another story. Me spraying my plants in veg as a pest preventative, I’m willing to bet it is not going to effect extraction in the slightest.

With that said, if someone has some data on neem oil contaminating cannabis, I absolutely want to see it. Till then, I’m going to use neem. If anyone is wanting to use neem as a pest preventative, I’m more than happy on covering the exact process to irradicate mites.

Systemic as in poured into the medium...another ingredient i dropped that did the same was superthrive...its like there something in some products that do not change as it mobilizes through plant....i dropped botanicare after a few rounds of it also has some astringent like taste that is noticeable in flower....i smoked for years before growing my own and it was hard to meet the grower but every now and again id get to and realized that majority of growers grow all there genetics the same way which is fine unless all there "different" plants have similar flavor...ya dig

So do you still use that red mylar? Ive never tried it but i always wondered the difference it made...✌

 

[Patanjali]

Systemic as in poured into the medium...another ingredient i dropped that did the same was superthrive...its like there something in some products that do not change as it mobilizes through plant....i dropped botanicare after a few rounds of it also has some astringent like taste that is noticeable in flower....i smoked for years before growing my own and it was hard to meet the grower but every now and again id get to and realized that majority of growers grow all there genetics the same way which is fine unless all there "different" plants have similar flavor...ya dig

So do you still use that red mylar? Ive never tried it but i always wondered the difference it made...✌

Superthrive is very not organic, just an fyi.

What is a systemic insecticide?
If you’ve gardened for a while, chances are that you’ve heard the term systemic insecticide. When applied to pesticides, the term systemic means that the chemical is soluble enough in water that it can be absorbed by a plant and moved around in its tissues. Movement of systemic insecticides, like all transportable chemicals in the plant, takes place principally in the plant’s vascular system, which includes the phloem and xylem.

What you are doing is drenching the soil with neem oil. Can't say I would advise to do that. I think you'd be much better off to use neem meal in the soil, and neem oil on the leaves.

Oh I dig... lol.

Yep, and if you're not working with or on extracts, it's kind of a moot point. It's most important to ensure you're growing healthy plants. :)

I was thinking about this last night. So I think a. spraying neem is veg is going to do nothing to the flavor of your flowers b. you really shouldn't be spraying pesticides in flower c. if you are spraying pesticides in flower chances are you have a bad bug problem which means you probably won't be using it for extraction anyway (at least I wouldn't).

Also curious what yourself or the extraction people are using for a extraction safe pesticide?

P-

 

[Seamaiden]

Isopropyl alcohol really seems to do quite a lot, and I think I mentioned that my tested flowers came back clean for residues.

 

[Ecompost]

Systemic as in poured into the medium...another ingredient i dropped that did the same was superthrive...its like there something in some products that do not change as it mobilizes through plant....i dropped botanicare after a few rounds of it also has some astringent like taste that is noticeable in flower....i smoked for years before growing my own and it was hard to meet the grower but every now and again id get to and realized that majority of growers grow all there genetics the same way which is fine unless all there "different" plants have similar flavor...ya dig

So do you still use that red mylar? Ive never tried it but i always wondered the difference it made...✌

yeah i feel this, boys here switched to BotanClan and everyones herb was the same, different names, but same same. I make my own, so never got the BotanClan flavour in our yard.
Went to Co, all the bud tasted like Botan, went to Amsterdam, all the bud taste like baby sick, idk why people dont discuss this more, flavour is really important in the delivery of meds imo, if we can improve the taste, we can max out the other impacts