Stop The Bro Science Behind Molasses And Other Organic Stuff

Swazi Sam said:

Heres my theory. Plants microherds utilize NPK and produce amino acids and such and this is what the plant actually eats. I dont believe the plant itself uses nitrogen or phosphorus. Obviously it needs carbon. Calcium and magnesium but we keep acting like thats so hard to supply. As ive said a leaf that isnt green anymore still contains calcium and magnesium. Therefore those would be returned to the soil.

Im talking about land that has not undergone overtillage so the elements you mentioned would already be in place. Minerals have been spread across the earth by lava flows, glacier drifts, etc.

Any organisms that rely on replicating DNA require omega 3, proteins, and fatty acids along with amino acids. These are the building blocks of DNA.

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well you all have succeeded in blowing my little mind,im difrent from all yall,i use manures to grow with,i do get a npk test done at the start of my new soils,then its manures and critters,dont have the means for scopes and all that,so im with eco,go with what works best for you,manures compost and microbes work best for me in my little area,,i can say this ,i use ecos products and my plants love it,out in the yard is were i use the manures,there is no way for me to afford eco stuff out there cause i have to much,but im a glutin for punishment,hahah i feed 10 folk with what i grow,1 day i hope to go to the farmers market,time will tell,,but before NPK was popular what did folk do?word of mouth and trust in judgment of other farmers methods right,if you bring and hold life in the soil it will produce for you,might not be a lot but 1 bean can be 500 beans next year,when produce is down you automatically thing there is a problem ,usally is,but weather has a very strong hand in all this,with that bad yeild,i would go to the manures and compost,dont have a clue what npk and all it has,but know it works,,so long story short,i dont imagine a magic bullet for the perfect idea,but open minded to hear it all,as above,word of mouth,,tell ya something else that counts for bad yeilds that no one has hit on,neglect,,i got a very bad back and do all i can and come out enough to feed mine,,but damn if i could do this for the public,lmao

Swazi Sam said:

I love the ideas being exchanged here. Its a healthy open dialogue. No pissing contests because we know oir arguments combine both ring valid points. People take me wrong because i like a debate. It looks like im picking a.fight but im just a free think. Ask me who my political choice is? I cant tell you because i cant just jump on one set of ideas or the other. I agree and disagree with points from both sides but i see that the 2 party system is a way of tricking the american people. All politicians are crooks it just about how they claim they need money to appeal to different folks. If you convince someone that there is a reason they should give you money they worked for then youre not stealing...however this is called a con. I dont care how you cut it.

And the dems and republicans arent as.big of enemies with different ideas as they lead to believe. Its a big show. Most are buddies outside of work.

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here here now you got the idea

Swazi Sam said:

Dude ive bough expensive beans and they are almost impossible to germinate if they do at all. Throw some $2 white widow seeds right in the bed and they take the fuck off.
With afghan kush you really dont have to train much at all. Stay nice and short.

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ive got some afgan,just never gave it a go,just might next round,,right now im trying my breed of the blue dream and acupoco gold strain i made,,they aint liking the cold at all,but then again there not in a controlled area,i like to stress there ass out and introduce to bugs to see what they do have,weather conditions ,the whole nine yards,,i will not be caught off gaurd again when some one i gave them too ask a question,,and if i dont like how its going in r&d of them ,i will trash them all,lmao

Swazi Sam said:

Heres my theory. Plants microherds utilize NPK and produce amino acids and such and this is what the plant actually eats. I dont believe the plant itself uses nitrogen or phosphorus. Obviously it needs carbon. Calcium and magnesium but we keep acting like thats so hard to supply. As ive said a leaf that isnt green anymore still contains calcium and magnesium. Therefore those would be returned to the soil.

Im talking about land that has not undergone overtillage so the elements you mentioned would already be in place. Minerals have been spread across the earth by lava flows, glacier drifts, etc.

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Swazi Sam said:

I love the ideas being exchanged here. Its a healthy open dialogue. No pissing contests because we know oir arguments combine both ring valid points. People take me wrong because i like a debate. It looks like im picking a.fight but im just a free think. Ask me who my political choice is? I cant tell you because i cant just jump on one set of ideas or the other. I agree and disagree with points from both sides but i see that the 2 party system is a way of tricking the american people. All politicians are crooks it just about how they claim they need money to appeal to different folks. If you convince someone that there is a reason they should give you money they worked for then youre not stealing...however this is called a con. I dont care how you cut it.

And the dems and republicans arent as.big of enemies with different ideas as they lead to believe. Its a big show. Most are buddies outside of work.

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I agree!
Con men.

Man after reading your post this morning I will send out my book instead of reading all about nitrogen and shit refreshing my memory

I hear what you're saying I am taken as rude arrogant or an ass and that's totally the opposite of me I just don't sugar-coat it.

I love these conversations to that's all we feed off each other you know I learn shit from all of you guys and just like I said how you stimulated my mind last night, it had me jumping in the books reading about nitrogen.

Ha stimulate my mind... so dirty

Got them ribs smoking but I bought them at the Carniceria so they only had cut up ribs oh well I'm still stoked and smoked

Swazi Sam said:

Damn homey. Is that some sort of black or thai?

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That's a male dj short blueberry that got it on with a female flat top purple.... I'm pretty sure he went a past the balls!
Popping many beans we found a male that had a beautiful lavender purple color throughout.
I have The Gummy Bear pheno from BOG'S sour strawberry.

We let them two hook up!
Man I shit you not, we popped five from that and number four was one of the most beautiful buds I've ever seen, when friends would come over before they seen it they would say are you guys baking blueberry muffins!

Had excellent structure one of the best blueberry phenotypes of ever smell and The Taste was freaking amazing the gummy bear really came out in the taste.

Pictures don't do justice and I didn't take pictures after I started banging out clones and getting to know it.
Hey I don't know why I didn't take no pictures I guess it just didn't dawn on me all the times when I go on vacations and I'll come back like shit I don't have one picture but my mind is all I need Man Memories.

Dude those leaves got so triched out they would be like crispy not like burnt or dead they was still purple green but it was just crispy.

I gifted the shit out of that through Encinitas and Leucadia.
And bartering may I grab some rad surfboards stretch skate top decks.

But it wasn't that strong, it was a nice high but it wasn't like couchlock or something abnormally strong.

We crossed it with purple Sierra as well and another one I don't think it was like black lime Reserve or something like that. I can gift you some seeds or a clone if you want. But I won't be back home until after Thanksgiving

Swazi Sam said:

Only time i bubble compost is to dechlorinate water. It just makes dechlorination much faster. Use this when i apply bti and nematodes.

Speaking of...never fails...my nematodes come in and i start bubblimg 2 tbsp of compost to 2 gallons of water. Getting my nematodes ready and i look and i dont see one gnat. Im talking not even crawlers. BTI and soap nut teas got em... Would terpes run them off? May be coincidence but my terpes went out the roof. If i turn off mu exhaust its so overwhelming it is almost sickening. My plants are stinking faster than mt fan can exhaust and i run 24hours.

So much pinene i rubbed my arm against a bud and it was itchy. Im sensitive to this terpe.

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Hell yeah! I use microbebti.. love it

Terps man that's another form of communication between plants and I get itchy as fuck from them

Swazi Sam said:

@Ecompost
My theory may have been somewhat backed. Possum at grass city was having major issues with soil he had been cycling for 2 years. He figured out from him reammending over and over cations built up out the roof. Now you see where my thinking is. You overload the CEC your ass is grass.

Too many minerals is just as bad as too much nitrogen. It's a balancing act. There is no toxicity or deficiency as long as you start with solid soil. El Rancho just builds soil and rolls water for years and years and continues. Then he jokes about how long he can run his soil with just water and if will ever stop producing.

@brazel knows el Rancho. Dude kills it

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Over time, and with amendments, it is most likely we are interfering with feedback loops through a lack of understanding as to total soil conditions, I doubt the dude you mentioned with issues measures his burst rate CO2: most people dont in my experience and lord knows why?? This lack of data and so understanding may be the reason we are also witnessing excessive cation build up; a secondary infection if you like, as colonies of microbes begin to over communicate, ratios become unbalanced and so the noise begins to disrupt primer based signals to the plant which then fails to collect the necessary data to align perfect protein cascade and or pick up the vital modulations that might protect the plant from nutrient inefficiency, defense and so on.
For me this is a Quality of Service issue. If we consider "solid soil" as you say, as we might our own Internetwork traffic, when we get events, say the sale of super bowl tickets or a well liked band or other global news, websites can often fail due to large volumes of traffic which crowds the space and begins to disrupt the signals or worse the code as a consequence of signal to noise. Just think of DDOS attacks and how these work :). When I see unhealthy soil, i usually in my mind see DDOS and or Malicious Packets causing network disruption between the specialized biological primers of plant X and the very many other microbes which might have nothing to do with us or worser might wish our plants harm so i always assume there to be a breakdown in comms as my starting point.

Many micros are used for extremely short periods of time in a plants life cycle. many act like switches and are flicked off and on rapidly so the timing of delivery is crucial in soil less media for example. Fe for example, this being pivotal to gene sequencing for root growth, also used during photosynthesis, or Zn which sequences plant responses to stressors post germination.
Many micros are hard to mobilize due to pH conditions locally and many other factors and its microbes that allow us to access these naturally from parent material in the soil. We can get most of what we need from unlikely sources, Fe we can get from yellow orange, brown grains of coated sand, so long as we have bacillus in the system whose enzymes can unlock the metal from the sand and so enable it to then be accessed by our plant as required.
Plants do things that we really struggle with, but today we have ever more tools in which we can measure plants in ways not possible yesterday.
For example, fairly recent developments in granular measurements of Oxygen against high background levels is now possible, and because of this new tool, it has been possible for us to see a plant breathe both Oxygen and CO2 at the same time and in the same direction. I am not sure this is possible in any other life form on the planet. We have much to learn and this is exciting right and our continued study will be critical to determine fitness landscape models suited to changing environmental conditions that allow us to better select phenotypes that might better cope with say extended drought or high heat, flood and so on.
Is the rancher an outdoor grower or is this indoors in limited media?

brazel said:

Hell yeah! I use microbebti.. love it

Terps man that's another form of communication between plants and I get itchy as fuck from themView attachment 753940

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terps and flavs are essential for communication. Tannins for example give me a headache once levels reach higher than 540mg but anything up to that level and I am fine. VOC's are really something :-)

Swazi Sam said:

Jesus man. I get hives from actual pine trees but damn. You need a tyvek suit to trim dude.

Snipped a tester from my freebie sativa. Literally 2 bowlpack. Quick dry and it was smooth and wow a little head trip from the initial hit that settled into a narcotic floaty feeling.

Afghanis are about to break stems...wont stop swelling and won't start fading lol. As long as they work I'll let them roll.

When you talk about vacation with no pictures that's how everyone should vacation. Everyone is so busy to document life so others can see it that they don't get a chance to observe and enjoy for themselves.

When you say "we" are you talking about a partner working on a project with you? I'm curious and I want some of them cuts.

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Haha, right! That only happens with one strain. If I remember right it's blue dream. It was crazy man I was like what the hell.

I agree on the pictures, I used to take lots of pictures for my social media and then I realized I'm focusing too much on getting a picture other than enjoying my vacation then I realized I'm spending half of my day off sitting at home staring at Facebook so I quit that shit too haha
Now I mainly just use it to keep up with trips, events and other outings with the homies.

Yeah, me and my bro. Sometimes we work together on selecting the traits, at other times will spit the seeds up and we'll each pop them and we won't say shit to each other about anything until we made our selections, then we'll bring them together and we'll bring friends over and we'll all go through them!

I don't really know anything about fantasy football but one of the homies that comes over describes it as being like his fantasy football draft!


He had the flat top purple and the purple Sierra. I had the blueberry, sour strawberry and black lime reserve. My above comment said I DON'T think it was like black lime Reserve I use voice to text a lot and sometimes I forget to check it before I send it so that word DON'T wasn't supposed to be in there. I thought it was black lime reserve and now I'm pretty sure it was.
We also crossed it with kushman's strawberry cough.

Swazi Sam said:

@Ecompost
My theory may have been somewhat backed. Possum at grass city was having major issues with soil he had been cycling for 2 years. He figured out from him reammending over and over cations built up out the roof. Now you see where my thinking is. You overload the CEC your ass is grass.

Too many minerals is just as bad as too much nitrogen. It's a balancing act. There is no toxicity or deficiency as long as you start with solid soil. El Rancho just builds soil and rolls water for years and years and continues. Then he jokes about how long he can run his soil with just water and if will ever stop producing.

@brazel knows el Rancho. Dude kills it

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Yeah Rancho's a good guy and he definitely kills it!
A lot of people amend too much, when I reamend my soil, I use less and less each time.

brazel said:

Yeah Rancho's a good guy and he definitely kills it!
A lot of people amend too much, when I reamend my soil, I use less and less each time.

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we are lucky since we have lots of testing facilities, ergo we add after testing.

oldskol4evr said:

haahah right i do have that gait,,he has a stable and riding range,im sure he would drop at the chance of me cleaning a few stalls,lmao

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I find most of these people are happy for you to take it away mate. I also contacted local tree specialists and they dump all their wood chips on my lower field now mate :-)

oldskol4evr said:

well you all have succeeded in blowing my little mind,im difrent from all yall,i use manures to grow with,i do get a npk test done at the start of my new soils,then its manures and critters,dont have the means for scopes and all that,so im with eco,go with what works best for you,manures compost and microbes work best for me in my little area,,i can say this ,i use ecos products and my plants love it,out in the yard is were i use the manures,there is no way for me to afford eco stuff out there cause i have to much,but im a glutin for punishment,hahah i feed 10 folk with what i grow,1 day i hope to go to the farmers market,time will tell,,but before NPK was popular what did folk do?word of mouth and trust in judgment of other farmers methods right,if you bring and hold life in the soil it will produce for you,might not be a lot but 1 bean can be 500 beans next year,when produce is down you automatically thing there is a problem ,usally is,but weather has a very strong hand in all this,with that bad yeild,i would go to the manures and compost,dont have a clue what npk and all it has,but know it works,,so long story short,i dont imagine a magic bullet for the perfect idea,but open minded to hear it all,as above,word of mouth,,tell ya something else that counts for bad yeilds that no one has hit on,neglect,,i got a very bad back and do all i can and come out enough to feed mine,,but damn if i could do this for the public,lmao

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plants clearly use Nitrogen or why would there be Nitrogen in plants?
Nitrogen is a component of chlorophyll and therefore essential for photosynthesis. It is also the basic element of plant and animal proteins, including the genetic material DNA and RNA, and is important in periods of rapid growth. Plants use nitrogen by absorbing either nitrate or ammonium ions through the roots They then use this to generate enzymes for processes which include the generation of Amino Acids.

oldskol4evr said:

will do bro,,didnt you say you were gonna have to go to a difrent watering method ,due to all the chemical giant loving fools around you,even so that harvest sounds great ,get something back for the work,,i did same shit with my garden this past year,shit splitting,lost some prize melons because of it,never thought you could over water melons,but you can when triple digits hit,lmao,i cant wait to here you tell me you got the orange orchid bringing in the bucks,i know you are ready,you got this so next harvest im thinking you will be telling me that,lol,farming is hard ass work,but always brings a smile at days end

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we are setting up some fungal reefs, hedgerows to surround the field and trap the run off or run in as we say :-)

I have a new girl hanging out with me!
My homie dropped it off for me, if I remember correctly it's a forum cut But we're talking about a lot of different strains, I'll find out for sure tomorrow

Ecompost said:

I find most of these people are happy for you to take it away mate. I also contacted local tree specialists and they dump all their wood chips on my lower field now mate :)

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keep a eye on them bro,,i got a old friend here that does same thing,problem is they use his age to there advantage and just dump shit every were and then he bitchs at me,lmao,,he takes the wood and splits to logs and sells it for firewood,he charges them 30 bucks a pickup truck load to dump and then he sells a cord wood for 200,he got 360 acres of land ,there isnt a spot on it that dont have piles of wood on it,there is no way in hell i would let them do that to my land,,problem is that wood has been there so long in some places ,he probally has very fertil soil under it,,i told him to rent a dozer and i would shove it all into piles,but he hasnt done it,he is 83 and i figure he will leave it for his boy to clean up and it is a mess bro

Ecompost said:

we are setting up some fungal reefs, hedgerows to surround the field and trap the run off or run in as we say :)

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great idea

Hpo777 said:

***NEVER USE – Blackstrap molasses*** If you do some of your own reading online about compost tea brewing one of the biggest things you will run across is the recommendation to use blackstrap molasses as the microbial food in the tea. This used to be widely accepted as a great way of brewing tea. The issue is that without a firm understanding of soil biology and what microbes look like under a microscope people actually brew up anaerobic teas the majority of the time with blackstrap molasses. This is why that happens even with an air pump -- molasses is a simple sugar which feeds bacterial populations very quickly basically as junk food. As the bacterial populations grow they take over the entire tea and use up all the oxygen, this causes the tea to become anaerobic as soon as the ppm (parts per million) of dissolved oxygen drop below 8 (6ppm is the critical point). There are plenty of bacteria all over this planet and we really don’t need to brew up heavy bacterial teas, rather we want to brew up complex teas that have a huge variety of life in them, not only bacteria but also fungi, protozoa and nematodes. When you only feed simple sugars to the microbiology in the tea brewing process the bacteria will out multiply all the other good guys and take over the entire tea. We instead feed complex foods to the tea so the fungi, protozoa and nematodes have a chance to grow and multiply. If you really want to use molasses in your brewing it is highly advisable to also get yourself a microscope so you can monitor the tea and make sure you use it before it goes anaerobic.

Good info above also Elaine Ingram backs this theory. It's always good to make sure all that you're doing is backed by science. Just because you heard someone do something doesn't mean it's solid evidence.

Also remember with organic gardening and "super soil" you're not feeding your plant...youre feeding your microbial life.

Fungicides and pesticides are a NO NO for organic gardeners, you disrupt the soil food web! Even "organic" ones can disrupt this!

Any questions or comments are very welcome here!

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Hpo777 said:

Also guys remember compost piles are AMAZING for our environment! It's good for you...your plants...and the earth!

I said not to use fungicides and pesticides...uhh How do I get rid of the "bad shit" Then?

So your bacteria are gonna be the big boys here! They are a fortress for diseases and pest! Remember a good "soil"(not dirt, soil means living, dirt is no organic matter) maintains the top of your plant...just as much as the lower! As long as your bottom soil is aerobic...those bennies will fight! A good tip to stop "compacting"(causing your roots not dig and also causing anaerobic pockets) is to throw some cover crop! Or mulch etc. I prefer cover crop(if your in larger containers) it's pretty, it's cheap, and it does the work for you(perk to cover crop is you can get a beneficial crop to aid in the growth process by providing nitrogen etc).

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Ceveres said:

I think it is a bit much to say never use molasses. I agree that blindly brewing without measuring equipment can yield imperfect results, but when brewed under 24-36 hours I dont believe that is long enough for the tea to go anerobic. I actually had email correspondence with the people at Progressive Farms that make 'Compost Tea in a Box' and asked them a little about using molasses in teas. This was part of his response;

"Molasses gets a bad name in the compost tea world, mostly due to faulty studies like this one: https://www.researchgate.net/public..._E_coli_O157H7_And_Salmonella_in_Compost_Teas

Note that there was no DO measured and there was no diversity present. Of course e.coli will grow with no competition in the presence of molasses. DUH! Anyway, we highly recommend molasses. "

I definitely use it much more sparingly than I used to. Not going around telling people 'flush with molasses and honey bruh it will sweeten your smoke' lol

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Hpo777 said:

It feeds bacteria and bacteria only...bacteria is very present in every soil...fungi, protozoa, nematodes(root feeders, fungal and bacteria feeders) aren't in abundance as bacteria is. So brewing a complex tea is far more beneficial.(I think K.I.S.S when making teas keep it simple stupid) unless you can really test and judge if bacteria isn't present...which for 99.9% of us isn't an option...i say never. Their are far better options to safely implement bacteria into your soil!

All the information I've gathered about molasses is from school(soil science program) and Elaine Ingram. Personally I take Elaine Ingrams word as fact. She's incredibly brilliant and incredibly honest. If she says no...im inclined to believe the mother of soil science lol

That being said if you really want to and think you need some more bacteria...id keep the brew under 24 hours, honestly 16-18 hours, and id absolutely use an air pump that is more than enough for what I'm doing 70lpm+ for 3 gal brews. Wearing gloves and other protective equipment would be a must as well!

Watering with molasses mixed with water...yea for sure! I won't deny it's effects. I just think we should shift thinking away from it being in teas for the better of the community as a whole. Here is what i use with amazing effects and have never ran into diseases or pest.

Clone tea
1/4 cup EWC
(Steeped not brewed)

Veg Tea(16-18 hour brew)
1/4 cup EWC
2tsp kelp meal
1.5 mil fish hydroslate
(Swap kelp and alfalfa meal every other watering)

Flower Tea(24 hour brew)
1/4 cup EWC
1tsp kelp
1/4 tsp fish bone meal
(Swap bone meal for soft rock phosphate every other watering or if you want more bacteria swap for a high P guano and that'll do the trick)

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Hmmmmmm.....

Well I guess this is as good of time as any to post in a soil thread...
Well I guess I must of just got lucky...
I brewed a tea for 2.5 months..
With absolutely no problems..
Every week on Mon I would add 1/2 teaspoon of plus life. On Wed I would add some OGbiowar root. On Fri I would add 30 ml of hydro gaurd.
3 times a week i would pull a gal from the 5 gal bucket. Once for veg plants, once for plants in flower, and once for the out side plants..
Once every 2 weeks i would refill my ewc bag that hangs in the water.. I add a big spoonful of molasses every 5 days or so.. Added OGBiowar foliar twice and used tea to whipe out a fungus gnat situation 3rd week of flower.. That and sticky traps whiped them out completely in a week...

I think that flys in the face of your guys post.. I give a shit less what your conclussion is, but figured that was prudent info you may like to hear...
Right from the horses mouth...