STILL brown roots... sighhhh

[hogan400]

I hear you, maybe you could pm me, maybe not. That being said I use it for other aviary and sterilizing purposes and well understand the consequences of being foolish. lol. I was gonna say safe, but foolish seemed a little more realistic....
I would like to find an inexpensive option to maintain a sterile and bacteria free rez. The price for a gallon of ucroots is a little painful considering how far it goes. Maybe you know what Im saying?

 

[SodaLicious]

d.s, as you probably noticed I am having quite the problem with bacteria and the like. I was curious what you think of clorox ,6% hyper, industrial bleach from the depot or Low? And what usage would you advise? I have read several rates, and came to the conclusion roughly 5ml for 25 gallons? I squashed the zone and h2o2 since neither hasnt done much for me. Im gonna load pics of my rez tonight and you guys will get a laugh. Uv/r.o didnt even clear it up? how common is it or have you had experience with fungus or bacteria in the nutes?

I too was thinking about going with bleach as h202 wasn't doing anything for me, now that the temps are around 62 the h202 seems to be working nicely.

 

[Capulator]

​

Here are all the notes I took on fatmans take regarding using chlorox (bleach) as a disinfectant. Lots of successful farmers using bleach as a sterilizer, and running it in low doses throughout the grow.


"Like I said. The MDS said 5 to 10% Sodium Hypochlorite. Maybe I just got the bad luck of their worse posted MSDS. The calculations are based upon your saying 5.75%. And I calculated based upon 5.75% sodium hypochlorite as chlorox bleach is made with sodium hypochlorite. The calculations merely show that if it is 5.75% sodium chlorite then only 3.9% is actually available as chlorine. I can go to probably 10 differnt sites and be told 10 different amounts in various term as to how much chlorine is in house hold Chlorox Bleach. What I see most often is the number 5.25% on sites that say how to mix chlorox for restaurant surface disinfection. Honestly I don't think Chlorox runs a tight control on the chlorine content of most of their products. As long as they provide the minimum of what they advertise they just plug away with mixing and bottling their at least 50 different products containing sodium hypochlorite. Considering that the caactual material cost of producing their products is their smallest expense I do not think they care a lot.

The ppm concentration is 39675 ppm if the Chlorox was 5.75% sodium hypochlorite. If it was 5.75% aviailble Chlorine then it is 57500 ppm. You want 1 ppm.

That means the Chlorox straight from the bottle will treat either 39675 gallons or 57500 gallons. There are 3785 ml to a gallon. So a ml from the bottle will treat either: (39675/3785) = 10.48 gallons or (57500/3785)= 15.19 gallons As 2 ppm is the maximum allowed residual level of chlorine and the residual is how much is left over after all organics are oxidized that means those water treatment plants started out with adding about 4 ppm. Yes there are that much crap still in our water after water treatment plants are through with it. When who look at a treatment report and it gives a list of things like Bromodichloromethane, Chlorodibromomethane, Chloroform, and Trihalonethanes the ose are all compounds formed by chlorine oxidizing organic compounds in the water.

Many people have used chlororinated tap water on their plants for decades without killing their plants. Chlorine harm to plants iis grossly exaggerated. The commercial green house industry has been using chlorine at the residual 0.5 ppm to 1 ppm rate for decades with the food they grow that we eat. Obviously it is not killing the plants or us. They inject chlorine by auto control to keep the residual level between 0.5 ppm and 1 ppm continously. they do not wait for a problem to arrive first, the use those levels as a preventative against Pythh. So whether 10.48 or 15.19 is the proper number does not matter much as Pythh is easily killed by chlorine at levels as low as 0.2 ppm at tempertures of 75 degrees F. It is even more effective at higher temps but the chlorine out gasses quicker as the temperture increases so it must be added more often.

Personally I would use the 1 ml per 10 gallon number. That means a teaspoon of chlorox straight from the bottle is good for 50 gallons of nutrient water.

The use of bleach is the cheapest aspect of my growing. Thats why I find the cost of retail products sucha s Pythoff so AN ish. Flairform charges something like $10 for a 1 quart bottle of RO water with a few cents of Chlorox added to it sold as Pythoff. Reminds me so much of Advanced Nutrients prices.


I am saying that in reality everyone should shock treat their water with at least a 2 ppm dosage of chlorine before its usage rather than trusting that your water was fully disinfected by the water treatment plant. Water treatment plants disinfect with chlorine at levels need to kill the majority of a ceratin type of intestinal bacteria found in animal and human feces (E Coli), not all other bacteria's or fungi etc. Researchers have found that to kill all Pyth it requires a "residual" doasage of at least 2 ppp be maintained for at least 20 or 30 minutes. Water treatment plants are only reqi uired to treat witha chlorine residual dosage of 0.4 ppm for 20 minutes. They typically only ink ject 2 ppm and almost 75 % of that is used up oxidizing organics in the water. This happens immeditattely upon inject. ie your water arrives with some live Pyth in it usually. Low levels of chloro ine will keep it in small numbers unlees your roots start dying due to low DO and then the low levels ofchlorine are not adequate to keep the low levels of Pyth in check beacuse the low levels are readily used up in oxidizing the dead roots. Therefore you should kill all pyth by adding 2 ppm of chloirine or more say 3 ppm 24 hours before using the water. 30 minutes after adding the chlorine use a small pump in the water or an airstone so the remaining Chlorine will dissipate M Now add 0.5 to 1 ppm of chlorine every two days at least. If yo at any time notice dieing brown roots kick in a single doase at 2 pp. and then go back to the 0.5 to 1 ppm doses. Ant newater you add shouldbe treated with chlorine befiore use. Pyth is not harmful to people so waste water treatment palnts do not disinefct at levels needed to kill Pyth. Pyth is about everywhere there is organic matter, it can also be airborne.


If you have a shallow well you likely will need up to 16 to 20 drops per gallon just to kill the pyth in the water. Then you have to oxidize the dead roots and still have enough remaining ck hlot rine left in thw water to be equivalent to 16 drops per gallon. Without a test kit it would be hard to actually judge the amount required. It will sem like a pain in the ass solution but the best results without a test kit would come from drawing into a seperate container the amount of water your reservoir holds and add 16 drops per gallon to the water. Drain your existing reservoir and add water and 16 drops of chlorine per gallon of water. After this water has run through your system for 30 minutes or so. Drain it and replace with the wother clorinated water. Let it run a half an hour or more before adding your nutrients. Every day for two days after that replace half the water with new water that has has 16 drops per gallon of chlorine added. After that add 8 drops per gallon every other day"

​

 

[Capulator]

Here is another post from "Healer" at ICMAG.


I vote for chlorine as additive of the decade! I've been using it for just a couple of weeks now in the form of 6% sodium hypochlorite bleach, 0.5ml/gallon at each reservoir change and about a teaspoon per 25 gallons every 2-3 days after that and it has made a HUGE difference in my roots' health. They're much stronger, whiter, healthier and growing faster than ever before, despite my reservoir temps running in the mid-high 70's since it's been so hot lately. I've had a springtail infestation for years, which from what I've read aren't a danger to plants but just eat bacteria and dead roots, and their numbers are drastically reduced, almost hard to find any in some reservoirs

 

[hogan400]

Thats a good read, thanks for throwing it here Capulator. I have read dosage rates that were similar, but never this one. Thats a solid plug here in the Uc forums, since many growers are having some similar issues.

 

[desertsquirrel]

Bleach acts a bit differently in the UC then other hydro systems. Total contact all of the time means you need far less then with other media.

UC application rates (as well as toxicity limits) will be far far lower then in other other systems.

 

[Capulator]

Just out of curiousity, in all true hydro systems, don't roots have contact with solution all of the time (in fact Im gonna go ahead and say any grow method)?

Why would it be different in a UC, over say an NFT or 27/7 top feed? I know that you run about 1/2 strength nutes in the UC, and I have run almost 1/4 strength in my MPB with great success, but WHAT is it that makes nutes "more readily available"?

I guess in a UC we would be talking about a chlorine toxicity. At low ppm levels I am not sure why there would be any difference from a UC compared to say, NFT. ut again, that's just speculation, as I do not have a UC system.

The above post talks about "shocking" the water 24 hours before usage with 2ppm of chlorine, meaning you would need a separate holding tank. Then, keeping the levels at .5-1 ppm by adding a little bit every other day straight to the system.

 

[AdvancedBioHydroponics]

Not sure if this information would help, but we used a product called Shiva by Crop Nutrients. It is a 2 part formula that you use from start to finish. it is extremely PURE and uses no ammonia based materials in the formula.

This formula also contains chlorine. On the label it says not more than 2% chlorine.

Both parts A&B are as clear as water. We ran EC/PPM levels as low as 400PPM (.5 x500).

It seems if someone wanted to run sterile these would be the nutrients of choice. They are complete and need no Cal/Mag additive even in 0PPM RO filtered water. Since there is NO ammoniacal Nitrogen or ammonia based calcium in the formula as they use only pharmacy grade materials, there is no need for the nitrifying bacteria that converts ammoniacal nitrogen to nitrate nitrogen.

We noticed that on average most formulas supply at least 25% of the total amount of nitrogen from ammoniacal nitrogen which requires bacteria to be present to break it down or convert it into something the plants can use.

Depending on the system conditions, an outbreak of bacteria can be generated by exceeding amounts of ammonia. It is also non productive to try and run a sterile system using ammonia based materials in the formula since bacteria is needed.

The amounts and concentrations levels in Shiva were higher than any other brand we tried except for maybe Dyna-Gro Bloom formula.

We also found the online calculators for Crop Nutrients were extremely helpful. You can use it to dial all aspects of your growing environment even down to C02 amounts!

What I thought was really cool is that with the nutrient calculator you can enter what your starting water EC/PPM levels are.

From experience in using the UC systems we found that avoiding ammonia based materials seem to be more stable and over all performed better. It seems especially helpful in avoiding pathogens and running a "sterile" system op.

And no I do not work for Crop Nutrients! LOL! We just tried a bunch of different nutrients in the UC system and Shiva was one of the products we tried and it seem to work the best and be complete meaning no additives or PK boosters are even needed, not even Cal/Mag which was a huge part of our nutrient cost that we do not have to purchase.

It was also one of the ONLY formulas we found that contained no ammonia based materials in it at all.

 

[desertsquirrel]

The main reason is because the plants are transpiring 4-5 times more (1-2 gallons per site per day) then MOST of the other systems in question. Same as with a nutrient profile, even at half strength the plants in a UC receive 2X or 3X the dosage because of rapid up-take/transpiration.

 

[Legallyflying]

A simple and effective way to keep things sterile and healthy?? Ummm yeah, get back to me when you find that product

I don't know, I thought about installing a UV sterilizer on my water supply. Seems kind of silly though as the plant roots would have some kind of bacteria in them and that would just get transferred to the system...and there you go, the uv can't be used effectively in the system itself.

 

[AdvancedBioHydroponics]

It is about balance, it is not that you are trying to kill ALL bacteria, you are just trying to kill off bacteria to keep a balance. It is the name of the game.

When you get a over population of bacteria or especially enzymes you are going to have issues that will translate into different problems like root rot, nutrient deficiency, ect.

KISS methods does indeed work well in the UC system.

Using a combination of a RO filter (6 stage) and a Ozone generator (one for air, one for water) we have managed to eliminate several products like H202, and other type sterilizer. No Zone, or any of that stuff is needed.

Using the Shiva 2 part has helped out a lot and pays for itself easy because we no longer need cal/mag or additives when using this formula. And since the formula contains chlorine in the proper amounts it helps to keep things super clean and tidy and the roots shining white!

 

[hogan400]

I ran a Uv for a couple days and it didint help my problem at all. Hows ur roots legalf?

 

[woodsmaneh]

The only issue I have with bleach is the fall out. When I used it I got a white film form on the buckets and it was a bitch to clean off. When dry it was a very fine powder. I have been using zone and no issues but just purchased 10gal of H2O2 35% and am going to try it out. I used H2O2 about 10 years ago but stopped when I went organic.

The issues with uv is they only effect the water that passes through them and your root ball does not do that. I think it's a good idea as it will kill, but more as a preventive measure, but that's the point, to prevent anything from happening, that's why we use Zone, H2O2 and others right.

 

[AdvancedBioHydroponics]

I know I sure do not miss using those products like Zone and H202 and especially purchasing them. Also noticed better plant health and growth over all when we stopped using all those type products.

 

[woodsmaneh]

Well I promised to post some pixs of my roots and just got the upload to work so here they are this is at 9 weeks using DM gold and Big Bud with OoverDrive. I am using RO and no Nutrients in my Auto fill. I did not use any H2O2 only Zone. My roots go in white and come out light brown and they smell great no slime no nothing.

 

[woodsmaneh]

They start out looking like this

 

[AdvancedBioHydroponics]

Looking awesome there woodsmaneh! Completely normal to get some staining from different additives and what not. There is a big difference between root rot and stained roots and you have shown a great example of stained healthy roots!

Great Job!

 

[PButter]

Hey Woodsman, It seems like you are doing just fine as those roots look pretty. I have had issues with a brown slime running sterile and went the ewc tea (or more appropriately, a bacteria based AACT). I had the same slime issues following a certain Heisenburg's recipe. I think that is because he tells you to brew at 'room temp' for 48 hours. If you do some research on straight bacteria based AACT you should be using it at 18-24 hours if brewed at 75 or so. I have my rez set to 65-66 so I brew tea at 66-68 and brew it for about 25 hours on the nose. I brew at colder temps so the bacteria I brew doesn't just fail when I put it into a cold rez, but you should brew just a little longer to make sure the bacteria you have just made have time(at that temp) to eat up the sugar you brewed with. I am going to give it another shot going sterile sooner or later but for now I am having success with the tea. I can't figure out why a 48 hour tea works for some people... 24 works best for me.

PB

 

[AdvancedBioHydroponics]

The longer the brew time the more diversity of different species you get. If you are going for bacteria, then shorter brew times are used, but if your going for diversity OR Fungi then you need to brew for longer. Bacteria multiply very quickly but Fungi do not, they grow instead of multiplying and that takes longer.

 

[woodsmaneh]

Growing Fungi in tea is very hard at best and most times futile. They take forever to grow in water and when you do grow them they get destroyed when transferred. The best way to get them going is in the soil. You should be using worm castings in any tea you make. Here is more info on Fungi and here is where I get my stuff and if your into reading this is a good read

inted with
permission from the author.
How do mycorrhizal fungi work?
Mycorrhizal root systems increase the absorptive the absorbing area of roots 10 to 1000 times thereby greatly improving the ability of the plants to utilize the soil resource. (Figure 4). Mycorrhizal fungi are able to absorb and transfer all of the 15 major macro and micro nutrients necessary for plant growth. Mycorrhizal fungi release powerful chemicals into the soil that dissolve hard to capture nutrients such as phosphorous, iron and other "tightly bound" soil nutrients. This extraction process is particularly important in plant nutrition and explains why non mycorrhizal plants require high levels of fertility to maintain their health. Mycorrhizal fungi form an intricate web that captures and assimilates nutrients conserving the nutrient capital in soils. In non mycorrhizal conditions much of this fertility is wasted or lost from the system.


Mycorrhizal fungi are involved with a wide variety of other activities that benefit plant establishment and growth. The same extensive network of fungal filaments important to nutrient uptake are also important in water uptake and storage. In non-irrigated conditions, mycorrhizal plants are under far less drought stress compared to non mycorrhizal plants. In a recent study, true fir seedlings treated with mycorrhizal inoculum had 43 percent less plant moisture stress than non-treated control seedlings on a droughty, difficult to revegetate site. Tree vigor, color and needle retention were improved with the mycorrhizal treated plants (Figure 5). Rhizopogon mycorrhizae were abundant on the roots systems of the treated plants (Figure 6). Numerous studies have shown Rhizopogon spp. is an aggressive colonizer in non-irrigated and harsh field conditions.

​

Does my soil already contain mycorrhizal fungi?
Soils in natural settings are full of beneficial soil organisms including mycorrhizal fungi. Research indicates, however, many common practices can degrade the mycorrhiza-forming potential of soil. Tillage, fertilization, removal of topsoil, erosion, site preparation, road and home construction, fumigation, invasion of non native plants, and leaving soils bare are some of the activities that can reduce or eliminate these beneficial soil fungi. In many man-made landscapes we have reduced or eliminated the soil organisms necessary for plants to function without high levels of maintenance.
Nursery grown plants available to landscape contractors are often deficient in mycorrhizae. Plants raised in most nurseries receive intensive care and feeding. The artificial conditions, high levels of water and nutrients and sterile soils at the nursery keep certain soil born diseases to a minimum and produce vast quantities of plants for sale. Unfortunately, the high levels of water and nutrients and the lack of mycorrhizae discourage the plant to produce the extensive root system it will need for successful transplantation. The result are plants poorly adapted to the eventual outplanted condition that must be weaned from intensive care systems and begin to fend for themselves. Application of mycorrhizal inoculum during transplanting can encourage plant establishment and set the plant on track to feed for itself. Research studies document the need of plants to generate a mycorrhizal roots system in order to become established. Maintaining intensive inputs is necessary until the extensive root system is achieved . There are practical solutions to some of the mycorrhizal deficiencies in man-made environments and reintroducing mycorrhizal fungi in areas where they have been depleted can dramatically improve plant establishment and growth.

What types of mycorrhizal products are available?
A landscape contractor can enhance plant root growth and transplant success and ameliorate many problems that result from intensive care practices at the nursery. Plants grew and thrived on this planet for millions of years without intensive care. Nature provides the template. A more sustainable approach to plant establishment and growth includes using mycorrhizal fungi.
Certain mycorrhizal spores or "seeds" of the fungus have been selected for their establishment and growth-enhancing abilities. The goal is to create physical contact between the mycorrhizal inoculant and the plant root. Mycorrhizal inoculant can be sprinkled onto roots during transplanting, worked into seed beds, blended into potting soil, watered in via existing irrigation systems, applied as a root dip gel or probed into the root zone of existing plants. The type of application depends upon the conditions and needs of the applicator. Generally, mycorrhizal application is easy, inexpensive and requires no special equipment. Typically for small plants the cost ranges from less than a penny to a few cents per seedling. For larger plants more inoculum is needed and costs are higher.
Mycorrhizal products often contain other ingredients designed to increase the effectiveness of the mycorrhizal spores. For example, organic matter is often added to encourage microbial activity , soil structure and root growth. Stress vitamins improve nutrient uptake and builds root biomass. Water absorbing gels help "plaster" beneficial mycorrhizal spores in close proximity to feeder roots and encourage favorable soil moisture conditions for mycorrhizae to form and grow. Organic biostimulants, in general are effective ingredients in mycorrhizal products. By promoting field competitiveness, stress resistance and nutrient efficiency biostimulants reduce barriers for rapid mycorrhizal formation especially during the critical period following transplanting.

Mycorrhizal diversity is important
Natural areas generally contain an array of mycorrhizal fungal species. The proportions and abundance of mycorrhizal species often shifts following any disturbance. Not all mycorrhizal fungi have the same capacities and tolerances. Some are better at imparting drought resistance while others may be more effective in protecting against pathogens or have more tolerance to soil temperature extremes. Because of the wide variety of soil, climatic, and biotic conditions characterizing man-made environments, it is improbable that a single mycorrhizal fungus could benefit all host species and adapt to all conditions. For example, the types and activities of mycorrhizal fungi associated with young plants may be quite different from those associated with mature plants Likewise, mycorrhizal fungi needed to help seedlings establish themselves on difficult sites may differ from those which sustain productivity over a long-lived plant.
Diversity likely provides a buffering capacity not found on sites with only one or few species. The diversity of mycorrhizal fungi formed by a given plant may increase its ability to occupy diverse below-ground niches and survive a range of chemical and physical conditions.

Conclusions
The lack of mycorrhizal fungi on plant root systems is a leading cause of poor plant establishment and growth in a variety of forest, restoration, agricultural, suburban and urban landscapes. As we develop holistic approaches to understanding man-made environments we must factor in the inseparable connections to soil organisms. Mycorrhizal fungi are one of the more important groups of soil organisms and play a critical role in nutrient cycling, mediating plant stress and protecting against pathogens. They are also cornerstones in the ability of plants to survive transplant shock . Plants have co-evolved mutualistic relationships with symbiotic mycorrhizal fungi such that their survival and fitness depends upon the healthy functioning of these fungi and vice versa. Just as plants invest tremendous capital in the form of energy to fuel below-ground soil organisms, so too we must "look below the surface " to understand and utilize these beneficial fungi.

Dr. Mike Amaranthus spent 20 years with Oregon State University and the USDA Forest Service where he authored over 50 research papers on mycorrhizae. He is a recipient of the USDA Department of Agriculture Highest Honors Award for scientific achievement and has been featured on several major national and international television programs.