Problematic Plant/COCO medium/FFOF issues?

[CosmoGrows]

I havent had the best of luck with these things, im getting very demotivated. I had a good first harvest and since then, its been rough this second grow. Barely being able to make it out of early veg. Yesterday some of you may have saw i posted a thread about one of my plants wilting. Hes since then fairly recovered, or is well on his way atleast, and ive taken the steps to get it the proper care. Tonight, i open the tent and i see another issue with a different plant of mine. Heres the history, and heres the issue.

This plant has been healthy the whole time as far as watering. ive never overwatered. Maybe, just maybe i have underwatered, im not to sure. But one day i put my tents heater to close to this guy, and a couple other seedlings. The seedlings got destroyed within MINUTES of the heater being set on them. This guy survived, but i did see damage to the lower leaves when it happened. Im assuming the damage to the VERY BOTTOM Leaves are heat damage. So this post is not really about those leaves, instead its about the rest of the plant. it may look fairly healthy, but the issue im having is its showing signs of being underwatered, (i think), and i just watered it fairly well last night. Its been over 24 hours and it hasnt popped back up.

I am getting very frustrated as i have an expensive setup i put alot of time into, and i went through a grow already, and had a great turnout. now i cant seem to get past this young veg stage. My roots keep getting muddy, it seems, with FFOF/added perlite at this exact stage.

My Questions:

Could this all just be heat damage?
Am i panicing? Do i wait, let it dry out, and see if it recovers?
Do i transplant into dryer soil?
Is there nothing wrong and im just a super newb???
Does anyone have any issues with fox farm "mudding" up and making it so your roots cant drink any water, nutes etc?(I even added perlite)
I plan to switch to COCO coir, or atleast try it. Can i start young plants off in CannaCOCO and then transplant into FFOF? (I feel like maybe coco would help the seedling & young plants grow healthy, because its more airy, and then transplant into FFOF?) I am trying to avoid the mudding up issue. Like i said, i even added perlite.
Any other suggested soils maybe to try??

Here is the current plant in question:

Could this all just be heat damage?
Am i panicing? Do i wait, let it dry out, and see if it recovers?
Do i transplant into dryer soil?
Is there nothing wrong and im just a super newb???

PS: Sorry, my phone was to dead to get a flash so some pics are dark, if i need a pic with flash ill charge phone and reupload.
P.S.S: Im a super newb, I could definitely be panicing and this could be a waste of a thread, dont pick on me.
PSSS: After posting the pictures, the pictures dontlook as bad as it does in real life,its pretty droopy. Usually this guy is perked up fairly well.

 

[CosmoGrows]

I know this is a bad angle, but this is it when its healthy, and watered perfect. He doesnt look as perky. And he just got well watered.

In the Second picture, the PLANT IN THE BACK, BEHIND THE ONE IN THE FRONT, is the one i am speaking about, this is it last night right after being watered. the blurry plant in the background

I do have two fans on these plants. maybe it is to much air, and the leaves cant transpire??? if you look at both, both bottom leaves droop. could it have been from the heat stress and now its just sticking?

 

[Jack og]

Well first of all, don’t give up/
Sh*t happens to the best of us.
As for the question on starting in coco, and going into FFOF, yes, it works and I do it.
Works for clones and seeds.
Fox farms soil is hot, but I’ve managed to grow well despite this.
Seedlings are finicky, so any environmental changes effects/affects them.
As far as recovery, I’d say it’s a weed, if she doesn’t make it now, not worth the time later. Only the strong survive and expect losses.
above all patience is key brother.
You can transplant into a coco fox farm mix to avoid the “muddiness”. And add heat from outside the grow space via an Intake fan pushing air down from top and pulling air out he bottom. Directed heat will kill any plant let alone a seedling

 

[CosmoGrows]

Well first of all, don’t give up/
Sh*t happens to the best of us.
As for the question on starting in coco, and going into FFOF, yes, it works and I do it.
Works for clones and seeds.
Fox farms soil is hot, but I’ve managed to grow well despite this.
Seedlings are finicky, so any environmental changes effects/affects them.
As far as recovery, I’d say it’s a weed, if she doesn’t make it now, not worth the time later. Only the strong survive and expect losses.
above all patience is key brother.
You can transplant into a coco fox farm mix to avoid the “muddiness”. And add heat from outside the grow space via an Intake fan pushing air down from top and pulling air out he bottom. Directed heat will kill any plant let alone a seedling

Ahhhh, giving me hope. Thank you! thats exactly what im trying to do, i feel like my seedlings, and even young plants get mudded up and they just die right around this stage theyre at now.

AS far as starting in COCO, i have a cannacoco brick, can i just break that up or do whatever i need to do to pot it, and start seedlings off directly in coco? or do i have to add some other stuff? Can i do a 50-50 mix of cannacoco and ffof? orJUST coco/perlite in a seedling pod with the seed?

I have a CannaCOCO Brick(two of them actually), Perlite, and worm castings.

 

[CosmoGrows]

@Jack og
25% CannaCOCO
25% Perlite
50% Fox farm
for seed pods?
Like if i did 1cup cannacoco, 1 cup perlite, 2 cups fox farm and filled my seed pods with that, would that maybe help the mudding up of the roots?

@oldskol4evr
@Aqua Man
@Beachwalker

You guys were EXTREMELY, knowledgeable on my last post, maybe i could return for some more help?

 

[Smoking Gun]

If you are getting mud you are absolutely over watering back off. I find that it is actually pretty easy to over water plants in Ocean Forest. It is also pretty hot for young plants as @Jack og stated. Personally I prefer starting plants in Happy frog, it has a lot less nutes in there and drains very well. I actually like growing at all stages in Happy Frog.

My real question is what does your ventilation system look like? Do you have a proper exhaust fan and a means of bringing fresh air into the tent? You stated you have two fans inside the tent, are they oscillating? How big are they? One major thing I find with new growers is that moving sir within the tent is often confused for having good ventilation; they are by no means the same thing.

Why would you put a heater directly on your plants? It is just going to cause problems. It would be best to bring up the temps around the tent and allow you rintake to bring fresh air into your space. Speaking of which what are the environmental parameters inside your tent? What is the temp? What is the RH at? All of this info will help us give you the best advice we can.

 

[oldskol4evr]

@Jack og
25% CannaCOCO
25% Perlite
50% Fox farm
for seed pods?
Like if i did 1cup cannacoco, 1 cup perlite, 2 cups fox farm and filled my seed pods with that, would that maybe help the mudding up of the roots?

@oldskol4evr
@Aqua Man
@Beachwalker

You guys were EXTREMELY, knowledgeable on my last post, maybe i could return for some more help?

im trying to figure out what you mean by mudding up,if you are having mud ,you sure enough are watering way to much,ocean has a mess of wood chips and such in it,there formula has the perfect amount of per;ite ratio for the wood chips ,both combined gives you the air movement when exchanged,most add more perlite and in my opinion defeats the purpose of the built soil and its amend they put in it,just my opinion i dont add to it,its balanced that way for a reason ,called CEC the cation exchange capicity is most important for all plant again my own opinion ,others will difer im sure,perlite is one thing ,but adding coco to ocean i have yet to understand why folks do it at all just saying,if it is for volume of soil id go peat moss instead,just me.
so from your plan here what you got,25 coco,25 perlite then ocean has the wood chips so im saying you have right about 65% air alone there,not much room for soil,for sure want be mudding up,i watch these threads a lot and have noticed when folks do the mix in of coco the less experienced growers seem to have issues,they wouldnt if the experience level was a bit more,just saying the coco is salty ,you wash it ok fine ,but when you put it in soil the salt is still gonna build up in it if you dig,coco is best moist and there is the runoff thing to wash out those salts,soil is difrent from the get go you dont feed it like you would coco perlite promix,soil holds minerals and you dont do as much of the runoff thing from buffering if you dig,they are best pretty much flushed every time you feed ,soil when the mix just starts to come out the pot you stop ,you cant flush soil it then turns to mud,this is what i think your doing,your feeding like your in the soiless with 20 or 30%runoff,that my friend washes all the minerals out of you soil ,no feed and compaction comes from that point,buy the time you get the soil turned around your almost ready to flip,and we all want healthy plants before flip and transition if you dig

 

[cemchris]

Well first of all, don’t give up/
Sh*t happens to the best of us.
As for the question on starting in coco, and going into FFOF, yes, it works and I do it.
Works for clones and seeds.
Fox farms soil is hot, but I’ve managed to grow well despite this.
Seedlings are finicky, so any environmental changes effects/affects them.
As far as recovery, I’d say it’s a weed, if she doesn’t make it now, not worth the time later. Only the strong survive and expect losses.
above all patience is key brother.
You can transplant into a coco fox farm mix to avoid the “muddiness”. And add heat from outside the grow space via an Intake fan pushing air down from top and pulling air out he bottom. Directed heat will kill any plant let alone a seedling

The biggest hurdle you will get over as a new grower, as @Jack og said, is knowing when to just kill something. Not every plant is a winner. I transplant 20 plants for a run and keep the best 17. There will always be a straggler or 2. When you are first starting out you try to save everything. Don't give up. You are just dealing with the learning curve like we all do/did. No definitive instructions like changing brakes on a certain model of a car since we are dealing with stuff that is alive.

It's funny over the years watching buddies getting into growing and when you go in to help them on the first couple of grows you are rough with the plants and throwing clones away and they have this look on their face that is priceless. It takes you back.

 

[CosmoGrows]

i moistened the soil with a mister before putting the plant in the pot. it goes 8 days without water and shows no symptoms of being under/over watered, so i gave it about 2/3 of a cup of water. Now it seems as if im over watering plants?? I just feel like a plant should drink more than 2/3 of a cup of water every 8 days. But will go with less water next time. thank you for the feedback!

Temps - 75 Constant- hasnt been lower than 65 with the light off. Not once. My history on my thermometer states the tent has NEVER been over 80 degrees either for the whole grow.
Lowest Humidity ive ever had was 39%. Highest was 57%. Ever throughout the whole grow.
Vivosun exhaustfan with controller, turned off one fan of the two are ARE NOT oscillating.
As far as the heater being place directly on the plants, well, newcomer, who took a nice fat dab and went into his tent to fix things, stoners make stoner mistakes. Lol.

I just dont understand, This morning i wake up and the plants are even more droopy. The pots are still pretty moist.
Still kind of at a loss, as one person says coco/ffof works and one person says it doesnt. Should i switch soils, or keep trying to work with the fox farm? fox farm seems to never work for me, but i am horrible rn at growing, maybe Roots organics??? I feel like coco coir seems alot easier?

 

[CosmoGrows]

im trying to figure out what you mean by mudding up,if you are having mud ,you sure enough are watering way to much,ocean has a mess of wood chips and such in it,there formula has the perfect amount of per;ite ratio for the wood chips ,both combined gives you the air movement when exchanged,most add more perlite and in my opinion defeats the purpose of the built soil and its amend they put in it,just my opinion i dont add to it,its balanced that way for a reason ,called CEC the cation exchange capicity is most important for all plant again my own opinion ,others will difer im sure,perlite is one thing ,but adding coco to ocean i have yet to understand why folks do it at all just saying,if it is for volume of soil id go peat moss instead,just me.
so from your plan here what you got,25 coco,25 perlite then ocean has the wood chips so im saying you have right about 65% air alone there,not much room for soil,for sure want be mudding up,i watch these threads a lot and have noticed when folks do the mix in of coco the less experienced growers seem to have issues,they wouldnt if the experience level was a bit more,just saying the coco is salty ,you wash it ok fine ,but when you put it in soil the salt is still gonna build up in it if you dig,coco is best moist and there is the runoff thing to wash out those salts,soil is difrent from the get go you dont feed it like you would coco perlite promix,soil holds minerals and you dont do as much of the runoff thing from buffering if you dig,they are best pretty much flushed every time you feed ,soil when the mix just starts to come out the pot you stop ,you cant flush soil it then turns to mud,this is what i think your doing,your feeding like your in the soiless with 20 or 30%runoff,that my friend washes all the minerals out of you soil ,no feed and compaction comes from that point,buy the time you get the soil turned around your almost ready to flip,and we all want healthy plants before flip and transition if you dig

I dont water with any runoff, nothing comes out of the bottom of the pots, i dont let it get that far. I dont even have water catchers under my pots. No runoff.

Another reason why this is so frustrating.

 

[CosmoGrows]

The pots are moist. I mean im new so maybe i overwatered but, i just dont see how, i literally give them close to nothing.

 

[CosmoGrows]

So i said screw it, this keeps happening, whats another plant lost aslong as i can learn from this? i did a transplant, sure its early, i know, but i put er in a bigger pot, pretty much just to show you guys the roots, they just dont look healthy to me??? but, as said before, i am new.

If you notice in the pictures, you can tell the soil isdry, i do let it dry out, i dont just constantly water, why is it balling up like this?
I was thinking of starting the seedling out in CoCo then transplanting to pure FFOF to avoid this. Wouldnt work?

EDIT: TESTED PPM, 204PPM Water.

 

[Jack og]

@Jack og
25% CannaCOCO
25% Perlite
50% Fox farm
for seed pods?
Like if i did 1cup cannacoco, 1 cup perlite, 2 cups fox farm and filled my seed pods with that, would that maybe help the mudding up of the roots?

@oldskol4evr
@Aqua Man
@Beachwalker

You guys were EXTREMELY, knowledgeable on my last post, maybe i could return for some more help?

Yep perfect mix, I do about the same

 

[CosmoGrows]

Yep perfect mix, I do about the same

@Jack og
Have you had any issues with what @oldskol4evr was discussing? with the salts building up and all that jazz?
I put my new idea in the spoiler below of what i planned to run with to maybe stop this balling issue. ideas?
What about, starting seedling in coco, till its got a nice root base (like young veg) and then transplanting to ffof?

Spoiler: Side Idea?

Was thinking about restarting with CoCo/Perlite/All purpose 4-4-4 slow release/top dressings.

I know, slow release? Youre probably throwing up, but im wondering if ill have better luck with coco and perlite as its more airy and hard to over water. go into flower with 4-8-4 flower?

 

[jumpincactus]

So i said screw it, this keeps happening, whats another plant lost aslong as i can learn from this? i did a transplant, sure its early, i know, but i put er in a bigger pot, pretty much just to show you guys the roots, they just dont look healthy to me??? but, as said before, i am new.

If you notice in the pictures, you can tell the soil isdry, i do let it dry out, i dont just constantly water, why is it balling up like this?
I was thinking of starting the seedling out in CoCo then transplanting to pure FFOF to avoid this. Wouldnt work?

EDIT: TESTED PPM, 204PPM Water.

if you are regularly letting your rootball get this dry as shown in your pics you are underwatering. The trick s to keep the soil moist all the way thru the rootball but never soggy sopping wet either. Heres a trick I used in the beginning and you will hear it alot in the forums. Water the pot to where you are seeing 10-20 % run off and then heft the pot up to get a feel of its weight once well watered. Then you can use this as 1 way to know when they may be thirsty by lifting the pots to see how light they feel. AS they drink and the water evaporates the pots will become lighter. Fabric pots will def dry out the soil quicker than plastic pots as they allow more aeration to the rootzone and thus the soil drys out much quicker. In a fab bag the size you are using a 2/3 cup of water isnt near enough moisture.

 

[CosmoGrows]

if you are regularly letting your rootball get this dry as shown in your pics you are underwatering. The trick s to keep the soil moist all the way thru the rootball but never soggy sopping wet either. Heres a trick I used in the beginning and you will hear it alot in the forums. Water the pot to where you are seeing 10-20 % run off and then heft the pot up to get a feel of its weight once well watered. Then you can use this as 1 way to know when they may be thirsty by lifting the pots to see how light they feel. AS they drink and the water evaporates the pots will become lighter. Fabric pots will def dry out the soil quicker than plastic pots as they allow more aeration to the rootzone and thus the soil drys out much quicker. In a fab bag the size you are using a 2/3 cup of water isnt near enough moisture.

Ahh, now im not giving them enough, THESE THINGS ARE SO PICKY OMFG LOL. But okay, thank you, VERY much for the seedback, i just transplanted it, ill let it recover and ill try to keep the soil moist but not let it get desert dry. I guess i paniced so much about overwatering now im just not giving them enough.

@jumpincactus ,i transplanted into new soil. I did not water as the new soil is pretty moist. figured it would be enough for it, i dont want to overwater.i took the plant out, smacked all the dried dirt off the roots, but not all of it. i couldnt get all of it. but i did make some breathing room. Do you think i have a shot? or shall i just toss it and begin over again? I just dont want to be let down, lets say in mid flower because of this issue, when i could just save the stress now. LOL.

 

[QuestForZest]

Ahh, now im not giving them enough, THESE THINGS ARE SO PICKY OMFG LOL. But okay, thank you, VERY much for the seedback, i just transplanted it, ill let it recover and ill try to keep the soil moist but not let it get desert dry. I guess i paniced so much about overwatering now im just not giving them enough.

@jumpincactus ,i transplanted into new soil. I did not water as the new soil is pretty moist. figured it would be enough for it, i dont want to overwater.i took the plant out, smacked all the dried dirt off the roots, but not all of it. i couldnt get all of it. but i did make some breathing room. Do you think i have a shot? or shall i just toss it and begin over again? I just dont want to be let down, lets say in mid flower because of this issue, when i could just save the stress now. LOL.

I dunno. My initial thought when I saw your plants was over-watered but the root ball looks dry in the pic. Anyways, have you considered not growing in coco and instead use soil? As a beginner, I think it's way more beginner friendly and allows for more user error. I've been growing for almost 5 years and am just now trying out other mediums besides soil now that I finally have a slightly better understanding of plants needs....

 

[CosmoGrows]

I dunno. My initial thought when I saw your plants was over-watered but the root ball looks dry in the pic. Anyways, have you considered not growing in coco and instead use soil? As a beginner, I think it's way more beginner friendly and allows for more user error. I've been growing for almost 5 years and am just now trying out other mediums besides soil now that I finally have a slightly better understanding of plants needs....

I mean, maybe im so new and im wrong as shit, i could very well be but i though FFOF was a soil? i was thinking about trying out Coco which is a medium rather. just an idea because of the bad luck im having with theese ones.

 

[cemchris]

Just to give you a warning. Coco/perlite grows, unless they are in huge pots, with slow release is just a world or problems since you will be watering a ton.

 

[Aqua Man]

Imposter soil grower here ... That soil must be hot af cause that plant is showing a decent amount of nitrogen toxicity.

I won't comment on the rest but I would question using that soil for young plants and may be a better idea to wait until they are a little bigger before using it.