Cheap alternatives to overpriced hydroponic nutrients

Surfandgrow said:

My experience with Jacks:

Id keep the formula the same except 1.8 grams on the cal nit. As long as the salts dont get wet they will last for years in the home depot 5 buckets with spin tight lids. I went with all food grade salts they are one step better quality above greenhouse grade. This formula will work all the way through from veg through flower. I mixed in 40 gallons worth of nutes in 55 gallons of water to dilute the solution slightly. Your plants will tell you what they need if you know how to read them. Dissolve Jacks then epsom and then booster and lastly the cal/nit. I would use seagreen every thursday and ogbiowar tea every monday. Foliar your veggies with these as well. The bloom booster should be uses at half strength during week 4 and again at 3/4-full strength during weeks 6-8. Water till it flows out of the bottom of the container. Coco holds on to Jacks like you wouldnt believe. Honestly though if your nutrient bill is that low for a year I wouldnt worry about your cost as much as I would worry about its quality and what it does for your bud. Maybe Canna or H & G would cost you more but you will probably get better results. If you want quality you only need to run an A, B and cal/mag and your plants will do great.

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And you have how many runs with Jr peters? 1?

Give me a break homie. Can you talk to us a little about raw salts since you are so knowledgeable on the subject, and can you also quantify how coco "holds on to jacks like you wouldn't believe"?

cool, thanks for being a dick cap. Ive got 2 runs through and all though thats not a lot it was enough to do some experimenting. I ran my tests and kept notes on the results from 9 different strains. I dont claim to be an expert you can take my info for what it is but if you dont agree at least say why? By the way my local hydro shop just started brewing their own teas and they are better and cost less then ogbiowar I guess that little comment was the push I needed to make the switch.

MrBanjo said:

I'm thinking about making the switch to Jacks pro, the formulas I've read have varied quite a bit, but I was going to go with the basics per gallon:

3 grams Jacks hyrdo
2 grams Jacks calcium nitrate
1 gram Epsom salt
.5 gram of Jacks blossom booster (starting at three weeks flower)

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I'm going to mention some tips that may improve your next cycle while using JPH or any salt based fertilizer for that matter. Some of this may be redundant but it's worth a refresher.

1. If you are mixing a reservior above 50 gallons then use 1.8 grams of Calcium Nitrate like surf and grow said. Two grams of calcium nitrate per gallon (and this is the perfectionist talking inside me) is slighty to much- and I mean near negligible which is why it's totally cool to use the 3-2-1 method with smaller rez mixing. But, if you mix large rez's on the regular then the slight miscalculation starts to snow ball into imbalance of soil chemistry. A.K.A nitrogen stuffed plants A.K.A Dark Green Monsters
2. .5 Grams of Jacks Blossom booster is not needed. I have done more than 2# a light with JPH and Cal/Nit @ 1.5-1.8 EC. What you really need to understand is how to throttle the EC of your fertilizer during different stages of growth depending on nutrient uptake. Some plants will respond to high EC like Sour Diesel. Some plants feed on the lighter side like Bubba Kush. This brings us to our next quick tip..

3. "I watch my runoff like a F***** Hawk." -Jack Mayoffer
The qoute above should be written in the wisdom of a soiless hydroponic grower handbook. This quick tip requires an EC meter. Take a sample of your runoff and stick the meter into it. Remember to keep the media EC between 1.5-1.8 (depending on plant) and you should achieve great results. If you take notes through your grows this data needs to be a top priority. It lets you keep track of how your plants are uptaking the salts in the media and it tells you how to dail in your feeding programs. What also goes hand in hand with this behavior is ample runoff.

MrBanjo said:

Does it matter which brand of Epsom salt I purchase?

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Yes and no. I've been using walgreens brand epsoms because its on my way to work and its cheap. What I prefer is a brand that dissolves quickly because at the moment its the only salt compound that I don't make stock solutions with and I dissolve it everytime I mix a rez.

A few things I've encountered that I'd like to mention and this is an observation that I've made in my room that may not apply to everyone using JPH.
The nitrogen levels of JPH and hot rooms and cause some plants to stretch beyond thier means. This past july was a record breaking time for high temperatures around the globe and my room was no exception despite oversized AC units. I've seen this with my headband strain which will stretch into week 4 of bloom (this bitch is crazy). The nitrogen levels seems to be a double edged sword in that some plants do better with it than others. Jack Herrer is a nitrogen loving plant and it will bring the most fabulous terp profile when using JPH to feed it. Not to toot my own horn here but I've been told by one dispensary that it was the best Jack Herrer he's ever seen and I accredit that to the JPH formula working so well on that particular strain.
Just thought I'd share.

I guess what I should have said is that coco naturally contains high levels of potassium. High levels of potassium cause calcium and magnesium not to be absorbed or lock out. More calcium and magnesium must be added to the formula to combat potassium levels. If You are using Jacks and are not adjusting your cal/mag then you will not get optimal yields. The Jacks is already very high in potassium and is not designed for coco its designed for a true hydro system. It works great in rockwook as I have seen and smoked some pretty impressive OG grown by a well know farmer on this site using Jacks. Also if you dont flush the medium with enough nutrient runoff it will leave the extra potassium behind and start to cause problems along the way. With the Jacks I was always having to test my EC going in and going out. It was a daily routine trying to figure out how to keep the numbers from climbing so hi. It wasnt really worth the time and effort it took to try to dial it in. All the extra runoff I had to use made me feel like I was flushing money down the drain. Same strains different nutes better results, much better. I still use the Jacks but mostly for my Bonsai it works great in my Japanese Clay. I might run a few tests with it and some big bud and MKP now that I have an amazing looking GSC plant. It made my GDP look smell and taste better then it ever had but it wasnt as dense. Im curious what it will do to my girl scout.

krinen said:

Due to Coco's ability to hold on to salts and the build up properties of Jack's, what EC would you recommend in a flood and drain situation. I was running about a 1.4EC, everything looks great, although I am not seeing the weight pack on like I did in a top feed.

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Ebb and Flow is it's own beast and requires special attention to certain areas. Like media saturation- which is controlled by how long and often you water the plants with your timer. I prefer to use coco amended with perlite in Ebb and Flow and pure coco with top feeding plants. Just because I like to automate the Ebb and Flow frequently to ensure media saturation (And I've noticed that Ebb and flow can take a slightly heavier feeding 1.9 EC) but I also need the roots to be aerated as well. Smart pots and/or fabric bags are ideal for not getting coc0/perlite everywhere.

Honestly, I just wrapped up a round with Jacks in straight Canna coco in beds AND I continue to feed my mothers with a hodge podge of Jack's Hydro and some random Micro I got from cutting edge. I know my ratios were off and I didn't run enough water through each bed to get adequate run off but my secret weapon.....Sea Green. The fulvic source in Sea Green allowed me to run salts at an all time high and I saw ZERO issues. One of my mother plants normally got 750ppm she now, consistently, receives 1100-1200ppm with my maintenance dose of sea green and she's loving it.

That's in a 10 gal pot...and was 2 weeks ago, she has sense doubled.

@GR33NL3AF Nice mother shot. You're associated with MonsterGardens, right? I've gotten some great info from your videos, thanks man. How do you feel about Nectar of the Gods? The video was very informative, albeit over my head somewhat.

Surfandgrow said:

cool, thanks for being a dick cap. Ive got 2 runs through and all though thats not a lot it was enough to do some experimenting. I ran my tests and kept notes on the results from 9 different strains. I dont claim to be an expert you can take my info for what it is but if you dont agree at least say why? By the way my local hydro shop just started brewing their own teas and they are better and cost less then ogbiowar I guess that little comment was the push I needed to make the switch.

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You're welcome. Your post made it look like you were just throwing farts to the wind.

Like I said, it's not the jacks. How is it that so many others have great success, but then you have stunted plants? I tried to tell you to lower your ppms and water to more runoff. Small buds means too much nutes in my experience. Doesn't matter what line you run.

If you are running drain to waste you can use a lot less food, and yes you have to water to runoff every time, just like every other substrate or yes you can experience lock out which will lead to problems.

And yes coco is known to hold on to K. IMHO the most important part of this thread is learning how to mix your own salts, not necessarily using jacks. If you go back in this super long thread to the beginning it will take a turn towards that. Once you can work a nute calculator, you will quickly figure out that jacks does not quite have the flexibility you need to dial shit in. You need a few more salts.

MrBanjo said:

@GR33NL3AF Nice mother shot. You're associated with MonsterGardens, right? I've gotten some great info from your videos, thanks man. How do you feel about Nectar of the Gods? The video was very informative, albeit over my head somewhat.

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Thanks bro,

Yes, I am associated with them and we have a very close relationship with Scott the man behind the Nectar and if you do have the time his (2) videos totaling about 30 minutes are WELL worth the watch, very informative. Not to mention you get this vibe from Scott that most love, he is a straight shooter.

The key points I tell customer's is this:
-It takes ALL the guess work out of nutrition
-You produce a 100% Organic product
-Only about 6-7 bottles are truly necessary in achieving A+ product with a comparable synthetic yield
-No more ppms

I've literally seen product come from HORRIBLE grower's that was top notch when switched to this line.

That being said I don't personally run the entire line, I can't justify the cost (even with my discount) on a large scale grow. My regimen is similar to Caps, synthetic base with Nectar additives.

Stayed tuned on the videos, we have some really cool stuff in the works!

I am currently using Jacks for my current run. I will chime in in another 50 days LOL

This is my first go with JR Peters, however I have heard nothing but positive feedback from other farmers I know that use it. FWIW

Capulator said:

If you go back in this super long thread to the beginning it will take a turn towards that. Once you can work a nute calculator, you will quickly figure out that jacks does not quite have the flexibility you need to dial shit in. You need a few more salts.

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Lets get it going again cap. I'd love to talk about nutrient profiles for cannabis in coco. Or is that a thread some where else already? What is your ideal nutrient profile for coco and/or soiless media in general?

This is nMeeks formula, he's posted it several times here in his grow logs:

At the following rate, you get roughly 740ppm in 1 gallon of RO, which is what I am feeding in veg and flower right now:

2.44g Cal-Nit
1.6g Epsom
1.33g MKP
0.1g MOST
0.1g Fe (not necessary but helps raise brix/sugar level in final product)

and I add it to my reservoir in this order (with a cup of water to dissolve each dry nutrient before adding):

MKP
stir
MOST + Fe
stir
Epsom
stir
Cal-Nit
stir
Check ppm and pH to 5.5-5.8 (this mix is perfect for my water and I have not had to do much pH adjustment at all!)

So I've been using the 3/1.8/1 ratio and its working well for me. I notice alot of you guys are doing coco, and I'm in undercurrrents. Is there any advice anybody wants to recommend for undercurrent? Anyone with experience running undercurrents and jacks?

Owlfarm said:

So I've been using the 3/1.8/1 ratio and its working well for me. I notice alot of you guys are doing coco, and I'm in undercurrrents. Is there any advice anybody wants to recommend for undercurrent? Anyone with experience running undercurrents and jacks?

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I'm guessing the undercurrent system is true hydroponics- like Nutrient Film Technique? If thats the case then I would use less magnesium. You can probably drop the epsom salts down to .5 a gallon.

As I understand it Magnesium is a Potassium protagonist- it helps the uptake of Potassium. So us coco guys have a lot of Potassium to in the mix and it becomes very beneficial to use the upper limit of Magnesium with JPH - 1 gram per gallon of Epsom Salt.

JPH already has adequate magnesium in it already and within a true inert media like LECA (light expanded clay aggregate) A.K.A Hydroton and/or true hydroponic system JPH should not need much if any magnesium supplements. Environmental factors aside of coarse.

Thanks for the info fresh starts. Undercurrent is recirculating deep water culture. So the plants are pretty much just growing in oxygenated nutrient solution. No media. I'll try dropping the epsom down to .5 gram a gallon and see what happens. It kinda seems like the plants might be a tad overly green, like maybe a bit to much nitrogen, but not sure. I was thinking of playing around with the cal/nit, maybe lowering it to 1.6 gram a gallon or so? Whats your take on an epsom salt final flush? Or did you already answer that?

Fresh Starts said:

As I understand it Magnesium is a Potassium protagonist- it helps the uptake of Potassium.

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not in my experience but i'm open to new data
would you have a link or direction to confirm this statement?

thank you
fwiw

Capulator said:

Here is mulders chart. Fat arrows show stimulation, and skinny ones are antagonism.

Basically, all of the nutes play off of eachother. If you have too much of one it leads to unavailability of another, or if you have some of one, it can lead to even more uptake of another. Thats why RATIOS are so important.

Are all plants similar? sure... but surely they do not all require the same needs. I have worked aroudn plants in the nursery industry for 10+ years. Azaleas have a different diet than say... palm trees.

I thought I would post it here for everyone.

I realize that you have to hit the tip of the iceberg first. This is just a start for me.

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This is a post from @Capulator from page 14 of this thread. Wow that was a while ago!
I was trying to explain the relationship between magnesium and potassium in my previous post and this chart here can help shed further light into the topic. "https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/attachments/mulders-chart-jpg.174192/"

So as it so happens Potassium and Magnesium are both Antagonistic to each other- I stand corrected @wobbly goblin.
The idea I was trying to convey was that they both need to be balanced for one or the other to be available to the plant. In Coco Media the potassium levels are higher when using JPH than say in an Undercurrent system (what up @Owlfarm) because as Coco breaks down it naturally releases Potassium. So to keep the balanced formula between Potassium and Magnesium in JPH working in concert while using Coco more Magnesium is in order- enviornmental factors aside of coarse.

Since owlfarm is in pure DWC there is no added Potassium from the Coco and thus he can probably cut down the Magnesium supplement- environmental factors aside of coarse.

Hope that straightened us out. Peace
Fresh Start

@Owlfarm

You may use like 50% concentrate of the 3-2-1 in the undercurrent. No need to go with high EC.

Thanks for the info fresh starts and cap. I have just been using the 3/1.8/1 ratio for my solution and adding it to the desired ec. Usually somewhere in the range of 1 to 2 ec depending on the plants needs.