Organic Pest Prevention

[Dabominable]

I've been testing out an organic pest & disease/fertilizer combo that contains seaweed, ascorbic acid, yarrow, and horsetails along with a bunch of other organic goodies. I'm in the 2nd week of bloom with it now on a plant that looked like it wasn't gonna make it a few weeks ago. Yarrow is known for repelling insects and I've witnessed the power of horsetails for myself last year when it actually killed my PM instead of covering it up like the expensive shit I had bought & tried.

Could you give us the name of the product or what you use to make it yourself? This is something im very interested in..

 

[symbiote420]

Could you give us the name of the product or what you use to make it yourself? This is something im very interested in..

It's called Golden Harvest Fertilizer 4.5 - 5.5 - 3... 2% iron, used as a foliar once a week from seedling/cut - wk 3 bloom, I give them a drench every two weeks if I want to.

 

[Seamaiden]

Can you elaborate on your extract professional's disdain for neem?

Yes. It cannot be separated from the cannabis oils he's after. It leaves quite a mess.

I'd be curious what you learned from your extract professionals that you won't use neem?

Peace!

P-

I already haven't used neem for quite a while, like I said I really don't care for the odor and it seems to persist, so I've eschewed it for other things.

 

[Seamaiden]

Plants signal insects through volatile modulation, either VOC or MVOC communications, so it could be argued, we encourage pests with our actions, through a base level of understanding. most people just plant, they don't know what the biology is surrounding them, it might have been that the conditions where such that no matter, you may have struggled for the system may already have been prone to negative Brassica biology

I think this is really getting closer to the meat of the matter. I knew I had other Brassica species here on the property, mostly feral mustards. These draw harlequin beetles, what I thought were going to be my worst pest issue. They're nothing! The things to keep in mind are my locale and the fact that our property had not been developed, let alone farmed, prior to our purchase. We're in a rural area that is farming, but mostly ranching country. I later discovered that I have neighbors who are growing veggies at home, but using very chemical methods. The bugs, I think, were naturally drawn to my crop because for them it was edible.

true da and crab can take long time to be effective, frass is better for short day crops like this

AND! My chickens get the mealworms. My chickens LOVE the mealworms! And! I make mealworm families to give away to kids. Their parents are never happy about it, but fuck 'em. :p

increasing ISR through bacterial or elemental modulation

ISR=?

What do you use?

Instead of neem? Several things. For spider mites my go-to is now isopropyl alcohol because I know that it leaves zero residue. I also know that it's not reportable (keep in mind my market gardener status, I have an operators permit in my county which means I am legally mandated to report applications and use of certain products, ANY EPA labeled pesticide, whether certified for organic use or not, is included in that list. Iso is not considered a pesticide, so...!).

If I need to go harder on them I'll use JMS Stylets oil. It can be very phototoxic so great care must be used in mixing and application. That said, it's my favorite tank adjuvant. If I see PM, then I go immediately to iso or JMS.

I also keep Bt of two or three different subspecies on hand, in the form of products like DiPel, as well as Spinosad (I need to get my Conserve SC on). What else...? Cupric solutions for certain types of bacterial infections, such as Septoria. CuSO4 is approved for organic production.

Oh! And Surround, which is kaolin clay. You really don't want to use it past vegging because it AIN'T comin' off. But on other veggies and fruit, especially if you have problems with scorching in the heat, this is THE stuff you want. It can also impact aphids and flea beetles. I had a bout with cucumber flea beetles late in the season, but they didn't impact fruit production really. The green aphids make cleaning leafy greens a pain in the ass, but they come off well enough.

I mention all of these because people do see them affecting their cannabis plants as well. EG, putting a newer seedling or cut outside for the first time, she's likely to get sun scorched. An application of Surround will halt that in its tracks and she'll do just fine.

Eek! Sorry for the rambling. At least I break it up into paragraphs. :D

 

[Patanjali]

Yes. It cannot be separated from the cannabis oils he's after. It leaves quite a mess.


I already haven't used neem for quite a while, like I said I really don't care for the odor and it seems to persist, so I've eschewed it for other things.

Can not be separated from cannabis oil? Can you please elaborate?

Thank thanks!

P-

 

[Seamaiden]

No, I'm afraid I can't elaborate on that aspect. That's why he's the professional extractor guy and I'm not.

 

[Sirtiva]

Do your guys only notice residuals from using neem as a foliar or do you also find it taints the end result when used in the soil mix? Sorry for the 20 questions this is just my first time hearing of this, as it looks like it is for a few people.

 

[Patanjali]

No, I'm afraid I can't elaborate on that aspect. That's why he's the professional extractor guy and I'm not.

I'm sorry, I do not understand your post. Is he saying the neem oil is staying around until the final product and mixing with the cannabis oil? I really can't see that happening, but I'm often wrong. Neem oil is the most widely used organic pest preventative I know, so I'm curious if there is a reason I shouldn't be using it. I would love you or the professional extractors insight on this topic!

Many thanks!

P-

 

[Patanjali]

Do your guys only notice residuals from using neem as a foliar or do you also find it taints the end result when used in the soil mix? Sorry for the 20 questions this is just my first time hearing of this, as it looks like it is for a few people.

I have never noticed neem to affect the end result. I was assured if it was not sprayed like 2 days before harvest it would be broken down and would not affect flavor taste etc.

Just my 2¢,

P-

 

[Seamaiden]

Do your guys only notice residuals from using neem as a foliar or do you also find it taints the end result when used in the soil mix? Sorry for the 20 questions this is just my first time hearing of this, as it looks like it is for a few people.

My guy is discussing neem as a foliar only. He has a lot of producers who love using it. It is damn near impossible to separate out, using whatever extraction methods he's using (he's an engineer, he tried explaining it to me but frankly, the whole thing was way over my head) from the cannabis oils and such.

I'm sorry, I do not understand your post. Is he saying the neem oil is staying around until the final product and mixing with the cannabis oil? I really can't see that happening, but I'm often wrong. Neem oil is the most widely used organic pest preventative I know, so I'm curious if there is a reason I shouldn't be using it. I would love you or the professional extractors insight on this topic!

Many thanks!

P-

From what he's telling me, any product treated with neem, especially through flower, has a residue of neem. This is specific to foliar application, he hasn't mentioned anything about neem seed meal used in mixes. And he complained bitterly about not being well able to remove the neem from the other oils he's after, and when that happens, the medible guy he's supplying won't use the product. That's really all I can say about it. It is one reason why I've stopped using other plant essential oils so often though. So far so good. So far.

 

[Patanjali]

My guy is discussing neem as a foliar only. He has a lot of producers who love using it. It is damn near impossible to separate out, using whatever extraction methods he's using (he's an engineer, he tried explaining it to me but frankly, the whole thing was way over my head) from the cannabis oils and such.

From what he's telling me, any product treated with neem, especially through flower, has a residue of neem. This is specific to foliar application, he hasn't mentioned anything about neem seed meal used in mixes. And he complained bitterly about not being well able to remove the neem from the other oils he's after, and when that happens, the medible guy he's supplying won't use the product. That's really all I can say about it. It is one reason why I've stopped using other plant essential oils so often though. So far so good. So far.

This kind of thing fascinates me! I asked the professional I know, and this is the response I recieved. I would love your extraction professional's opinion on it:

Terpenes, Terpenoids & Ketones – terpenes contain 2 elements, i.e. Carbon (in multiple of 5) and hydrogen. A terpenoid contains an enhancer, oxygen, giving you CxHxOx and ketones will contain CxHxOx and another element. In the case of camphor the molecular formula is C10•H16•O but that is not to say that all ketones are limited to these 3 elements.

These compounds degrade quickly in sunlight, air movement, etc. Plants produce these 24/7 and depending on the time of the day/night or triggered by an insect landing on a single leaf, the compounds that are produced changes literally by the hour. A plant can ‘edit’ an existing compound in this group to create another.

Let’s say that at night where you live the conditions change that make your plants more likely to get hit with powdery mildew. The plant will focus on creating fungicides vs. insecticides. Like the microbes in the soil this is a very dynamic process and not a static one.

If you spray a plant with a plant-based IPM in the morning you pretty much wasted your time. Spraying as late in the evening as possible is how you maximize the qualities you’re wanting to access. It takes less than 3 hours for these agents to degrade leaving you with Carbon, Hydrogen and Oxygen – pretty simple compounds.

Neem oil itself aside from the compounds (Secondary Metabolites) consists of the following:

Oleic acid (Omega-9) @ 54% – this is also the main constituent of olive oil and many other plant-derived oils
Palmitic acid (Hexadeconoic acid) @ 33%
Stearic acid (Octadeconoic acid) @ 12%
Small amounts of Omega-3, Omega-6 are present as well.

When it comes to the compounds in neem seed oil we are not talking about terpenes, et al. but rather limonoids which are also found in high numbers in citrus fruits.The molecular formula for Azadirachtin is C35•H44•O16 in a complex structure. It took 22 years to synthesize this compound after it was first discovered in 1985.

Besides Azadirachtin are several others (365 total) of which about 8% provide either insecticide or fungicide compounds all of which are some combination of CxHxOx and these two are subject to the quick degrading like terpenes, et al. – just a few hours. It takes about 5 or 6 days for the vegetable oils to degrade.

Essential oils are often mixed with olive oil so we’re back to the same paradigm as neem oil though you certainly use far less of the essential oils vs. neem oil on the mixing ratios. But again the ‘agents’ in the essential oils are terpenes, terpenoids or ketones (camphor mainly)

When it comes to ‘soap’ per se this one I do not get. If you look at the list of ingredients for a Dr. Bronner’s product the 3rd item after water, organic coconut oil is potassium hydroxide. Besides being used to cremate humans for several years you can also find it in Drano and most other products in that category. Why in the world would anyone want to spray this on a living plant regardless of the quantity. There are far, far better options when choosing a surfactant and what you’re looking for is the level of saponins.

Here are some comparisons……

Alfalfa – 20,000 ppm
Aloe vera – 30,000 ppm
Yucca extract – 40,000 ppm

In the case of alfalfa if you’ve ever made an alfalfa and kelp tea using an air pump you saw for yourself how much foam was created. This is why I always suggest that if you going to use Aloe vera or Yucca extract you want to shake aerate the ‘tea’ for a few minutes as in 4 or 5 minutes to get the foaming action up and running.

So to answer your basic questions about terpenes, et al. and limonoids, the actual compounds are gone by early afternoon – figure 5 hours max and a week, max, for the vegetable oils to degrade.

Om shanti!

P-

 

[Ecompost]

I think this is really getting closer to the meat of the matter. I knew I had other Brassica species here on the property, mostly feral mustards. These draw harlequin beetles, what I thought were going to be my worst pest issue. They're nothing! The things to keep in mind are my locale and the fact that our property had not been developed, let alone farmed, prior to our purchase. We're in a rural area that is farming, but mostly ranching country. I later discovered that I have neighbors who are growing veggies at home, but using very chemical methods. The bugs, I think, were naturally drawn to my crop because for them it was edible.

AND! My chickens get the mealworms. My chickens LOVE the mealworms! And! I make mealworm families to give away to kids. Their parents are never happy about it, but fuck 'em. :p

ISR=?

Instead of neem? Several things. For spider mites my go-to is now isopropyl alcohol because I know that it leaves zero residue. I also know that it's not reportable (keep in mind my market gardener status, I have an operators permit in my county which means I am legally mandated to report applications and use of certain products, ANY EPA labeled pesticide, whether certified for organic use or not, is included in that list. Iso is not considered a pesticide, so...!).

If I need to go harder on them I'll use JMS Stylets oil. It can be very phototoxic so great care must be used in mixing and application. That said, it's my favorite tank adjuvant. If I see PM, then I go immediately to iso or JMS.

I also keep Bt of two or three different subspecies on hand, in the form of products like DiPel, as well as Spinosad (I need to get my Conserve SC on). What else...? Cupric solutions for certain types of bacterial infections, such as Septoria. CuSO4 is approved for organic production.

Oh! And Surround, which is kaolin clay. You really don't want to use it past vegging because it AIN'T comin' off. But on other veggies and fruit, especially if you have problems with scorching in the heat, this is THE stuff you want. It can also impact aphids and flea beetles. I had a bout with cucumber flea beetles late in the season, but they didn't impact fruit production really. The green aphids make cleaning leafy greens a pain in the ass, but they come off well enough.

I mention all of these because people do see them affecting their cannabis plants as well. EG, putting a newer seedling or cut outside for the first time, she's likely to get sun scorched. An application of Surround will halt that in its tracks and she'll do just fine.

Eek! Sorry for the rambling. At least I break it up into paragraphs. :D

No I love this talk mate so do carry on it is fascinating. ISR = Induced Systemic Response

Oh hell yeah the next door beasties would have been the likely cause of your issues. I suspect they have lots of problems, and which self respecting shit bag garden store would not stock a solution in inverted commas....to prevent the issues they generate while simultaneously ensuring repeat custom as a brand new VOC from the 1st line of control they sold screams in a brand new pest for which they also sell a product.
I use Beauvaria Bassiana to control caterpillars and also BT in I and H, I am currently testing Paecilomyces fumosoroseus to control mites with some reasonable success on red spider mites and spotted mites for sure. I am fascinated by Paecilomyces lilacinus to control nematodes also, I find Purpureocillium a fascinating fungus group worthy of investigation for veg growers and anyone outside. Its a naturally occurring organism. I aint gonna stick my neck out now pre any test feedback but it is looking extremely promising this side of the pond that more bio control options will some be widely available to all. The disconnect is the academic to grower, we and you are surely the link?

Blessing and great post thanks
Eco and Team Better Organix

 

[Ecompost]

No, I'm afraid I can't elaborate on that aspect. That's why he's the professional extractor guy and I'm not.

we have a saying, horses for courses :-) In life, admitting limitations is the 1st step to better collaboration and so a more useable outcome is soon to come from mixing with other real experts which add more value than one can ever realise alone :-)

 

[Ecompost]

Bio Pest Control in pictures, this is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beauveria_bassiana

 

[Ecompost]

More fungus we use, this time hirsutellia

 

[Ecompost]

Also predatory nematodes are very helpful

 

[leadsled]

You need to be proactive instead of reactive.
Most pest and disease problems stem from nutritional imbalances.

Here are the basics:
Test the soil and balance it. Use preventative treatments until the biology and soil is balanced and thriving.
Make sure you do not have excess nitrates. Plants can waste up to 30% of there energy on processing nitates.
Use kelp and fish to make sure you are feeding the biology and provided mineralization.
Use immune supporters like aspirin, kelp, aloe and chitinase.
Using silica and boron to increase calcium uptake.

If you want to monitor the plants you can test sap ph and brix.
That way you can stay ahead of the curve.

Nutritional problems will shot in the plant sap weeks, before you get a visual indication.


p.s. If you insist. You can use neem in veg but do not spray on flowers.
The problem is oils. Not good to sprayed on trichomes.

 

[Seamaiden]

I have *yet* to be able to get enough sap to test Brix. I don't want to give up, but... good Lord. I just make mush and hell if I can get a reading from that.

What you say here gives me some confirmation that my ideas behind stopping the use of other plant essential oils since I would like to continue moving my trim/remains to this extract fellow. It's also causing me to rethink use of JMS, except that I use it, he never complained about the 'cleanliness' of the extract he made from the trim I supplied, and my testing from SC Labs came back 100% clean for residues, though I don't know if they test for stuff like JMS.

Where's that scale/graphic from?

When it comes to ‘soap’ per se this one I do not get. If you look at the list of ingredients for a Dr. Bronner’s product the 3rd item after water, organic coconut oil is potassium hydroxide. Besides being used to cremate humans for several years you can also find it in Drano and most other products in that category.

It's also how one makes soft soaps. It's a lot like sodium hydroxide, aka lye. It is derived from wood ashes (sodium hydroxide, I don't know how potassium hydroxide is derived).

This is interesting, but I will admit immediately that a good bit of it is difficult for me to grasp.

In the case of alfalfa if you’ve ever made an alfalfa and kelp tea using an air pump you saw for yourself how much foam was created. This is why I always suggest that if you going to use Aloe vera or Yucca extract you want to shake aerate the ‘tea’ for a few minutes as in 4 or 5 minutes to get the foaming action up and running.

I'm curious, is this person interpreting foaming action as a measure of microbial activity? If so, that is incorrect, it cannot be used as an indicator of microbial activity. What it *can* be interpreted as is an indicator of DOCs (dissolved organic compounds) of a type that has hydrophobic end and a hydrophilic end. What you're really observing is a form of chemical filtration called foam fractionation. Think: foamy surf.

Sorry for the digression! I really am pretty bad ADD.

 

[shemshemet]

@Seamaiden

I would say any oils would mess with extraction. Just the nature of the beast - chemistry that is. And I doubt extract/plant material is tested for oils!

 

[Seamaiden]

Yeah, I only had my flowers tested, and the trim went to the extract guy. I believe they do their own testing, but I didn't ask for any results, he just told me that he'll take all I've got.