Dwc woes - constant failure

[hm7]

In 10 years ive nev
I too have never run live or sterile temp always around 68.
View attachment 1288573

Awesome - you're a pro who has things figured out and working flawlessly for them - I'm glad to see it. You're very fortunate. If we could all be so lucky :D It must have been all that extra calmag! :D

 

[hm7]

Exactly… and bacteria occur naturally… its kind of a crap shoot and temp has very little to do with which bacteria take hold but rather the speed at which they reproduce. There are often reasons we dont think of for a result and often assumptions can be wrong. Hell tap water containers most often now chloramines which if doing a water change often actually can act as a sterilizer Which is not often considered. By inoculating we give the bacteria we want a head start to colonize and outcompete other species

But the subject can go much much deeper

I think a lot of people luck out just having a lot better environments too, mainly those who have basements/areas that are very stable year round. Unfortunately, I don't have a basement here, only a crawlspace which is absolutely not clean enough to utilize. I'm sure being in a cooler place with a cement floor would help tremendously.

The room I'm in is attached to the rest of the house, and it's older so it's lacking in insulation, etc. The temps/humidity/etc are far from what I'd call stable - especially this time of year with things transitioning from Summer into Fall.

 

[Aqua Man]

Yeah, I'm fully aware the gas exchange happens at the surface. It was one of the key reasons I tried originally to go with my venturi idea on this build. My understanding is, the smaller the bubbles and more surface area they physically cover - the better the exchange.

Can you please elaborate and go into a bit more depth on your separation of o2 molecules and how you do that and deliver it into your nutrient system? I'm intrigued. I would absolutely love to remove these air stones from my system. I tried waterfall for a bit, but it was incredibly noisy, and also ran into the same issue I did with the venturi - it seemed to provide sufficient amounts of DO, however the hydroton near the bottom of the net pot remained too dry and I was losing plants to the roots drying out in-between top waterings by hand.


I expect the venturi method would work very well, were I to build/incorporate some sort of automatic timed top-feeder though - but again, tradeoffs with noise.


Sounds good on the stones - I'm actually running those large cylindrical ones already, so I should be good once the new air pump comes. I'll probably bump the number of air stones up from 1 to 2 per bucket though, just to be safe. I currently have 2 in my large res - contemplating bringing that to 4 total, and getting another one of these larger pumps, but we'll see how this one performs in the buckets first.

I can’t go into too much detail of how im doing it. But after i get moved ill pick it back up and get working on production model for sale. It has the ability to increase the air above the water to over 90% oxygen and also is fed directly into the nutrient solution. This changes the equation of henrys law and raises the maximum saturation level of dissolved oxygen. Much like how we increase co2 in the atmosphere, I can do the same for the dissolved o2 in the rootzone increasing oxygen availability beyond our current limitations.

@Moe.Red is also taking advantage of this using fogponics with very high levels of o2 in the rootzone. Its all still in the early stages of development and while i was hooing to be ready by Christmas it may be a bit later before i have production models ready. He is also creating the tech to drive these systems and pretty dam close to be able to monitor and control all grow parameters. You may want to head over there if it interests you


Top feeding should only be about a week if they are kept healthy can add a week if they struggling a bit. Then like i say once a week to keep things in order. I think you’d be well served in trying to get a taller res to keep water level up to ideal levels. But thats not a must you just need to adjust is all.

The smaller bubbles themselves don’t equate to more air contrary to what many think and information on the web. They do provide better water column mixing though which aids in gas exchange.

 

[Aqua Man]

I think a lot of people luck out just having a lot better environments too, mainly those who have basements/areas that are very stable year round. Unfortunately, I don't have a basement here, only a crawlspace which is absolutely not clean enough to utilize. I'm sure being in a cooler place with a cement floor would help tremendously.

The room I'm in is attached to the rest of the house, and it's older so it's lacking in insulation, etc. The temps/humidity/etc are far from what I'd call stable - especially this time of year with things transitioning from Summer into Fall.

Your absolutely right… if it affects plant health then it’s definitely a contributing factor

 

[hm7]

I can’t go into too much detail of how im doing it. But after i get moved ill pick it back up and get working on production model for sale. It has the ability to increase the air above the water to over 90% oxygen and also is fed directly into the nutrient solution. This changes the equation of henrys law and raises the maximum saturation level of dissolved oxygen. Much like how we increase co2 in the atmosphere, I can do the same for the dissolved o2 in the rootzone increasing oxygen availability beyond our current limitations.

@Moe.Red is also taking advantage of this using fogponics with very high levels of o2 in the rootzone. Its all still in the early stages of development and while i was hooing to be ready by Christmas it may be a bit later before i have production models ready. He is also creating the tech to drive these systems and pretty dam close to be able to monitor and control all grow parameters. You may want to head over there if it interests you


Top feeding should only be about a week if they are kept healthy can add a week if they struggling a bit. Then like i say once a week to keep things in order. I think you’d be well served in trying to get a taller res to keep water level up to ideal levels. But thats not a must you just need to adjust is all.

The smaller bubbles themselves don’t equate to more air contrary to what many think and information on the web. They do provide better water column mixing though which aids in gas exchange.

Gotchya! Sounds very cool, I'm certainly intrigued! Reminds me a bit of some of the 'o2 emitters' I've seen floating around. They looked promising at first, but when measured with DO equipment, fell incredibly short of what they were advertising. Whatever you're doing, seems to be far more refined and sounds like it's working well! I'll be looking forward to seeing more details at a later date ;)

Yeah, this was my first system I designed and built. It's assembled, not leaking, and otherwise doing what it's supposed to for now. I also designed a built-in drain/refill mechanism into the system which has been working flawlessly. IF (HA!) I can manage to get a grow or two finished - then, I absolutely want to tear the system apart and rework a few things - an even larger (and taller) res is absolutely in order. I also want to design more of a modular system that can be disassembled/cleaned/reassembled as far as the return piping goes too, as right now it's all permanently glued together, plus I want to upgrade to 4" piping and bulkheads from the 3" I'm currently using. Hindsight is always 20/20 ;)

 

[Aqua Man]

Gotchya! Sounds very cool, I'm certainly intrigued! Reminds me a bit of some of the 'o2 emitters' I've seen floating around. They looked promising at first, but when measured with DO equipment, fell incredibly short of what they were advertising. Whatever you're doing, seems to be far more refined and sounds like it's working well! I'll be looking forward to seeing more details at a later date ;)

Yeah, this was my first system I designed and built. It's assembled, not leaking, and otherwise doing what it's supposed to for now. I also designed a built-in drain/refill mechanism into the system which has been working flawlessly. IF (HA!) I can manage to get a grow or two finished - then, I absolutely want to tear the system apart and rework a few things - an even larger (and taller) res is absolutely in order. I also want to design more of a modular system that can be disassembled/cleaned/reassembled as far as the return piping goes too, as right now it's all permanently glued together, plus I want to upgrade to 4" piping and bulkheads from the 3" I'm currently using. Hindsight is always 20/20 ;)

Yeah the emitters seperate oxygen from the water molecules not actually add to it but they microbubbles fool the o2 sensors into reading as dissolved oxygen. This started in the aquarium hobby and after years the gimmickry was exposed so looks like they moved over to the grow market with the falsehood. Good move for profits and what better place to toss a gimmick at then cannabis… the industry is 90% gimmick as is lol.

Not to mention they are very poorply suited to saline water and the plates break down leaching heavy metals through the process even more so in saline water.

 

[smokedareefer]

Awesome - you're a pro who has things figured out and working flawlessly for them - I'm glad to see it. You're very fortunate. If we could all be so lucky :D It must have been all that extra calmag! :D

Not a pro. Always learning.

Heres my attempt.

Edit: your plans need calmag!

Defoliate side by side comparison small trees

It was suggested to me by a fourm member to do a side by side comparison. My system 13 gal rdwc , current culture Tangerine tonic a clementine gmo cross. I grew 4 of these out the last round and the day i flipped them to flower i cut clones from what i considered the best of the 4. Here she is...

www.thcfarmer.com

 

[hm7]

Not a pro. Always learning.

Heres my attempt.

Edit: your plans need calmag!

Defoliate side by side comparison small trees

It was suggested to me by a fourm member to do a side by side comparison. My system 13 gal rdwc , current culture Tangerine tonic a clementine gmo cross. I grew 4 of these out the last round and the day i flipped them to flower i cut clones from what i considered the best of the 4. Here she is...

www.thcfarmer.com

Great man. Once again, congratulations on having a super successful, flawless grow sans any issues or problems, and without the need to run either sterile or bennies - you win the prize!

I'll be sure to give my 'plans' some more calmag per your excellent, and exceptionally helpful advice throughout my tribulations! Thank you.

 

[smokedareefer]

Great man. Once again, congratulations on having a super successful, flawless grow sans any issues or problems, and without the need to run either sterile or bennies - you win the prize!

I'll be sure to give my 'plans' some more calmag per your excellent, and exceptionally helpful advice throughout my tribulations! Thank you.

Something you'll learn over time is that every grow will have issues.

Welcome to the forum

 

[Moe.Red]

Something you'll learn over time is that every grow will have issues.

Welcome to the forum

Very true. I've never been perfect. Always something. But that's how you learn.

 

[hm7]

I'm not here seeking perfection. That's unrealistic; I'm not naive enough to expect that, especially given my inexperience with growing in general.

Encountering and learning to deal with and correcting small issues here or there is one thing, and I expect there to be small bumps along the way. However, these aren't small bumps I'm continuously encountering. This is constant flat-out and successive hard-failure month, after month, after month - with me trying various things to compensate and correct for suspected areas causing these failures with no improvement to be seen or found.

That's why I'm here - to try to figure out the underlying reasons for these dying off every single time after a couple of weeks of otherwise 'decent growth'. For the life of me, I can't get past this current point.


Looking at the girls tonight - they're continuing to look rougher and rougher. If I don't see any visible improvement tomorrow, I'm going to call this another loss, sterilize everything and start over....again.

 

[Aqua Man]

I'm not here seeking perfection. That's unrealistic; I'm not naive enough to expect that, especially given my inexperience with growing in general.

Encountering and learning to deal with and correcting small issues here or there is one thing, and I expect there to be small bumps along the way. However, these aren't small bumps I'm continuously encountering. This is constant flat-out and successive hard-failure month, after month, after month - with me trying various things to compensate and correct for suspected areas causing these failures with no improvement to be seen or found.

That's why I'm here - to try to figure out the underlying reasons for these dying off every single time after a couple of weeks of otherwise 'decent growth'. For the life of me, I can't get past this current point.


Looking at the girls tonight - they're continuing to look rougher and rougher. If I don't see any visible improvement tomorrow, I'm going to call this another loss, sterilize everything and start over....again.

Its not my grow but may I suggest you give it more time. Reduce the light as much as possible and just give it time. im almost certain they will come around. Young plants are the most susceptible to issues… i think if you just give it some time they will come around.

Often we do to much to try and fox things instead of just going easy on them and letting then pull through…. More plants die to love than neglect and the simplest way is usually the best way.

i can almost certainly say that they needed more time in the starters to develop more roots before being put into the system and that’s likely a large part of the issue. Combined with driving them with a bit to much light.

Im almost certain if you allow them to really fill the starters with roots the transition will be much easier as they will be more established to start

 

[hm7]

Its not my grow but may I suggest you give it more time. Reduce the light as much as possible and just give it time. im almost certain they will come around. Young plants are the most susceptible to issues… i think if you just give it some time they will come around.

Often we do to much to try and fox things instead of just going easy on them and letting then pull through…. More plants die to love than neglect and the simplest way is usually the best way.

i can almost certainly say that they needed more time in the starters to develop more roots before being put into the system and that’s likely a large part of the issue. Combined with driving them with a bit to much light.

Im almost certain if you allow them to really fill the starters with roots the transition will be much easier as they will be more established to start

The lights have been dimmed down for over a day now to 25%.

Strawberry (the smaller/younger of the two) doesn't look horrible, but bubblegum really isn't looking great. the 1st node leaves are pretty much completely crunchy, and the 2nd nodes are now starting to do the same thing - spot and crunch up. Won't be anything left on her to photosynthesize with in a couple of days, unless she starts growing again.

I'm not using any sort of starters though. I was running into far more, and much earlier failure when I was using rooters or rockwool - they were always just too wet or too dry. I've read a lot of people having success just going straight into the hydroton - so that's what I'm trying now, hoping to eliminate another potential point of problems. I was concerned keeping them in the cloner (with unchilled water) was going to lead to an increase in root rot / ph issues too, so I tried to keep their stay in that as brief as possible (5 days).


I'm just having a hard time waiting when - especially the one - looks as bad as she does. I've lost so much time now on countless failed attempts, that it's just driving me crazy.





Where exactly are you putting these 'starters' and how are you handling that before the transplant into the netpot? At this point, I have this immobile system in a 3x3 tent, and my cloner - and that's it. I don't have a whole lot of extra space for anything else unfortunately. I could try keeping them in the cloner longer, but again, with that water not being in the chiller, it's going to get hot, and I tried to remove them before when the roots were fully submerged in the cloner (instead of hanging in the air getting misted). How long should they remain in there?

 

[Aqua Man]

The lights have been dimmed down for over a day now to 25%.

Strawberry (the smaller/younger of the two) doesn't look horrible, but bubblegum really isn't looking great. the 1st node leaves are pretty much completely crunchy, and the 2nd nodes are now starting to do the same thing - spot and crunch up. Won't be anything left on her to photosynthesize with in a couple of days, unless she starts growing again.

I'm not using any sort of starters though. I was running into far more, and much earlier failure when I was using rooters or rockwool - they were always just too wet or too dry. I've read a lot of people having success just going straight into the hydroton - so that's what I'm trying now, hoping to eliminate another potential point of problems. I was concerned keeping them in the cloner (with unchilled water) was going to lead to an increase in root rot / ph issues too, so I tried to keep their stay in that as brief as possible (5 days).


I'm just having a hard time waiting when - especially the one - looks as bad as she does. I've lost so much time now on countless failed attempts, that it's just driving me crazy.





Where exactly are you putting these 'starters' and how are you handling that before the transplant into the netpot? At this point, I have this immobile system in a 3x3 tent, and my cloner - and that's it. I don't have a whole lot of extra space for anything else unfortunately.

Give it time you’ll be surprised… without starters they need much more too watering… there is no one way to do things so you need to adjust to your methods. In using no starters you have nothing to retain some moisture so top watering is now a crucial part… they have some stored energy and will put all energy into roots and new growth. Top water as often as you reasonably can as you will not be able to over water them in that setup but you can definitely under water.

just need to limp them across that line and then they will come around.

this is not criticizing in any way shape or form but its common for people to make a lot of drastic changes when they have an issue. My advice is stick out your decisions and make them work by making small adjustments.

As i said previously if you let the plants root longer in a starter they will have much much less difficulty and that may have been the major contributing factor to your issues. But thats not the situation for now so imo lets try to work through this and get you across that line. Dont be discouraged and dont think for a second that a lot of ppl dont have all these problems. Conquering them will make you a much better grower and have a mich better understanding.

IMO you can only become a better grower through learning how to deal with as many issues as possible and gain the understanding as to why they happened.

just because someone has a perfect looking grow does not make them a better grower or more knowledgeable.

Think of it this way… someone who has grown for 20 yrs. the exact same way with the same results has 1 grows experience repeated for 20 yrs.

Someone with 5 years of growing changing grow methods, nutrients, environment etc each grow will have far more knowledge and experience. Even though they may not have the perfect looking grow they are far more likely to have much more knowledge and understanding.

if you not making mistakes or having challenges…. Your not learning

 

[Aqua Man]

However if you decide to start over and would like some walk through help if this doesn’t work out for you.… seeing your determination and frustration i’d glady take some time to help you through it if you like.

But i really feel you should give these a week or touch more. Things take time to fix and once a leaf is damaged the olant will continue to abort it. So you wont see improvement in existing growth and will have to wait for new growth to see if your efforts are paying off and thats going to take a week or so

 

[hm7]

Give it time you’ll be surprised… without starters they need much more too watering… there is no one way to do things so you need to adjust to your methods. In using no starters you have nothing to retain some moisture so top watering is now a crucial part… they have some stored energy and will put all energy into roots and new growth. Top water as often as you reasonably can as you will not be able to over water them in that setup but you can definitely under water.

just need to limp them across that line and then they will come around.

this is not criticizing in any way shape or form but its common for people to make a lot of drastic changes when they have an issue. My advice is stick out your decisions and make them work by making small adjustments.

As i said previously if you let the plants root longer in a starter they will have much much less difficulty and that may have been the major contributing factor to your issues. But thats not the situation for now so imo lets try to work through this and get you across that line. Dont be discouraged and dont think for a second that a lot of ppl dont have all these problems. Conquering them will make you a much better grower and have a mich better understanding.

IMO you can only become a better grower through learning how to deal with as many issues as possible and gain the understanding as to why they happened.

just because someone has a perfect looking grow does not make them a better grower or more knowledgeable.

Think of it this way… someone who has grown for 20 yrs. the exact same way with the same results has 1 grows experience repeated for 20 yrs.

Someone with 5 years of growing changing grow methods, nutrients, environment etc each grow will have far more knowledge and experience. Even though they may not have the perfect looking grow they are far more likely to have much more knowledge and understanding.

if you not making mistakes or having challenges…. Your not learning

I definitely agree with you on all of that, esp learning by failing.

I'm at a point now where I'm afraid to touch them for fear of making things worse, and I'm stuck in between 'leave them alone' or 'try to do something to improve things'. I've been top feeding twice a day since your initial help, but again - as they're continuing to decline, I'm wondering if I'm making the problem better or worse. I'm stuck in that awkward stage of learning where I have enough of a basic understanding of how things are supposed to function, but lack the experience to know exactly what I'm supposed to be doing or not - it's a difficult place to be.

I suppose I'll continue to top feed for a few more days to see if anything comes back. I don't have a lot of hopes for bubblegum, and my concern is if she dies, and strawberry pulls through, I'm not sure if I'll have enough time to start another and get it in without the nutes being too out of whack in the rdwc system with 2 plants so far apart in age?

 

[hm7]

However if you decide to start over and would like some walk through help if this doesn’t work out for you.… seeing your determination and frustration i’d glady take some time to help you through it if you like.

But i really feel you should give these a week or touch more. Things take time to fix and once a leaf is damaged the olant will continue to abort it. So you wont see improvement in existing growth and will have to wait for new growth to see if your efforts are paying off and thats going to take a week or so

I'll try to give them some more time per your recommendation, but if I do start over, I'd absolutely welcome some walk-through help along the way. Clearly, I'm doing things wrong. Thank you for your continued help and patience with me and my frustration ;)

I know the damaged leaves will continue to deteriorate, so that wasn't a surprise, but I was sad to see today that now the 2nd node is starting to look like the first did 3-4 days ago. It tells me the 2nd node is going to undoubtedly wither and crunch up here in a few days time too. I was hoping the 2nd node was going to be okay, just no growth for 3 days or so, then I'd see some again - assuming they would come back, hoping to have corrected the problem before it progressed to additional nodes. I didn't expect to see the next node up start to deteriorate too now.

 

[Aqua Man]

I definitely agree with you on all of that, esp learning by failing.

I'm at a point now where I'm afraid to touch them for fear of making things worse, and I'm stuck in between 'leave them alone' or 'try to do something to improve things'. I've been top feeding twice a day since your initial help, but again - as they're continuing to decline, I'm wondering if I'm making the problem better or worse. I'm stuck in that awkward stage of learning where I have enough of a basic understanding of how things are supposed to function, but lack the experience to know exactly what I'm supposed to be doing or not - it's a difficult place to be.

I suppose I'll continue to top feed for a few more days to see if anything comes back. I don't have a lot of hopes for bubblegum, and my concern is if she dies, and strawberry pulls through, I'm not sure if I'll have enough time to start another and get it in without the nutes being too out of whack in the rdwc system with 2 plants so far apart in age?

The nutrient needs are not nearly as different as you think. They can go the whole grow on the same ratios. Keep it simple and succeed then start to get into the tweaking of nutrients

 

[Aqua Man]

I'll try to give them some more time per your recommendation, but if I do start over, I'd absolutely welcome some walk-through help along the way. Clearly, I'm doing things wrong. Thank you for your continued help and patience with me and my frustration ;)

I know the damaged leaves will continue to deteriorate, so that wasn't a surprise, but I was sad to see today that now the 2nd node is starting to look like the first did 3-4 days ago. It tells me the 2nd node is going to undoubtedly wither and crunch up here in a few days time too. I was hoping the 2nd node was going to be okay, just no growth for 3 days or so, then I'd see some again - assuming they would come back, hoping to have corrected the problem before it progressed to additional nodes. I didn't expect to see the next node up start to deteriorate too now.

Time will tell they maybe make it and maybe not but at this point I wouldn’t toss in the towel yet

 

[smokedareefer]

That's the solution to every problem it seems lol. The issues I'm seeing are undoubtedly due to a root related problem and additionally as Aqua Man said, probably also my light intensity being far too high, not insufficient amounts of cal/mag.

Already have it in there though - first post "Nutes: CalMag and House and Garden A&B AquaFlakes".

How much cal mag?