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Welcome to the Fungal, it gets worse here everyday - Fusarium Solani

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Man I was just reading somewhere about how plants communicate with each other through chemical signals sent through the the root zone as well as through the air. If a plant is being attacked, it will send a signal to alert the plants in the area. This alert will in turn cause the plants to exude certain foods that are known to attract specific bacteria, the same bacteria that fight off whatever infection is attacking the plant that is alerting the others.

Trippy shit that none of us really fully understand yet. Apparently mycorrhizae are also responsible for facilitating the communication through the underground network of roots.
Absolutely true.

As a dude who understands biochemistry--this is not really all that surprising to me.

It probably wasn't surprising to the researchers who found it--they went looking for this because the rest of biochemistry sort of predicts it.

There is SIGNIFICANT inter, intra, and extra cellular signaling that happens in an organism.

We have observed this in all matter of bacteria for instance. Have you ever noticed how a bacterial infection has a very sudden onset of symptoms?

It's because the colony doesn't turn on its "attack" until they have reached a certain prerequisite numbers (I won't get into how this works, but its also some pretty basic biochem crap).

This is all over the place in biology.

Did you see the article about roots "talking" to each other with clicks, Cap?

That one was kinda strange. In terms of this hive or "colony" behavior though, its not really surprising at all.

It's mostly thought, in fact, that any species that didn't have this hard-coded wouldn't have lived to see today. There is a real need for this innate "hive" preservation response for a species to succeed.

Parents defend their young, and so on. It takes many forms but its all the same.

The first bacteria in the body doesn't start going nuts and killing shit right away and eating away at flesh--it wants to reproduce and give its genes the best chance to move on. If it goes into full attack mode, and a macrophage kills it--then it just ended its whole line.

To preserve its species niche it waits until its numbers are very high and then flips the switch.

There may have been subspecies who flipped the switch too soon or too late that are no longer with us. Its thought that these hive defenses are VERY well adapted and it is necessary that they be so for species success.

Maybe we beat out neanderthals because they didn't really give too much of a shit about each other. Or didn't protect their young as voraciously.
 
I appreciate the warning, and usually I share your disdain for pesticides. I absolutely do not want to endanger anyone that consumes my product. However, Subdue Maxx seems to be pretty safe. This article indicates that the fungicide degrades after 21 days:
http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/subdue_maxx_receives_24c_special_local_needs_label_to_control_downy_mildew

...and here's the MSDS for Subdue, not too scary:
http://files.tlhort.com/msds_labels/4415-subdue_maxx_dec_09.pdf

I can't find the link now, but I also found a link to a page saying that metalaxyl (active component of Subdue) was NOT known to the state of California to cause cancer, illness, etc., which is surprising. If anyone has reason to believe that Subdue might be .

Sorry, but this is BS! Systemically working fungicides are one of the biggest problems we have when it comes to hormonal disbalances etc. FUNGICIDES, EVEN THE "HARMLESS" ONES STAY FOREVER IN TRACES IN THE PLANT. Even when the manufacturer tells you it disappears after 4 weeks it is ABSOLUTELY NO NO to smoke these plants. When smoked nobody knows what efects these poisons have on a human body. :eek:

This became a real problem here in netherlands: fungicide remains in weed and we had to develop tests in the Coffee Shops to get this weed off the market.
 
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Sorry, but this is BS! Systemically working fungicides are one of the biggest problems we have when it comes to hormonal disbalances etc. FUNGICIDES, EVEN THE "HARMLESS" ONES STAY FOREVER IN TRACES IN THE PLANT. Even when the manufacturer tells you it disappears after 4 weeks it is ABSOLUTELY NO NO to smoke these plants. When smoked nobody knows what efects these poisons have on a human body. :eek:

This became a real problem here in netherlands: fungicide remains in weed and we had to develop tests in the Coffee Shops to get this weed off the market.
Hm. Well... I can't have that. But I also need to know whether or not that's true. Capulator and several others have recommended Subdue Maxx as a solution. If we're honest, however, it seems safe to say that the claimed half-life of metalaxyl in plant tissue may viewed with suspicion. That does *not*, however, mean that it's incorrect. So what are we to do? What I want is accurate information, not wild accusations and alarmist rhetoric.

dutchman, can you hook us up with any links about the problems experienced in the Netherlands? Anything that cites lab tests, has numbers, names base compounds, etc? And that's not a challenge, by the way - I'm really looking to learn, here. Better yet, could you set me up with a lab that would test for the presence of metalaxyl in a finished product? That might actually be the way to go.

A lot of people may come across this thread looking for solutions to root infection, so I think this is an important topic. My Subdue Maxx is on the way, and now I'm being strongly urged not to deploy it by some. Can anyone more knowledgeable weigh in? The following links are the most informative I've found so far regarding metalaxyl, and in my opinion, they indicate that it is likely quite safe. If you actually bother to browse the second link (it's *long*), you can see that very little of the compound or its metabolites do seem to be present 21 days after application. They don't include values for periods of up to 60 days, our flowering cycle. It's used on food crops all over the world, including Germany, where I was given to understand that public health standards are quite strict? Anyway. Whether we trust these sources or not will likely be a matter of dispute.

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/haloxyfop-methylparathion/metalaxyl-ext.html

http://www.fao.org/ag/AGP/AGPP/Pesticid/JMPR/Download/2004_eva/MetalaxylM.pdf

Silverhaze, I apologize; I feel as though I'm inadvertently jacking your thread. :(
 

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
6,091
313
Hm. Well... I can't have that. But I also need to know whether or not that's true. Capulator and several others have recommended Subdue Maxx as a solution. If we're honest, however, it seems safe to say that the claimed half-life of metalaxyl in plant tissue may viewed with suspicion. That does *not*, however, mean that it's incorrect. So what are we to do? What I want is accurate information, not wild accusations and alarmist rhetoric.

dutchman, can you hook us up with any links about the problems experienced in the Netherlands? Anything that cites lab tests, has numbers, names base compounds, etc? And that's not a challenge, by the way - I'm really looking to learn, here. Better yet, could you set me up with a lab that would test for the presence of metalaxyl in a finished product? That might actually be the way to go.

A lot of people may come across this thread looking for solutions to root infection, so I think this is an important topic. My Subdue Maxx is on the way, and now I'm being strongly urged not to deploy it by some. Can anyone more knowledgeable weigh in? The following links are the most informative I've found so far regarding metalaxyl, and in my opinion, they indicate that it is likely quite safe. If you actually bother to browse the second link (it's *long*), you can see that very little of the compound or its metabolites do seem to be present 21 days after application. They don't include values for periods of up to 60 days, our flowering cycle. It's used on food crops all over the world, including Germany, where I was given to understand that public health standards are quite strict? Anyway. Whether we trust these sources or not will likely be a matter of dispute.

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/haloxyfop-methylparathion/metalaxyl-ext.html

http://www.fao.org/ag/AGP/AGPP/Pesticid/JMPR/Download/2004_eva/MetalaxylM.pdf

Silverhaze, I apologize; I feel as though I'm inadvertently jacking your thread. :(
I do not view this as a thread jack. I think Silverhaze would agree. It's all about finding safe solutions as a community, and I feel you are adding good info.
 

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
6,091
313
Hey Dutchman, thanks! I've been looking for a strain suggestion like this so thanks, again and I will absolutely try that strain. My walls are covered with Panda but I can and will spray every inch of the room before starting again. Will be coming up again soon and let you all know about my progress. Thanks so much!

SH

P.S. Sorry you're dealing with this shit too..
from seeds. wow. that is a shitter.
 
HCan anyone more knowledgeable weigh in? The following links are the most informative I've found so far regarding metalaxyl, and in my opinion, they indicate that it is likely quite safe. If you actually bother to browse the second link (it's *long*), you can see that very little of the compound or its metabolites do seem to be present 21 days after application. They don't include values for periods of up to 60 days, our flowering cycle. It's used on food crops all over the world, including Germany, where I was given to understand that public health standards are quite strict?

Anyway, it is bad enough these poisons are used on regular foods and make people sterile and babyless. People with money can afford to buy organic stuff.

But on weed? You must be kidding?`NOBODY knows the effects when the poisoned plants are smoked. It is deep within the cellular structure of the weed. Not only on the outside as in apples. Here it is a NONO even for commercial growers to do that. If they are caught with that by testing they are out of business, you understand? Even Aliette use in the first week is not ok for people here to prevent root rot. Fungicides and pesticedes are not made for smoking.

It was a big issue here some years ago and then the coffeshops developed test kits for that shit. They say it can mess up your brain if you smoke fungicide shit.

If you can not find a solution with copper or sulfur you HAVE to throw away plants, desinfect your house and start with a new strain. Usually this shit comes fron the soil or walls etc

That is all I have to say.

BTW: clones of the heavily infected plants suddenly started growing again and they seem to be ok. So you never know with this fungi...
 
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Anyway, it is bad enough these poisons are used on regular foods and make people sterile and babyless. People with money can afford to buy organic stuff.

But on weed? You must be kidding?`NOBODY knows the effects when the poisoned plants are smoked. It is deep within the cellular structure of the weed. Not only on the outside as in apples. Here it is a NONO even for commercial growers to do that. If they are caught with that by testing they are out of business, you understand? Even Aliette use in the first week is not ok for people here to prevent root rot. Fungicides and pesticedes are not made for smoking.

It was a big issue here some years ago and then the coffeshops developed test kits for that shit. They say it can mess up your brain if you smoke fungicide shit.

If you can not find a solution with copper or sulfur you HAVE to throw away plants, desinfect your house and start with a new strain. Usually this shit comes fron the soil or walls etc

That is all I have to say.

BTW: clones of the heavily infected plants suddenly started growing again and they seem to be ok. So you never know with this fungi...
Allllllright... look, I want this discussion to remain civil, but I have to admit, I am troubled by your posts.

That is all I have to say.
Fair enough, and that's your choice, but I don't think it's all you *should* have to say. You've made a lot of serious accusations about some proposed solutions to this problem, and you've alluded to possible alternatives and tests available in the Netherlands. Please, provide details. As I said at the beginning, I'm on your side, man. I've no love for poisons of any kind. I'm also not looking for an argument - what I'm looking for is information. You speak as though you have some. Please share.

If this has been a serious issue in Amsterdam (that is, pests and pathogens, and the lengths people will go to eliminate them), how have people gone about dealing with these problems? I asked you already for more information on the test kits you mention, and I'd still love to hear more about that. I'm sure lots of people here would - even people who only consume cannabis would be interested in such a thing. Consumers could benefit greatly from a reliable test for the presence of systemic toxins, especially here in the States.

You mention copper and sulfur-based treatments. I can Google as well as the next guy, but since we're here already, are you thinking of something specific? Are there non-systemic treatments that have been seen to work well in Holland and meet the approval of the coffee shop vendors? Specific products, maybe, that have a good reputation for safety *and* effectiveness?

You must be kidding?
No, I'm not kidding. Did you read the links I posted? I ask all of this because you are cautioning (and I use that term generously) people in extremely strident terms about the treatments we're considering. That's fine, but did you see how this thread started? Silverhaze has cleaned, and replaced, and re-surfaced, and cleaned, and cleaned *again*, to no avail. For people like me, I doubt very much that I could adequately sterilize my growing area even if I threw out every piece of equipment I have, and moving is NOT an option. So what are we to do? Just clean, chuck all our gear out every run, and try a new strain from seed every three months until something doesn't die halfway through flower? I'm sorry, but there have to be better options. It sounds as though you live in a place where this problem has been addressed without the use of systemic fungicides - please share. Specifics.
 
Fair enough, and that's your c

Look, I know your situation. You most probably have a commercial grow that will be lost....

Anyway, there is NO CURE for fusarium at least with organic fungicides. Here they use some Trichoderma and other stuff to build up the plants like
Saprol S, that contains Ascophyllum nodosum, Laminaria, Aminoacids, but it simpy won't help you with your Fusarium problem....

You can choose: destroy your plants, desinfect EVERYTHING, find out the cause of that disease and start with a fungi resitant strain as kali Mist, Northern Lights 2, Double Fun etc.or you have to use a mix of the worst fungicides, systemic and non-systemic like maneb etc. pp, I have seen this, you will have to harvest your plants with double gloves and a minimum yield.

I am no coffeeshop owner, I am no seller, I am no commercial grower, but I know.....

contact the coffeshops like greenhouse.nl who raised awareness about that shit and the important growers here like sensi or Dutch Passion etc or no mercy.

It is a very simple choice: discard your Fusarium plants and begin new and clean grow or spray your plants with a mix of poison and take the karma and the risk, man.....But I will not help you with poison.....:oops:
 
Look, I know your situation. You most probably have a commercial grow that will be lost....

Anyway, there is NO CURE for fusarium at least with organic fungicides. Here they use some Trichoderma and other stuff to build up the plants like
Saprol S, that contains Ascophyllum nodosum, Laminaria, Aminoacids, but it simpy won't help you with your Fusarium problem....

You can choose: destroy your plants, desinfect EVERYTHING, find out the cause of that disease and start with a fungi resitant strain as kali Mist, Northern Lights 2, Double Fun etc.or you have to use a mix of the worst fungicides, systemic and non-systemic like maneb etc. pp, I have seen this, you will have to harvest your plants with double gloves and a minimum yield.

I am no coffeeshop owner, I am no seller, I am no commercial grower, but I know.....

contact the coffeshops like greenhouse.nl who raised awareness about that shit and the important growers here like sensi or Dutch Passion etc or no mercy.

It is a very simple choice: discard your Fusarium plants and begin new and clean grow or spray your plants with a mix of poison and take the karma and the risk, man.....But I will not help you with poison.....:oops:

What I forgot: If you just want to DO SOMETHING: apply copper and sulfur fungicides avalaible where you live suitable for vegetables on your plants in a combo. It is of no use telling you brand names from here. Just check it out wehre you live. It is easy, ask for vegetable suitable copper and sulfur in your garden shop. Maybe a miracle happens!!!

If you find a cure for Fusarium already in your plants I will ask the Queen to give you the highest Orde van Oranje-Nassau ;-))
 
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Absolutely true.


To preserve its species niche it waits until its numbers are very high and then flips the switch.

There may have been subspecies who flipped the switch too soon or too late that are no longer with us. Its thought that these hive defenses are VERY well adapted and it is necessary that they be so for species success.
Interesting. I had always thought when the switch was flipped, it was as more of a stress component that set out the attack.
 
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Interesting. I had always thought when the switch was flipped, it was as more of a stress component that set out the attack.
It can be. Very little in biology/biochemistry is one-dimensional. Especially when it comes to signaling.

Here is ONE signaling pathway (EGFR signaling pathway) Almost every item you see here is a singular individualized protein:

 
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Are you sure the Fusarium Solani isn't a symptom of a larger problem?
The second pic in post #16 (After the roots) looks awfully like Off-gassing syndrome.
 
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What I forgot: If you just want to DO SOMETHING: apply copper and sulfur fungicides avalaible where you live suitable for vegetables on your plants in a combo. It is of no use telling you brand names from here. Just check it out wehre you live. It is easy, ask for vegetable suitable copper and sulfur in your garden shop. Maybe a miracle happens!!!

If you find a cure for Fusarium already in your plants I will ask the Queen to give you the highest Orde van Oranje-Nassau ;-))
Thanks for obliging, man. I appreciate it. Thanks for the strain suggestions, and Dutch Master Zone (here in the U.S.) uses a Copper Sulfate formula. I'd still like to hear about how to test for systemics in plant tissue though. ; )
 
Thanks for obliging, man. I appreciate it. Thanks for the strain suggestions, and Dutch Master Zone (here in the U.S.) uses a Copper Sulfate formula. I'd still like to hear about how to test for systemics in plant tissue though. ; )
Yes, cool man. Just start all over if I were you....

And it is http://greenhouseseeds.nl/ not greenhouse.nl
There you may ask about the testing because as ar as I remeber they started with that issue years ago
 

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
6,091
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Thanks for obliging, man. I appreciate it. Thanks for the strain suggestions, and Dutch Master Zone (here in the U.S.) uses a Copper Sulfate formula. I'd still like to hear about how to test for systemics in plant tissue though. ; )

Just have another idea: try Fosetyl for watering your plants if you do not care for a minor poisonous fungicide
 
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Was the Fosetyl used from the 'Aliette' brand of fungicide by Bayer? Thanks Dutchman,
Yeah, Googling indicates that Fosetyl is the active in the brand-name product Aliette. But Dutchman, I thought you said Aliette was one of the products the all the shops in the Netherlands were testing for and refused to carry?
 
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Yeah, Googling indicates that Fosetyl is the active in the brand-name product Aliette. But Dutchman, I thought you said Aliette was one of the products the all the shops in the Netherlands were testing for and refused to carry?
BL, have you also seen/heard of "No Fungus" from Greenway? Same company that makes "no Powder Mildew" and "No Spider Mites". Their product says:

16 Gallon Concentrate- No Fungus™ 16 gallon Concentrate is perfect for larger gardens and a great value. No Fungus™ is perfect for attacking your downey mildew, fusarium, anthracnose, phytophora, wiltering disease on your garden.
 

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