crom
Cannobi Genetics
Supporter
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- 263
Sooo does that mean that you are part of the 99% or are you the 1%?
Science on loss of vigor over generations of clones?
Sooo does that mean that you are part of the 99% or are you the 1%?
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Ne Obliviscaris
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Part of having 'growing skills' is knowing about the life cycle of the plants you're trying to grow. Like what happens when you clone across many generations. Assuming you know everything important about plant biology makes you a shitty horticulturist, regardless of what you're producing.
On a more positive note, I've got a meeting scheduled with a doctoral candidate in botany this week. Asking about genetic degradation is at the top of my agenda, and I'll post whatever I learn in this thread.
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MIway
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Shit... knew it was TMV... gonna have to just kill em all off now... :evilgrin0040:
purpleberry
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I had a nice cut of Querkle that purpled for me everytime, even in heat it would purple up if left for 9 weeks. I moved on to some other stuff and gave a cut to one guy and two nice mothers to another. The one guy tell me it dont purple up any more, Says it always stays green even in the cold. I figured he mixed cuts up. Then the other guy tells me one mother turns purp and the other stays green, but they are the same. I check out the first guys bud and its the querkle i gave him but green. Crazy that one mutated like that. Im going to try and get a cut of each one and see whats up.
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CannaKings
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- 0
I've heard stories of TGA gear mutating easily from cloning...I'd stay clear of sub's gear, IMHO...
Seamaiden
Living dead girl
- 23,596
- 638
I know that this statement has pissed off a couple of people, but I want to say this much about when I'm dealing with a problem. I start with ME and examine what it is I've been doing or not doing to meet the organism's needs.
But, I think your percentages are way, way off. I know too many people personally who are here (as well as other sites) and have seen what they do, and, much more importantly, have been taught a great deal by them. I feel they know what they're doing and have fantastic growing skills. JMO, of course.
I'm here to learn and help others as best I can. I look forward to reading what you bring back to us. :)
I have a friend who's a chem prof and researcher at UCSC, searching for the origins of life through hammerhead RNA (or something like that), I'll have to see if he'll answer this query because I'm sure he's got a clue.
kootenainatural
Savage
Supporter
- 198
- 43
i think holding moms until you find your preferred method of cloning is crucial and even then haveing the mom around is benificial cause you never know what might happen in the cloning prosses pathegens ph flux heat cold mold stem rot just so many things can go wrong and ya you could pull through this but the damage is done and with out a mother there to rely on you just clone the best of that mess and i know we all do are best but some times these things just get us
but if you keep a mom know that she is life and being confined to a 5gal in the basment for a certaint amount of time can be stressfull think of it like jail
its very traumatic and depressing so i like to set my ladies free every spring
but if you keep a mom know that she is life and being confined to a 5gal in the basment for a certaint amount of time can be stressfull think of it like jail
its very traumatic and depressing so i like to set my ladies free every spring
Blaze
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- 263
LoL sometimes that is true, but only a newbie grower would make a statement like that. Maybe instead of insulting people you could contribute to the discussion. Now if you will excuse me, the adults are trying to talk. Go back to your sand box and play with something shiny OK?
Blaze
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- 263
Was at home sick today so I dug around a bit and found some interesting info on this topic. The theory of "Muller's Ratchet" came up a lot. Here is some info on it:
"Muller's ratchet is a population genetical model that describes the random accumulation of sightly deleterious mutations in finite populations with limited amounts of recombination. If Muller's ratchet operates long enough it can lead to genomic decay that is strong enough to drive a population to extinction. The rate of deleterious mutation accumulation from Muller's ratchet is difficult to predict. Muller's ratchet gets its name from the fact that the loss of fitness in the fittest individuals of a population due to the accumulation of deleterious mutations cannot be reversed, if there is no recombination and no back mutation (like in an asexual population with an infinite genome)"
Asexual reproduction compels genomes to be inherited as indivisible blocks so that once the least mutated genomes in an asexual population begin to carry at least one deleterious mutation, no genomes with fewer such mutations can be expected to be found in future generations (except as a result of back mutation). This results in an eventual accumulation of mutations known as genetic load. In population genetics, genetic load or genetic burden is a measure of the cost of lost alleles due to selection (selectional load) or mutation (mutational load). In theory, the genetic load carried by asexual populations eventually becomes so great that the population goes extinct."
"Muller's ratchet is a population genetical model that describes the random accumulation of sightly deleterious mutations in finite populations with limited amounts of recombination. If Muller's ratchet operates long enough it can lead to genomic decay that is strong enough to drive a population to extinction. The rate of deleterious mutation accumulation from Muller's ratchet is difficult to predict. Muller's ratchet gets its name from the fact that the loss of fitness in the fittest individuals of a population due to the accumulation of deleterious mutations cannot be reversed, if there is no recombination and no back mutation (like in an asexual population with an infinite genome)"
Asexual reproduction compels genomes to be inherited as indivisible blocks so that once the least mutated genomes in an asexual population begin to carry at least one deleterious mutation, no genomes with fewer such mutations can be expected to be found in future generations (except as a result of back mutation). This results in an eventual accumulation of mutations known as genetic load. In population genetics, genetic load or genetic burden is a measure of the cost of lost alleles due to selection (selectional load) or mutation (mutational load). In theory, the genetic load carried by asexual populations eventually becomes so great that the population goes extinct."
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smokestack23
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Hmm!
Well..there we have it. We still have no clue as to how many generations but I'm thinking a LOT.
But it is a scary scenario. I still like my idea of making femmed seeds of the strain and maybe start fresh once every couple of years.
I was glad to hear though that a lot of people don't even keep mums but rather just take cuts before flowering.
Cool beans.
Well..there we have it. We still have no clue as to how many generations but I'm thinking a LOT.
But it is a scary scenario. I still like my idea of making femmed seeds of the strain and maybe start fresh once every couple of years.
I was glad to hear though that a lot of people don't even keep mums but rather just take cuts before flowering.
Cool beans.
NightShift
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I am experiencing what may be a loss of vigor with my strain that I have been growing for 5 years. The nugs are not as dense as they once were and it really breaks my heart. The strain is the pic in my avatar. Complete fire. Some of the best I have ever seen and its a bagseed I popped 5 years ago. I am thinking of selfing the plant with colloidal silver and then find a seed that MIGHT be as good as her. DOUBT it. Anyone have experience with this.
Seamaiden
Living dead girl
- 23,596
- 638
Not I. But I'll help with another bump.
Oregon Panda
- 560
- 93
The cash crop ken shishkaberry cut thats whored around all of oregon is cuts of cuts of cuts since 2002. Its just as wickedly weed-like and vigorous as the first time I grew it 7 years ago.
Its always been my experience that if you take a clone from a shitty plant you have to nurse it back to health, thus its less vigorous. Then when you clone from that plant, its vigor is renewed.
Its always been my experience that if you take a clone from a shitty plant you have to nurse it back to health, thus its less vigorous. Then when you clone from that plant, its vigor is renewed.
dirk d
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why you guys giving treehugger a hard time?? imo he's right lol We first have to understand the basics.. We do NOT clone we take CUTTINGS. Cloning would be done in a petri dish. doubt anyone has a petri dish here lol When you CLONE there is potential genetic degradation. When you take CUTTINGS, it has the exact same genetic makeup as the plant it was taken from. any questions?? lol too early for genetics 101 lol
Seamaiden
Living dead girl
- 23,596
- 638
Once I grasped the difference, dirk, I think I backed off. This is an old thread.
NightShift
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The reason why it may have happened with mine is because I always taking cuttings 2-4 days into flower because of timing issues with veg. Usually I had zero problems but this may have affected the hormones a couple times because the plant had to reveg a little where it starts producing 3 fingered leaves and then becomes healthy again a few weeks later as it goes through its leaf sets.
But somehow over time (5 years) the buds are as good as ever but they don't fit as many grams per jar as they used to. The difference in structure of the bud was not noticable until after everything was dry. The buds are just more airy and I have a lot more trim versus flowers each harvest. To prevent problems from happening in the future with other strains I am going to take top cuttings before they are flipped to the 12/12 cycle.
But somehow over time (5 years) the buds are as good as ever but they don't fit as many grams per jar as they used to. The difference in structure of the bud was not noticable until after everything was dry. The buds are just more airy and I have a lot more trim versus flowers each harvest. To prevent problems from happening in the future with other strains I am going to take top cuttings before they are flipped to the 12/12 cycle.
NightShift
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My density might have just been weakened because I chopped them a little earlier then usual. I am gonna post an update on that in about 9 weeks. Lollipopped them way harder this time also.
dirk d
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Short answer is NO.
Long Answer is NO but health of plant comes into play. Environments change, growers change, lots of variables. But genetically it is Identical as a cutting.
Blaze
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There is evidence that this is not always true. Genetic drift can happen with asexual populations. Over time a cutting may no longer be genetically identical to the original plant.
dirk d
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Nature will always do what it wants... If there was a genetic mutation due to, let's say x-ray exposure or something at some point of a plants life(for example), then yes the cutting will not be genetically identical. But that would really be an external cause of genetic mutation, which I would think more plausible.
and by time are you referring to say 10,000 years? or 1,000,000 years?
