Day 11 from sprout whats going on...

[Aqua Man]

OP here is a great intermediate read on hydro and nutrients. It never hurts to learn. I find almost all of this bang on with a slight exception to the ppm/EC levels.

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[RR1]

Fair enough and i agree an absolute goldmine of info bit not so much known for his hydro.

I agree a with the keeping it simple but disagree about PH. IMO ratio and PH are pivotal to understand and control in hydro. I would say they make up 90% of issues.

Then again to your point if the nutrient ratios adjusted and chelates are good I can see those PHs working for you but I still feel like they are not optimal.

I also agree that people seed to learn the basics but should try to learn as much as possible also.

Absolutely, I pick up new shit every grow. My goal is to aways have the best joint in the room. ;)

 

[vortexa]

Yeah seed has nutes as well for first week i believe

 

[Jklem]

How we looking haven't posted in awhile. Should I wait for more pistals to turn orange before checking the trichomes? Any clue on how much longer? Here's the 3 leaf mystery plant too lol its a monster on resin production

 

[johnsmith_559]

hello
so i have read a lot of varying opinions. in water culture ( any thing with it a medium such as dwc nft aero etc ) the solution should be around 1700 Us ( microsemeins ) which is around 1.2 EC th ph can drift 5.5 to 7.0 without too much issue. those are wee little plants and may have benefited from a little more pregrowth prior to planting . What is the light level ? everyone has been bombarded with PAR talk but forgot that footcandles or ( intensity) is still extremely important. par is spectrum FC is quantity or intensity. like ph and ec of your water vs feed volume . FC should be aou3nd 1500 to max 2000 FC ( or 15000 to 20000 lux ) .
other than that they look ok .
as far as th4 well water definitely that is an issue. You can't have a good feed solution if half your nutrient is random nutrients. the vast majority of salts in well water will be calcium and magnesium carbonate followed by iron and sulphur ( cal mag is thjs ) . if you run an RO system to clean the water ( as you said it was reading ec of 0) it is a good idea to just add 10% well water back to replace the hardness or buffering capacity of your water. no need for cal mag unless you really felt like it . good luck
oh and I found not recommend this highly enough but this book is by far the best book 6ou will ever find on hydroponics and water culture ...period.
Hydroponic food production by dr Howard resh

 

[Aqua Man]

hello
so i have read a lot of varying opinions. in water culture ( any thing with it a medium such as dwc nft aero etc ) the solution should be around 1700 Us ( microsemeins ) which is around 1.2 EC th ph can drift 5.5 to 7.0 without too much issue. those are wee little plants and may have benefited from a little more pregrowth prior to planting . What is the light level ? everyone has been bombarded with PAR talk but forgot that footcandles or ( intensity) is still extremely important. par is spectrum FC is quantity or intensity. like ph and ec of your water vs feed volume . FC should be aou3nd 1500 to max 2000 FC ( or 15000 to 20000 lux ) .
other than that they look ok .
as far as th4 well water definitely that is an issue. You can't have a good feed solution if half your nutrient is random nutrients. the vast majority of salts in well water will be calcium and magnesium carbonate followed by iron and sulphur ( cal mag is thjs ) . if you run an RO system to clean the water ( as you said it was reading ec of 0) it is a good idea to just add 10% well water back to replace the hardness or buffering capacity of your water. no need for cal mag unless you really felt like it . good luck
oh and I found not recommend this highly enough but this book is by far the best book 6ou will ever find on hydroponics and water culture ...period.
Hydroponic food production by dr Howard resh

Have you grown in hydro?

I think your misunderstanding the info you are providing.

 

[Aqua Man]

How we looking haven't posted in awhile. Should I wait for more pistals to turn orange before checking the trichomes? Any clue on how much longer? Here's the 3 leaf mystery plant too lol its a monster on resin production

They are looking fine bro

 

[johnsmith_559]

Have you grown in hydro?

I think your misunderstanding the info you are providing.

hello
I have grown for 30 years in the larger scale .there is. not a system I have not used. a lot we just made. the same thing is required for all systems. 12 minimum nutrient. ph and ec reasonable. it all about how you support the roots and the interactions with the solution . the main benefit to hydroponic is the control over the root zone. either growing plants in larger container than their drip line would allow or reducing planting media.
personally I have found that there is no need to use anything complicated. the exact same yields from a simple drip in promix or even hand water ( with a wee bit more media ) NFT and dwc are mainly used to reduce media cost on a large scale and control over feed .. nft better for non heavy fruiting plants such as tomatoes. lettuce, and 4e like . dwc was introduced for the heavy fruiting plants such as tomatoes which will produce larger feeder roots with a high demand as well as having more physical water in case of pump failure . the NFT favours air roots.
KIS ( keep it simple )
the best thing I can recomend for the serious hydroponist( made that up ..I think lol ) is the trifecta of books
hydroponic food production by dr Howard m resh
rockwool in horticulture by Dennis Smith
ABC of NFT by dr allan cooper .
last one very boring but the very basics of hydroponics .lettuce and tomatoes. 1977. they built and made everything as there was nothing for sale. lol

 

[johnsmith_559]

as far as harvest you cant go wrong with 60 to 80 red dead hair . the trichomes not being ripe with that amount of red hairs is highly unlikely. a wee bit less and it's a bit brighter high a little more red the more narcotic feeling the high .
I personally go around 75 %

 

[Aqua Man]

hello
I have grown for 30 years in the larger scale .there is. not a system I have not used. a lot we just made. the same thing is required for all systems. 12 minimum nutrient. ph and ec reasonable. it all about how you support the roots and the interactions with the solution . the main benefit to hydroponic is the control over the root zone. either growing plants in larger container than their drip line would allow or reducing planting media.
personally I have found that there is no need to use anything complicated. the exact same yields from a simple drip in promix or even hand water ( with a wee bit more media ) NFT and dwc are mainly used to reduce media cost on a large scale and control over feed .. nft better for non heavy fruiting plants such as tomatoes. lettuce, and 4e like . dwc was introduced for the heavy fruiting plants such as tomatoes which will produce larger feeder roots with a high demand as well as having more physical water in case of pump failure . the NFT favours air roots.
KIS ( keep it simple )
the best thing I can recomend for the serious hydroponist( made that up ..I think lol ) is the trifecta of books
hydroponic food production by dr Howard m resh
rockwool in horticulture by Dennis Smith
ABC of NFT by dr allan cooper .
last one very boring but the very basics of hydroponics .lettuce and tomatoes. 1977. they built and made everything as there was nothing for sale. lol

So you understand that ph swing is a big deal? Not ph range... the range is that big but a swing of 1.0 or more is absolutely not ok?

Ppm of 1700-2000 are extremely rarely used on a commercial scale unless growing massive trees? Not really applicable to the home grower?

I mean there is no one answer to anything really and everything needs to be dealt with on an individual bases. Understanding all the interactions is the key. Not a set of numbers

And I 100% agree keep it simple... ditch all the additives and concentrate on basic ideal growing conditions

 

[johnsmith_559]

I do not agree . ph swing is natural in soil . in soiless media the natural buffering capacity ( or action exchange capacity) completely eliminates need for ph adjustment in most cases. when ph drifts up or down it will INFLUENCE the amount of nutrient absorption but IT DOES NOT STOP . it will be +/-15 at best . in tissue culture they routinely run 4.5 to reduce biological contamination. there is no issue with trace minerals until 7.5 when chelated mineral will drop out . now ph is logarithmic meaning it is x10 per point up or down .6 is 10x more acid than 7 .5 is 100x .that also means it takes thst much chemical reactivity. it take 10x more acidity to go from 6 to 5 . .in water ph buffering is the calcium and magnesium carbonate or water hsrdness
agsin now, having been producing on a large scale for 20 of those 30 years I can give anecdotal evidence that the ph is the last issue. salt buildup in the medium is responsible for the vast ( 80%+) of all issues relating to nutrient. the nutrient formulas are mostly the same . a nitrogen to potassium ratio of 1 to 1 and a potassium to nitrogen ratio of 1.5 to 1 ( misconception that bloom is more phosphorus . it is defined by a minimum of 1.5 to 1 K to N . phosphorus is raised by 20% at most ) .
I can provide my own formulas i have made and used for 30 years. costs about 10$ to make 20 liter 100 to 1 concentrate.
my average yields with no supplement, addictive, training techniques, special lights co2 on a simply drip water in promix or flood drain in nft and rockwool was between 1 lb to 1.25 lb per 4x4 area with a 600 hps .I actually did a bit better as we had them on movers and averages that with what would have been closer to 300watt average

 

[Aqua Man]

I do not agree . ph swing is natural in soil . in soiless media the natural buffering capacity ( or action exchange capacity) completely eliminates need for ph adjustment in most cases. when ph drifts up or down it will INFLUENCE the amount of nutrient absorption but IT DOES NOT STOP . it will be +/-15 at best . in tissue culture they routinely run 4.5 to reduce biological contamination. there is no issue with trace minerals until 7.5 when chelated mineral will drop out . now ph is logarithmic meaning it is x10 per point up or down .6 is 10x more acid than 7 .5 is 100x .that also means it takes thst much chemical reactivity. it take 10x more acidity to go from 6 to 5 . .in water ph buffering is the calcium and magnesium carbonate or water hsrdness
agsin now, having been producing on a large scale for 20 of those 30 years I can give anecdotal evidence that the ph is the last issue. salt buildup in the medium is responsible for the vast ( 80%+) of all issues relating to nutrient. the nutrient formulas are mostly the same . a nitrogen to potassium ratio of 1 to 1 and a potassium to nitrogen ratio of 1.5 to 1 ( misconception that bloom is more phosphorus . it is defined by a minimum of 1.5 to 1 K to N . phosphorus is raised by 20% at most ) .
I can provide my own formulas i have made and used for 30 years. costs about 10$ to make 20 liter 100 to 1 concentrate.
my average yields with no supplement, addictive, training techniques, special lights co2 on a simply drip water in promix or flood drain in nft and rockwool was between 1 lb to 1.25 lb per 4x4 area with a 600 hps .I actually did a bit better as we had them on movers and averages that with what would have been closer to 300watt average

Only ph swing in soil does not change by 1.0 in 24 hrs.... if it does you will have issues there also.

Agree to disagree.

I pulled over 2lb from a 4x4 with a 6ft height limitation.

Agree with your ratios though and way to much P being used. Often creates uptake issues of other nutrients.

But the PH swing yeah I dont agree. Thats a stressor. But I do agree they are available over a much wider range.

On that note it makes a huge difference of the grow conditions and especially light and intensity. The faster the growth the more dialed in. A 600w HID over a 4x4 is not really pushing them to hard IMO

 

[johnsmith_559]

the standard ec for fast growing plants from most agricultural sources and personal experience is 1700 Us. in lower light conditions it is generally raised to 2500 to offset the lower transpiration rates . the higher the light level the lower EC . if it transpires faster you lower the ec the lower you raise it. the ec level can be compared to atmospheric pressure . if the psi is too high or low the present minerals will not be absorbed properly.
water based feed 1700 microsemiens Us
soiless mixes 1200 microsemeins.
waste is 25 to 50% higher.
in recirculating systems it is just maintained and changed weekly .

 

[johnsmith_559]

if you can get that , that is amazing.

Only ph swing in soil does not change by 1.0 in 24 hrs.... if it does you will have issues there also.

Agree to disagree.

I pulled over 2lb from a 4x4 with a 6ft height limitation.

Agree with your ratios though and way to much P being used. Often creates uptake issues of other nutrients.

But the PH swing yeah I dont agree. Thats a stressor. But I do agree they are available over a much wider range.

On that note it makes a huge difference of the grow conditions and especially light and intensity. The faster the growth the more dialed in. A 600w HID over a 4x4 is not really pushing them to hard IMO

if you can get 2 lb per 600 watt that is amazing. at 1.25 lb that is 2.1 lb a 1000 watt . I was able to maintain 2.75 lb per 1000 watt by reducing th light needed to provide it but th yield per sq ft did not change just the light to get it .we maxed out at anut 35 gram per sq ft.
we used sea of green were we planted 21 day old cuttings directly on the table into 4" cubes flowersd flowers immediately that was 98 cutting per 600 per 4x4 flood table. we we were able 5o provide cutting for 10 flowering lights from 1 1000 veg for mothers and clones . because the cuttings were young they did not need full light. our tables were set up as a 4x16 ' table. used movers and only needed to use 2x600 for the 1st 2 weeks then 3x600w for th next 2 weeks. full 4x600 for 4 weeks then back to 2x 600 for 2 weeks leach with lure water. we got roughly 6 lb . we did not get more with more light but able to reduce light to get the same. 6 lb per 1760 watt mean average put us around 2.8 lb per 1000 watt with a 10 to 1 bloom to veg .
about 24 lb from 11000 watt total light including veg evey 10 weeks flower with no down time .

it's not the 3.3 lb per 1000 w you were able to do but we were happy with it

 

[Aqua Man]

the standard ec for fast growing plants from most agricultural sources and personal experience is 1700 Us. in lower light conditions it is generally raised to 2500 to offset the lower transpiration rates . the higher the light level the lower EC . if it transpires faster you lower the ec the lower you raise it. the ec level can be compared to atmospheric pressure . if the psi is too high or low the present minerals will not be absorbed properly.
water based feed 1700 microsemiens Us
soiless mixes 1200 microsemeins.
waste is 25 to 50% higher.
in recirculating systems it is just maintained and changed weekly .

Why change weekly? I think thats a bad way to go about it from a professional standpoint.

Also the grows in a hobby area are usually very high light. Add to that the effect of room temps, root temps, leaf temps, RH and generally speaking most here experience high transpiration rates.

This is 2 weeks of growth in a 4x4. The transpiration rates were so high i was pulling over 5 gal a day from the dehuey and likewise adding back. If you doubt the growth you can go to my old journal. I'm simply responding to your statement of what and how you have grown. Not trying to discredit your info. I agree with a lot of what you say. Just may help you see that I also know a few things about DWC/RDWC

Like I say you cannot blanket things in growing and each situation is unique. While I agree those conditions work for some they absolutely won't for others and understanding relationships of all the moving parts is key to getting each room to its potential.

 

[Aqua Man]

if you can get that , that is amazing.

if you can get 2 lb per 600 watt that is amazing. at 1.25 lb that is 2.1 lb a 1000 watt . I was able to maintain 2.75 lb per 1000 watt by reducing th light needed to provide it but th yield per sq ft did not change just the light to get it .we maxed out at anut 35 gram per sq ft.
we used sea of green were we planted 21 day old cuttings directly on the table into 4" cubes flowersd flowers immediately that was 98 cutting per 600 per 4x4 flood table. we we were able 5o provide cutting for 10 flowering lights from 1 1000 veg for mothers and clones . because the cuttings were young they did not need full light. our tables were set up as a 4x16 ' table. used movers and only needed to use 2x600 for the 1st 2 weeks then 3x600w for th next 2 weeks. full 4x600 for 4 weeks then back to 2x 600 for 2 weeks leach with lure water. we got roughly 6 lb . we did not get more with more light but able to reduce light to get the same. 6 lb per 1760 watt mean average put us around 2.8 lb per 1000 watt with a 10 to 1 bloom to veg .
about 24 lb from 11000 watt total light including veg evey 10 weeks flower with no down time .

it's not the 3.3 lb per 1000 w you were able to do but we were happy with it

In fairness mine was LED but only run about 500w but that still puts out a shot ton more light than a 600w HID so not really a fair comparison on my part.

 

[AnselAdams]

How we looking haven't posted in awhile. Should I wait for more pistals to turn orange before checking the trichomes? Any clue on how much longer? Here's the 3 leaf mystery plant too lol its a monster on resin production

Looking good. You still have a ways to go. Too much white still showing.

 

[johnsmith_559]

In fairness mine was LED but only run about 500w but that still puts out a shot ton more light than a 600w HID so not really a fair comparison on my part.

how much light t do they put out ? I have been trying to get someone to do a light reading on one . do you have one going ? I would like a standard light meter test on foot candles. a free meter app is available from app store
I want test done at 1 ' intervals. out to 4 ' . I have been told all sorts of crazy stuff about how they put put " special " light and they won't read. that is dumb. foot candle meters read total photons. they doen4 really care what color they are .( too bad people could not be more like light meters lol ) par meters are supposed to read color but when you actually get into the parts that they are made from they get less exciting. any ph ec , light , or humidity meter you can make from tiny chips small ths. arduino on Ebay for several for a dollar . all reading no matter what the scale ( light ec ph whatever) are turned into millivolts so the chip can read and give you a number.
I would appreciate it if you could please

 

[Aqua Man]

how much light t do they put out ? I have been trying to get someone to do a light reading on one . do you have one going ? I would like a standard light meter test on foot candles. a free meter app is available from app store
I want test done at 1 ' intervals. out to 4 ' . I have been told all sorts of crazy stuff about how they put put " special " light and they won't read. that is dumb. foot candle meters read total photons. they doen4 really care what color they are .( too bad people could not be more like light meters lol ) par meters are supposed to read color but when you actually get into the parts that they are made from they get less exciting. any ph ec , light , or humidity meter you can make from tiny chips small ths. arduino on Ebay for several for a dollar . all reading no matter what the scale ( light ec ph whatever) are turned into millivolts so the chip can read and give you a number.
I would appreciate it if you could please

I can hit higher than sunlight over 130k but not evenly over a canopy and would fry them. At 80% about 2 foot over i will easily pull 65-75k lux and that about the max before I stress the plants hard.

 

[Aqua Man]

how much light t do they put out ? I have been trying to get someone to do a light reading on one . do you have one going ? I would like a standard light meter test on foot candles. a free meter app is available from app store
I want test done at 1 ' intervals. out to 4 ' . I have been told all sorts of crazy stuff about how they put put " special " light and they won't read. that is dumb. foot candle meters read total photons. they doen4 really care what color they are .( too bad people could not be more like light meters lol ) par meters are supposed to read color but when you actually get into the parts that they are made from they get less exciting. any ph ec , light , or humidity meter you can make from tiny chips small ths. arduino on Ebay for several for a dollar . all reading no matter what the scale ( light ec ph whatever) are turned into millivolts so the chip can read and give you a number.
I would appreciate it if you could please

I also agree lux work pretty well for full spectrum... good enough for us anyhow. It's the blurple led with more light closer to the end of red and blue thats an issue reading with lux. Basically low and high ends of par are a challenge for lux.