Welcome to the Fungal, it gets worse here everyday - Fusarium Solani

[silverhaze]

Silverhaze; Sorry for taking so long to get back to ya.
I run my water through a UV-C light before it gets to the rez. If you run your nutes through it, it will cause Iron,Zinc,and Manganese to drop out of your soup. Ionic makes UV Balance that will stop this but, is not sold in the good ole US of A.
Before I start the next grow I run a shock dose of ozone and as the weather changes I use shorter doses with my girls. DO NOT point the ozone machine directly at the plants, as the extra atom attachés to mold,pollen,dust and settles on the leaves, leaving spots that look like a magnesium deficiency. As Boylobster mentioned, it can dangerous so please do a little research first.

Thanks sonofdust,

So you use both a UV-C and an ozone generator? Is this the kind of UV-C you use?

http://www.horticulturesource.com/product_info.php?products_id=8764

Appreciate your help man.
SH

 

[silverhaze]

No problem Silverhaze, I really hope you manage to get this problem under control. I can imagine how frustrating it must be!

Boylobster is correct in that you should really consider whether you want to use such heavy chemicals or not. They should be a choice of last resort and even then, need careful consideration.

Squiggly has suggested a good approach to dealing with it, although honestly, I would just move to an entirely new place and get new equipment. A fresh start, well removed from all sources of contamination is sure to resolve the problem.

Hey Entropy,

Thanks again for your help and thoughts. As I mentioned in a reply to squiggly, I don't disagree about moving. Not quite as easy as it sounds but I will get something else going soon. In the meanwhile, I want to work this problem out, I just don't want to risk so many plants and so much time. I believe that under the right conditions that I can manage this. It's been a hard year but you all have been very helpful and I hope to find a method that works so I can get back to biz. The spot I've been having trouble with is, otherwise, ideal. Not really a fan of the heavy heavy chemicals so trying to find a way to deal with the room as best I can and work on growing stronger, healthier plants. Really appreciate your thoughts.

SH

 

[Capulator]

Hey thanks Cap,

Yes, the Fusarium was identified as F. Solani. It seems the Oxysporum species is more prevalent in cannabis but mine is definitely F. Solani. That, in itself, doesn't mean a ton to me. Do you know of any differences in the species or dealing with them? Very interested in your findings about trichoderma t-22. Let me know what they say and thanks so much Cap.

SH

I talked to the microbiologist that makes the packs for me and he said that the root pack is the best thing for fusarium sp as far as microbes go. There are several species in there that are effective. However, your experience has shown otherwise. Did you try using the tea at full concentrate? 1tsp/liter is full concentrate.

I didnt get a chance to call abou thte t-22. The label says NOT for use on tobacco, kiwi, barley, oats, apple, chickpea, rice, sugarcane, and mushrooms. I wanted to know why not these plants..

 

[silverhaze]

I talked to the microbiologist that makes the packs for me and he said that the root pack is the best thing for fusarium sp as far as microbes go. There are several species in there that are effective. However, your experience has shown otherwise. Did you try using the tea at full concentrate? 1tsp/liter is full concentrate.

I didnt get a chance to call abou thte t-22. The label says NOT for use on tobacco, kiwi, barley, oats, apple, chickpea, rice, sugarcane, and mushrooms. I wanted to know why not these plants..

Thanks Cap,
I'm not sure if it is fair for me to say that your bennies were totally ineffective as there may have been other things going as well. They will be part of my regimen moving forward anyhow. I was mixing the tea at full strength yes, and in veg, adding alfalfa and worm castings. Let me know when you have a moment to call about the t-22, I am looking forward to that answer as well. I'm getting ready to gear up and get started again so any other advice you can send my way will be very well received. Thanks again,

 

[Capulator]

Thanks Cap,
I'm not sure if it is fair for me to say that your bennies were totally ineffective as there may have been other things going as well. They will be part of my regimen moving forward anyhow. I was mixing the tea at full strength yes, and in veg, adding alfalfa and worm castings. Let me know when you have a moment to call about the t-22, I am looking forward to that answer as well. I'm getting ready to gear up and get started again so any other advice you can send my way will be very well received. Thanks again,

I just got off the phone with Bioworks. Basically t-22 is good for all plants. When the EPA tested it they looked up all the negative literature on trichoderma, and did not distinguish between the many different strains of T. harzianum, So if there was a text stating the slight possibility of trichoderma having any ill effect on a crop they had to state that in their warning label.

The man I spoke with said that they have done field tests with almost all the plants on the warning label, and the plants did much better than the control group. I asked him specifically about MMJ and he was honest and said that a lot of people were using it.

It will help prevent and control fusarium, along with the species I have in the root pack. However, it is better as a preventative (applied early etc) than as a cure.

He recommended two sites to look up pesticides and fungicides.

cdms.com and agrian.com

he also told me that a product named subdue max coupled with t-22 is extremely effective against root pathogens (pyth fusarium, etc)

I looked up subdue and while it seems to be only for ornamentals, there is one page detailing the safe use on basil for retail consumption (in California).

http://www. agrian .com/pdfs/Subdue_MAXX_Section_24c2t.pdf

I dropped a couple spaces in there so it doesn't get invalidated.


Hope this helps. Good luck.

 

[sonofdust]

Silverhaze: I couldn't get that site to load but if its from a water filtration co. most likely the same. Something you may want to keep in mind is the volume of water your going to be running through it. The water has to pass through the light to be affective, the slower the better. I hooker ming up before the a pre-filter and before the RO system. I change out the pre-filter about midway through the grow. I know its over kill but hell its only like $3.00, worth the piece of mind.

 

[entropy99]

Some great info from Cap there.

 

[Capulator]

Silverhaze: I couldn't get that site to load but if its from a water filtration co. most likely the same. Something you may want to keep in mind is the volume of water your going to be running through it. The water has to pass through the light to be affective, the slower the better. I hooker ming up before the a pre-filter and before the RO system. I change out the pre-filter about midway through the grow. I know its over kill but hell its only like $3.00, worth the piece of mind.

you could also try this filter:

http://www.filtersfast.com/Doulton-W9123053-Ceramic-Filter.asp.

just hook it up to the tap.

 

[ethnoman]

If you try out any of these suggestions Silverhaze, let us all know you you go. This can only further the body of knowledge.

 

[silverhaze]

I just got off the phone with Bioworks. Basically t-22 is good for all plants. When the EPA tested it they looked up all the negative literature on trichoderma, and did not distinguish between the many different strains of T. harzianum, So if there was a text stating the slight possibility of trichoderma having any ill effect on a crop they had to state that in their warning label.

The man I spoke with said that they have done field tests with almost all the plants on the warning label, and the plants did much better than the control group. I asked him specifically about MMJ and he was honest and said that a lot of people were using it.

It will help prevent and control fusarium, along with the species I have in the root pack. However, it is better as a preventative (applied early etc) than as a cure.

He recommended two sites to look up pesticides and fungicides.

cdms.com and agrian.com

he also told me that a product named subdue max coupled with t-22 is extremely effective against root pathogens (pyth fusarium, etc)

I looked up subdue and while it seems to be only for ornamentals, there is one page detailing the safe use on basil for retail consumption (in California).

http://www. agrian .com/pdfs/Subdue_MAXX_Section_24c2t.pdf

I dropped a couple spaces in there so it doesn't get invalidated.


Hope this helps. Good luck.

Cap,

This is the most informative and helpful suggestion; man I really, really appreciate it. This is going to be my first try right here. I will research the most effective ways to use these products and give it a good honest try. I don't have any plants running right now so anything I take on will be a new attempt at keeping the f. in check. Therefore, nothing needs to be cured at the moment, I only need the best preventative measures for my new plants moving forward. These are fantastic!

After I feel the room is in order, I am going to start from seed employ all these techniques and will keep a super detailed log as to my efforts.

Thanks again Cap for your research and knowledge. I have to order some new bennies so I'll be in touch. You da man!

SH

 

[silverhaze]

Silverhaze: I couldn't get that site to load but if its from a water filtration co. most likely the same. Something you may want to keep in mind is the volume of water your going to be running through it. The water has to pass through the light to be affective, the slower the better. I hooker ming up before the a pre-filter and before the RO system. I change out the pre-filter about midway through the grow. I know its over kill but hell its only like $3.00, worth the piece of mind.

Good stuff man, thanks.

I will definitely get this, it seems like a very effective tool and I don't think changing out the filter each time is overkill, I appreciate the thought and I'll do it as well. I'm a top feeder and drain to waste so I don't use a ton of water but I will keep your volume thoughts in mind.

best,
SH

 

[silverhaze]

If you try out any of these suggestions Silverhaze, let us all know you you go. This can only further the body of knowledge.

Will do my man,

Planning on using a variety of the suggested cleaning techniques first and then employing Cap's ideas and as I mentioned to him, I will create a very detailed log as to the route I take. I would very much like to find some real solutions and will absolutely share all of my findings with the farm. Hopefully this hell of mine will turn out something positive in terms of help for others.. Thanks for your help.

SH

 

[Boylobster]

Hey, I have one more suggestion for you. Actually, I *had* two, but you already covered the first. They're not genius by any stretch of the imagination, but sometimes the simple lessons are the hardest to learn. Anyway. I've had to remind myself of these over and over again while trying to troubleshoot and optimize the cultivation of various living things.

First, minimize your losses, just as you said. You've been throwing all your eggs into one doomed basket, so just do small, experimental runs until you've got the problem controlled.

The second and more interesting thing is to remember that you can run more than one experiment at once. Remember when I said consider switching your grow platform? This is that in miniature. There's no reason to not have one or two coco pots, one or two organic soil pots, and maybe one or two simple, 5-gallon DWC buckets, all running right next to each other. It's still low maintenance. Run the appropriate preventative measures in each, i.e. Zone in the buckets, etc. Even if you don't switch to one of these other styles of cultivation, any results, positive, negative, or neutral, will tell you a little more about the nature of the problem and what might be more or less effective in combating it.

I'm advocating a diversified portfolio for research purposes, limited in scope, but sufficient for gathering information. Know what I mean? Just a thought, and best of luck, as always.

 

[silverhaze]

Hey, I have one more suggestion for you. Actually, I *had* two, but you already covered the first. They're not genius by any stretch of the imagination, but sometimes the simple lessons are the hardest to learn. Anyway. I've had to remind myself of these over and over again while trying to troubleshoot and optimize the cultivation of various living things.

First, minimize your losses, just as you said. You've been throwing all your eggs into one doomed basket, so just do small, experimental runs until you've got the problem controlled.

The second and more interesting thing is to remember that you can run more than one experiment at once. Remember when I said consider switching your grow platform? This is that in miniature. There's no reason to not have one or two coco pots, one or two organic soil pots, and maybe one or two simple, 5-gallon DWC buckets, all running right next to each other. It's still low maintenance. Run the appropriate preventative measures in each, i.e. Zone in the buckets, etc. Even if you don't switch to one of these other styles of cultivation, any results, positive, negative, or neutral, will tell you a little more about the nature of the problem and what might be more or less effective in combating it.

I'm advocating a diversified portfolio for research purposes, limited in scope, but sufficient for gathering information. Know what I mean? Just a thought, and best of luck, as always.

Hey man,

Yeah, great suggestion and I may not have thought of that so thank you. I think I will do just that and run a few tests simultaneously. The effort now is to find something that works so as we're saying, no point in risking entire crops on it. I will get this figured out and can't thank you enough. I'm going to get started over the break so I'll keep you all posted with my progress.

Please don't hesitate to share if you have any more suggestions and thanks again.

Happy Holidays!
SH

 

[inuyasha]

i also have fusarium. confirmed by a lab test a couple days ago, but i've had it for about four months now. i feel for you silverhaze. i have been growing for 10 years and this is by far the most difficult thing i have ever dealt with.

i can't say i've beaten the stuff yet, but i'm making progress. here are a few notes:

• sterilization ~ great idea in theory, very difficult in practice. i have gone to great lengths to sterilize everything (even replacing pumps/trays/reservoirs/hoses/etc) and the fusarium finds its way into the clean system time and again. i'm not saying don't sterilize, just that i'm beginning to doubt whether this is really a feasible solution for me.

• bleach ~ the most effective mitigation technique i have found so far is to add clorox bleach to my reservoir at a rate of 1 mL/gal with every reservoir change. i have been doing this for the last 2 months and have managed to keep plants alive throughout flowering. yields have been slightly higher than half of my pre-fusarium yields. not sure how this would translate to soil growing, it might be effective only for hydro.

• subdue maxx ~ this might be the solution. i purchased this product a few weeks ago and used it on plants that were so fusarium-infested they were virtually dead (completely wilted with brown mushy roots). i added it to my reservoir one time at a rate of 1 mL/gal (the rate was a complete guess as subdue is not recommended/labeled/tested for hydroponic use). within a week, there were brilliant white roots literally exploding out of my net pots. it's been about 2 1/2 weeks now since adding the subdue, and the roots continue to thrive. unfortunately, the plants were already so gone by the time i added the subdue that i don't expect them to recover (though they might if i give them enough time). this was really just a test to see what would happen. note that subdue is not labeled for use against fusarium (i purchased it when i thought i was dealing with pythium, which it is labeled for).

• other fungicides ~ if the subdue fails to provide a permanent solution, i intend to try other fungicides. eagle 20EW is the only other fungicide on my shelf and it is labeled for fusarium, but i have not tried it yet. bayer makes a product called proline that seems (according to a number of studies -- search google) to be the latest and greatest for battling fusarium in a commercial agricultural context, but i don't know where to get it (or whether it's even available on the market yet). heritage is another fungicide that supposedly provides excellent fusarium control and is probably what i would have purchased instead of subdue if i had known i had fusarium rather than pythium. note that all these fungicides are systemic (they stay in the plant for various lengths of time -- usually not more than 60 days) so they should never be used during flowering or within 60 days of harvest.

silverhaze - PM me if you want me to send you some subdue maxx. i bought a quart of it for like $250 which is probably at least a lifetime's worth, so i would be happy to send you some if you want to give it a try.

 

[silverhaze]

i also have fusarium. confirmed by a lab test a couple days ago, but i've had it for about four months now. i feel for you silverhaze. i have been growing for 10 years and this is by far the most difficult thing i have ever dealt with.

i can't say i've beaten the stuff yet, but i'm making progress. here are a few notes:

• sterilization ~ great idea in theory, very difficult in practice. i have gone to great lengths to sterilize everything (even replacing pumps/trays/reservoirs/hoses/etc) and the fusarium finds its way into the clean system time and again. i'm not saying don't sterilize, just that i'm beginning to doubt whether this is really a feasible solution for me.

• bleach ~ the most effective mitigation technique i have found so far is to add clorox bleach to my reservoir at a rate of 1 mL/gal with every reservoir change. i have been doing this for the last 2 months and have managed to keep plants alive throughout flowering. yields have been slightly higher than half of my pre-fusarium yields. not sure how this would translate to soil growing, it might be effective only for hydro.

• subdue maxx ~ this might be the solution. i purchased this product a few weeks ago and used it on plants that were so fusarium-infested they were virtually dead (completely wilted with brown mushy roots). i added it to my reservoir one time at a rate of 1 mL/gal (the rate was a complete guess as subdue is not recommended/labeled/tested for hydroponic use). within a week, there were brilliant white roots literally exploding out of my net pots. it's been about 2 1/2 weeks now since adding the subdue, and the roots continue to thrive. unfortunately, the plants were already so gone by the time i added the subdue that i don't expect them to recover (though they might if i give them enough time). this was really just a test to see what would happen. note that subdue is not labeled for use against fusarium (i purchased it when i thought i was dealing with pythium, which it is labeled for).

• other fungicides ~ if the subdue fails to provide a permanent solution, i intend to try other fungicides. eagle 20EW is the only other fungicide on my shelf and it is labeled for fusarium, but i have not tried it yet. bayer makes a product called proline that seems (according to a number of studies -- search google) to be the latest and greatest for battling fusarium in a commercial agricultural context, but i don't know where to get it (or whether it's even available on the market yet). heritage is another fungicide that supposedly provides excellent fusarium control and is probably what i would have purchased instead of subdue if i had known i had fusarium rather than pythium. note that all these fungicides are systemic (they stay in the plant for various lengths of time -- usually not more than 60 days) so they should never be used during flowering or within 60 days of harvest.

silverhaze - PM me if you want me to send you some subdue maxx. i bought a quart of it for like $250 which is probably at least a lifetime's worth, so i would be happy to send you some if you want to give it a try.

Hey Inuyasha,

Man, thanks so much for this. I'm so glad to meet up with someone who actually knows they have this - not that I'm happy that you have it of course. Two big thumbs up for the subdue Max, I'll send you a pm about that as well. I do know the product and how rudely expensive it is. Do you know which species of Fusarium you have, and, do you happen to know if there are any known differences as far as treating say the f. oxysporum vs. the f. solani? Have you been able to identify where yours came from or is coming from?

I hear you about sterilization. I have cleaned and cleaned and cleaned and this, by itself, is not going to fix our issue, I totally agree. I've done all the things you have here as well.

Did you happen to read Cap's post to me from above? In it, he mentions this:

"a product named subdue max coupled with t-22 is extremely effective against root pathogens (pyth fusarium, etc)".

I have called around unsuccessfully to find t-22 but I am still looking. The bioworksinc website lists t-22 as being available to my state, just haven't found how to buy it yet. I have also found a product (or was suggested by someone here, can't remember) called "Mycostop" which is said to:

Control or suppression of many root rot and wilt pathogenic fungi. Pythium, Fusarium, Alternaria, Phomopsis, Rhizoctonia, Phytophthora, Botrytis. Plants often respond with increased vigor and yield, like a vitamin boost. Safe to apply. Organic approved. Non- phytotoxic. Use on all crops such as vegetables, herbs, ornamentals. Easy application. Small packets store for 1 yr. when frozen.

This product is only about $40. I think we should run a few of these products to test and don't know if you use Beneficials of not but Cap's are great and I will be adding them to my regimen as well.

So have you begun any new plants from a clean slate and what are you trying this time out?

Thanks so much once again for your help. Talk soon,

SH

 

[inuyasha]

Do you know which species of Fusarium you have, and, do you happen to know if there are any known differences as far as treating say the f. oxysporum vs. the f. solani?

the lab that tested my plants said they couldn't distinguish between different types of fusarium without doing something called sequencing. i have asked them to do this, but it looks like it will take another couple of weeks at least. they implied that treatment strategies should be essentially equivalent regardless of which type of fusarium it is.

Have you been able to identify where yours came from or is coming from?

good question. i *think* it came from some clones i purchased and failed to adequately quarantine, but i can't really be positive about that. i can be fairly certain that it didn't come from the building itself (as you suggested for your situation). my operation is in the basement of a relatively new house (built 1996) and there were absolutely no signs of dampness or anything else (let alone having been used for growing) when i moved in. plus i was growing here for over five years without a problem before the fusarium showed up. i suppose it could possibly have come from my water supply but, again, i have been using the same unfiltered city water for the last 5 years without ever having had a problem before.

it would be nice to know with certainty where the fusarium came from, but i feel like if i can find an effective method of eradication (using fungicides or otherwise), this will be somewhat of a moot point. i mean, i would much rather have a way of dealing with it but not know where it was coming from than vice versa.

I have called around unsuccessfully to find t-22 but I am still looking. The bioworksinc website lists t-22 as being available to my state, just haven't found how to buy it yet. I have also found a product (or was suggested by someone here, can't remember) called "Mycostop" ... This product is only about $40. I think we should run a few of these products to test and don't know if you use Beneficials of not but Cap's are great and I will be adding them to my regimen as well.

i haven't used either the t-22 trichoderma or the mycostop. my understanding is that both of these products are biological control strategies (i.e. - living organisms that feed on or otherwise suppress the bad organisms). biocontrols haven't really been a viable option for me since bleach and H2O2 (the only things keeping my plants alive) would just kill the biocontrols. however, if subdue (or another fungicide) continues to be effective in keeping the fusarium out of the roots, perhaps i can stop using the bleach/H2O2 and give one or more of these biocontrols a try. same story with beneficial bacteria.

So have you begun any new plants from a clean slate and what are you trying this time out?

just got new clones a couple days ago. i have distributed them among 3 (heavily cleaned and sterilized) independent systems, each with its own reservoir. i added subdue maxx (.5 ml/gal) to two of the systems and eagle-20EW (.5 ml/gal) to the third. i am also using a light dose (2 ml/gal) of H2O2 in all three systems but no bleach (i prefer to avoid the bleach unless necessary, especially with younger plants). everything is looking good so far; i will keep you updated.

-inuyasha

 

[inuyasha]

also, speaking of biocontrols and beneficial bacteria, you might look into bacilus subtilis. it was highly recommended for fusarium control by the woman who did my lab testing, but i haven't tried it yet myself (for the reason given above).

 

[Boylobster]

also, speaking of biocontrols and beneficial bacteria, you might look into bacilus subtilis. it was highly recommended for fusarium control by the woman who did my lab testing, but i haven't tried it yet myself (for the reason given above).

Haze, inuyasha, a couple questions for you guys: first, any updates? Second, can either of you recommend a lab where a lobster from the Far North could send water or root samples for pathogen analysis? I've never done such a thing before.

I'd like to establish what, specifically, is attacking my plants, because it's now in both my rooms, and I'm certain that it starts on the mother. :( The other room is brand-new, only in it's second run, and is now exhibiting the exact same symptoms we've all experienced. Boo.

Thanks for all the information you've shared, and I hope you've both started to turn the proverbial tide.

Cheers,
BL

 

[Capulator]

Hey Inuyasha,

Man, thanks so much for this. I'm so glad to meet up with someone who actually knows they have this - not that I'm happy that you have it of course. Two big thumbs up for the subdue Max, I'll send you a pm about that as well. I do know the product and how rudely expensive it is. Do you know which species of Fusarium you have, and, do you happen to know if there are any known differences as far as treating say the f. oxysporum vs. the f. solani? Have you been able to identify where yours came from or is coming from?

I hear you about sterilization. I have cleaned and cleaned and cleaned and this, by itself, is not going to fix our issue, I totally agree. I've done all the things you have here as well.

Did you happen to read Cap's post to me from above? In it, he mentions this:

"a product named subdue max coupled with t-22 is extremely effective against root pathogens (pyth fusarium, etc)".

I have called around unsuccessfully to find t-22 but I am still looking. The bioworksinc website lists t-22 as being available to my state, just haven't found how to buy it yet. I have also found a product (or was suggested by someone here, can't remember) called "Mycostop" which is said to:

Control or suppression of many root rot and wilt pathogenic fungi. Pythium, Fusarium, Alternaria, Phomopsis, Rhizoctonia, Phytophthora, Botrytis. Plants often respond with increased vigor and yield, like a vitamin boost. Safe to apply. Organic approved. Non- phytotoxic. Use on all crops such as vegetables, herbs, ornamentals. Easy application. Small packets store for 1 yr. when frozen.

This product is only about $40. I think we should run a few of these products to test and don't know if you use Beneficials of not but Cap's are great and I will be adding them to my regimen as well.

So have you begun any new plants from a clean slate and what are you trying this time out?

Thanks so much once again for your help. Talk soon,

SH

hey brother I got mine from johnnys selected seeds online. Its called rootshield home and garden.