Defoliation Side By Side - Bushy Plants

[FatManatee]

Mini-update! week 5, day 30.

Okay, so I did some runoff EC readings again, and it's showing 2.2. So really pushing the limit on the EC.

I dropped my watering EC to 1.2, now using 20ml of Flores with 7.5ml of PK13/14, 20ml Canna Boost. I'm watering with 50% runoff now, to avoid increasing my EC any further.

I will be doing a 3 week flush, last time I had spectacular results, and I am now a firm believer in a longer flush time. You can shave off weeks of curing by increasing the flush time, the taste is fantastic! :D

If this were a longer strain, like a sativa, I might've done a mini-flush at this point.

 

[Monster762]

Mini-update! week 5, day 30.

Okay, so I did some runoff EC readings again, and it's showing 2.2. So really pushing the limit on the EC.

I dropped my watering EC to 1.2, now using 20ml of Flores with 7.5ml of PK13/14, 20ml Canna Boost. I'm watering with 50% runoff now, to avoid increasing my EC any further.

I will be doing a 3 week flush, last time I had spectacular results, and I am now a firm believer in a longer flush time. You can shave off weeks of curing by increasing the flush time, the taste is fantastic! :D

If this were a longer strain, like a sativa, I might've done a mini-flush at this point.

Idk I don’t think a lot of people agree but I personally agree with you there. If the chit is grown right n faded out for harvest then dried slow n cold there ain’t no need to cure. Or definately reduces the need to cure. My chit straight off the rack is fire no cure. 7-10 days to dry in cold dark room with ton of air exchange. But I don’t have donkey colas. So I actually have to drop temps to slow the dry.

 

[MIMedGrower]

Mini-update! week 5, day 30.

Okay, so I did some runoff EC readings again, and it's showing 2.2. So really pushing the limit on the EC.

I dropped my watering EC to 1.2, now using 20ml of Flores with 7.5ml of PK13/14, 20ml Canna Boost. I'm watering with 50% runoff now, to avoid increasing my EC any further.

I will be doing a 3 week flush, last time I had spectacular results, and I am now a firm believer in a longer flush time. You can shave off weeks of curing by increasing the flush time, the taste is fantastic! :D

If this were a longer strain, like a sativa, I might've done a mini-flush at this point.

Sounds like you got it under control.

Just a tip. If you dont overfeed there is no need to flush for flavor. And the results will be improved.

 

[FatManatee]

Just a tip. If you dont overfeed there is no need to flush for flavor. And the results will be improved.

I think we need a few side by side grows to determine the answer to this ;)

Next grow I'm thinking about ditching all bottled nutes, and using only organic, dry fertilizers mixed into a supersoil, and just feeding water.

 

[MIMedGrower]

I think we need a few side by side grows to determine the answer to this ;)

Next grow I'm thinking about ditching all bottled nutes, and using only organic, dry fertilizers mixed into a supersoil, and just feeding water.

I tested all these things over the past few years. I had 3 known cuttings going 3 rounds for testing in my perpetual.

I consider trying dry ferts like you say. I just dont think i will get the same results as individually feeding each different plant as i do now.

 

[Glow]

The deficiency in the defoliated plants got me thinking so I went off and did some research - a bit of a lit review on what papers are out there on the controlled defoliation of various species. What is apparent is that N uptake is affected by defoliation (largely due to the plant directing resources away from the roots and towards regrowth) and this needs to be compensated for. e.g.
N supply was important in rebuilding crowns following a defoliation event.

Pinkard, EA, Battaglia, M and Mohammed, CL 2007 , 'Defoliation and nitrogen effects on photosynthesis and growth of Eucalyptus globulus' , Tree Physiology, vol. 27, no. 7 , pp. 1053-1063 .

Loads of other papers supporting/finding this also. The thing being if N supply is limited by defoliation so too will other nutrients be. All about allocation of resources and in doing one thing the response equals ???

 

[FatManatee]

The deficiency in the defoliated plants got me thinking so I went off and did some research - a bit of a lit review on what papers are out there on the controlled defoliation of various species. What is apparent is that N uptake is affected by defoliation (largely due to the plant directing resources away from the roots and towards regrowth) and this needs to be compensated for. e.g.
N supply was important in rebuilding crowns following a defoliation event.

Pinkard, EA, Battaglia, M and Mohammed, CL 2007 , 'Defoliation and nitrogen effects on photosynthesis and growth of Eucalyptus globulus' , Tree Physiology, vol. 27, no. 7 , pp. 1053-1063 .

Loads of other papers supporting/finding this also. The thing being if N supply is limited by defoliation so too will other nutrients be. All about allocation of resources and in doing one thing the response equals ???

Excellent research, thank you for sharing.

This makes me think; it's important to increase nitrogen feeding during a defoliation event. I've had quite a high EC throughout flowering though, so increasing the amount of nutrients would most likely result in nute-burn, and thus may affect yields in a negative way. This means that the amount of nutrients and their ratios must be more carefully controlled, and there is a much smaller window for error.

So far I think my results have been adequate, and the minimal deficiency should not be a too big of a strain on yield (at least there is not visually much difference in size between the deficient plant, and the two other, which only show deficiencies in the lower parts). If I were to do this experiment again, I have to increase magnesium and the amount of nitrogen available to the plants, to keep them healthy.

 

[Glow]

Any deficiency that is displaying will ultimately impact on yields somewhat. In fact it's a bit of a myth in the grow culture that all is good unless you can actually see signs of deficiency... the reality is a plant can be lacking in certain nutrients long before signs of deficiency show and growth rates are impacted often long before any signs of deficiency are present.

But yes I think you'll find nutrients need to be tweaked in the case of defoliation. So the Jungle Boys may not have it wrong at all through increasing feed strength directly following defoliation - I'd be surprised if they did because they have scientists working in the background and I expect at the very least they have run tissue analysis to determine optimal feed regimes under varying growth conditions. Anyway, that sort of answers why the defoliated plants are showing signs of deficiency while the non-defoliated plants aren't. Complex stuff because it comes down to source sink relations and carbon allocation but ultimately you've just stumbled across this through hands on experimenting.

 

[FatManatee]

Approaching the end of Week 5, not much has changed from my last update, apart from a little bulging. I just ordered an extension tube for my camera, so will be giving you guys some tasty macro photos, in the coming weeks :)

 

[Glow]

You can really see the deficiency issue. Is that a defoliated plant? I've been doing a bit of research on this one because if you for example look at shwazzing the guy who promotes it recommends very high nutrient strengths and I expect he discovered this through trial and error. I.e. when he defoliated he saw deficiencies. Answer feed more. From a scientific perspective the literature supports this... E.g.

studies have shown numerous grazing-tolerant C3 and C4 forage grasses growing with high nutrient availability in controlled-environment or greenhouse conditions have demonstrated that root elongation essentially ceases within 24 hours after removal of approximately 50% or more of the shoot system and root mortality and decomposition may begin within 36-48 hours. Root respiration and nutrient acquisition are also reduced following defoliation, but to a lesser extent than root growth. Root respiration begins to decline within hours of defoliation and it may decrease substantially within 24 hours. Concomitant with the reduction in root respiration following defoliation is a rapid reduction in nutrient absorption. Experiments conducted with perennial ryegrass growing in nutrient solution demonstrated that the rate of nitrate (NO3-) absorption began to decline within 30 minutes following removal of 70% of shoot biomass. NO3- absorption decreased to less than 40% of the pre-defoliation rate within 2 hours following defoliation (Clement et al. 1978). In these experiments, NO3- absorption continued to decline over the next 4-12 hours until it became negligible for 2 or 7 days before recovery began under high and low light intensities, respectively. NO3- absorption did not resume until a positive daily carbon balance was reestablished within the plant (Clement et al. 1978). Rapid reductions in root respiration and nutrient absorption following plant defoliation are proportional to the intensity of defoliation (Davidson and Milthorpe 1966a, Thorgeirsson 1988). Similarly, canopy shading or root severing causes large, rapid decreases in root respiration and nutrient absorption (Clarkson et al. 1974, Hansen and Jensen 1977, Massimino et al. 1981, Saglio and Pradet 1980, Aslam and Huffaker 1982, Thorgeirsson 1988, Bloom and Caldwell 1988, Macduff and Jackson 1992). These experiments clearly demonstrate the importance of current photosynthesis for the maintenance of root growth and function in rapidly growing plants.

 

[FatManatee]

You can really see the deficiency issue. Is that a defoliated plant? I've been doing a bit of research on this one because if you for example look at shwazzing the guy who promotes it recommends very high nutrient strengths and I expect he discovered this through trial and error. I.e. when he defoliated he saw deficiencies. Answer feed more. From a scientific perspective the literature supports this... E.g.

This is one of the control plants. I realize the problem, I just don't think I can do much to it right now. Changing to these new Quantum Board lights from purple LED's has increased demand for nutrients, especially magnesium (and maybe sulfur? + nitrogen).

My soil EC is very high right now, so I can't really add more nutrients. I suspect that there must've been an imbalance of nutrient ratio's earlier on. Like I said, adding Epsom salts stopped the magnesium deficiency from spreading, but then it bumped up my soil EC to very high levels, leading to other small issues.

I'm starting my flush during my next watering, so there's not much to do at this point anymore. Just take it as a lesson learned, when adjusting to new light fixtures, and apply that knowledge on the next grow :)

I'd say it's still better to have a small deficiency, rather then a toxicity, obviously having perfect conditions would be the best, but it feels like threading a needle right now :D

I'm also using Canna Boost, which may have an impact on the plants as well.

Looks like I'm gonna smash my previous records, and hopefully hit that 1g/w this time. That's my main goal right now.

 

[Glow]

Nice man! Good effort! Yeah I would suggest also compensating for the lower nutrient absorption associated to defoliation but as you say it is a bit like threading a needle. But yep if the controls are now showing deficiency that's across the board. Did the defoliated plants though show the deficiency before the control?

 

[FatManatee]

Nice man! Good effort! Yeah I would suggest also compensating for the lower nutrient absorption associated to defoliation but as you say it is a bit like threading a needle. But yep if the controls are now showing deficiency that's across the board. Did the defoliated plants though show the deficiency before the control?

Yeah, defoliation side showed problems before the control group, around 10 days prior.

 

[Teeky84]

I just read up on this schwazzing
Honestly the video is nice but proves no method. No actual hands on. Too much like a commercial.

So why is everyone stuck on fan leaves being the power source of the plant?

I always thought the little leaves attatched to the buds were what mattered and big ones just blocked things.

On the defoliating subject

How late is too late to defoliate pretty heavily?
Would you all say 30 days in no later?
Is there a negative effect ?
Has anyone personally experienced negatives? from defoliating mid flower ( plant die, slowed a lot in growth or stalled in flower ?)[/QUOTE
]
I have been defoliating my skittelz continually throughout flower with no ill effects . I have never had better buds
defoliating to some extent is crucial

I just read up on this schwazzing
Honestly the video is nice but proves no method. No actual hands on. Too much like a commercial.

So why is everyone stuck on fan leaves being the power source of the plant?

I always thought the little leaves attatched to the buds were what mattered and big ones just blocked things.

On the defoliating subject

How late is too late to defoliate pretty heavily?
Would you all say 30 days in no later?
Is there a negative effect ?
Has anyone personally experienced negatives? from defoliating mid flower ( plant die, slowed a lot in growth or stalled in flower ?)

I have been defoliating throughout flower for my last 2 grows . My current grow is currently at the beginning of week 5 flower . I clip leaves every few days to aid light penetrating further into the canopy but don’t go crazy and do this until I see fit.
However i am selective in which leafs to take and like to leave as much on therebas possible . I have seen no negative results . Also my tent is crowded with the 3 big ladies and plenty of foliage always seems to increase humidity with wet spots on touching leafs after the dark cycle . Defoliating helps prevent this and can only be good for preventing bud rot.

My defoliated skittelz @ week 5

 

[Glow]

Yeah, defoliation side showed problems before the control group, around 10 days prior.

Yeah its a low level chronic deficiency which could be caused by several things separately or all combined. The fact though the defoliated plants showed it first shows their nutrient status is altered because of defoliation which is inline to research.

 

[Bubba kush]

Maybe when their book doesnt sell anymore they will revise their stance and the new book will be 4 a light. No defoliation needed.

:)

Fucking funny!!!!!

 

[FatManatee]

During this experiment, I made an observation that might actually support why schwazzing might work.
On the defoliation side I have more bud sites lower in the plants, and I suspect that this is because the bottom of the plant received more light and airflow. However I pruned quite late, so there is not a major difference with the amount of bud sites. In both groups, there is still quite many sites with a single calyx, that could've developed into a budsite.

Image ripped off google images:

With schwazzing, you would open up all the bud sites to light and airflow at the beginning of flowering, which would lead to more calyxes turning into bud sites.

Maybe this truly is worth of an experiment in a future..

 

[Chowfarms]

I have been defoliating throughout flower for my last 2 grows . My current grow is currently at the beginning of week 5 flower . I clip leaves every few days to aid light penetrating further into the canopy but don’t go crazy and do this until I see fit.
However i am selective in which leafs to take and like to leave as much on therebas possible . I have seen no negative results . Also my tent is crowded with the 3 big ladies and plenty of foliage always seems to increase humidity with wet spots on touching leafs after the dark cycle . Defoliating helps prevent this and can only be good for preventing bud rot.

My defoliated skittelz @ week 5

I did pretty much the same things you did on my current run. Loving the results so far. Heavy defoliantion on day 21, and then every few days go through and selectively take more. I probably am going to try to take even more off my next run. My one friend goes way heavy and kills it.

 

[Chowfarms]

We’re at right about the same day, OP! These were defoliated in day 21, this pic was taken day 30 I believe. I’ve gone through and taken a significant amount more in the last 5 days. Haven’t seen any negative effects yet(knock on wood). I’m feeding somewhat heavily, multiple times a day in straight coco. Wish I did a before and after like you did! Tuned in for sure. Looking good so far. Also, great info in this thread thank you for this

 

[FatManatee]

We’re at right about the same day, OP! These were defoliated in day 21, this pic was taken day 30 I believe. I’ve gone through and taken a significant amount more in the last 5 days. Haven’t seen any negative effects yet(knock on wood). I’m feeding somewhat heavily, multiple times a day in straight coco. Wish I did a before and after like you did! Tuned in for sure. Looking good so far. Also, great info in this thread thank you for this

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Great job! What strain is that?