Stop The Bro Science Behind Molasses And Other Organic Stuff

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fishbuds

fishbuds

What is the shelf life of bat guano once it’s mixed and steeped for 48 hours?
not long once you turn off the air. you can keep a brew going forever technically, but what will be living in there at that point is the question. you will have to feed it, and keep it airated, to extend its life, but again it might just be some whacked out brew with a ph of 10 by then.

this thread makes me think i need to buy that microscope ive been eyeing ;)

also, the longer it brews the better chance it will go lame. 24 hrs is my swEet spot for teas. others im sure have diff opinions.
 
rmoltis

rmoltis

The Beast Slayer
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As a side note it doesn't really matter what bacteria populations are created because plants eat microbes as a food source. funny part was that they were using e-coli for this study.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0011915

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Soil contains many microbes of various types. and personally when I grew a nutrient tea I use a microbe additive from earth juice full of many different types to kick off the populations.

Just remember we live in a multi faceted world where just one study doesn't lead to an answer like "dont use molasses" the are multiple points to consider before making your decision. i personally like the blackstrap molasses because it has a bunch of extra vitamins & minerals contained within it.
Screenshot_20190301-045026_Firefox.jpg
 
T

TheKoreanKid

It feeds bacteria and bacteria only...bacteria is very present in every soil...fungi, protozoa, nematodes(root feeders, fungal and bacteria feeders) aren't in abundance as bacteria is. So brewing a complex tea is far more beneficial.(I think K.I.S.S when making teas keep it simple stupid) unless you can really test and judge if bacteria isn't present...which for 99.9% of us isn't an option...i say never. Their are far better options to safely implement bacteria into your soil!

All the information I've gathered about molasses is from school(soil science program) and Elaine Ingram. Personally I take Elaine Ingrams word as fact. She's incredibly brilliant and incredibly honest. If she says no...im inclined to believe the mother of soil science lol

That being said if you really want to and think you need some more bacteria...id keep the brew under 24 hours, honestly 16-18 hours, and id absolutely use an air pump that is more than enough for what I'm doing 70lpm+ for 3 gal brews. Wearing gloves and other protective equipment would be a must as well!

Watering with molasses mixed with water...yea for sure! I won't deny it's effects. I just think we should shift thinking away from it being in teas for the better of the community as a whole. Here is what i use with amazing effects and have never ran into diseases or pest.

Clone tea
1/4 cup EWC
(Steeped not brewed)

Veg Tea(16-18 hour brew)
1/4 cup EWC
2tsp kelp meal
1.5 mil fish hydroslate
(Swap kelp and alfalfa meal every other watering)

Flower Tea(24 hour brew)
1/4 cup EWC
1tsp kelp
1/4 tsp fish bone meal
(Swap bone meal for soft rock phosphate every other watering or if you want more bacteria swap for a high P guano and that'll do the trick)
Sorry, what is EWC? I'm assuming it's not European waxing center
 
cemchris

cemchris

Staff member
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Whats funny it is all bro science unless you are getting your specific recipe tested to see the activity and content after brewing. Going off other peoples recipes is a start but there are so many factors that go into it you are using arm chair science unless you go that route to be honest. It isnt as cut and dry as use this dont use this.
 
RippedTorn

RippedTorn

I'd love to know what microbes we should be brewing, and how different feeds effect the quality of the biosynthesized nutes they put out. The generalization is that anaerobes bad, aerobes good, but lactic acid bacteria is essential in the garden, brewed with oxygen tolerating anaerobes.

Should I be using Mangosteen and Lychee as a sugar source to cultivate saccharomyces boulardii? Who knows! Letting the air in your house, your dirty fingernails and the scum on your containers provide the only microbes seems like a bigger problem than using cane or beet sugars.
 
W

Winter323

***NEVER USE – Blackstrap molasses*** If you do some of your own reading online about compost tea brewing one of the biggest things you will run across is the recommendation to use blackstrap molasses as the microbial food in the tea. This used to be widely accepted as a great way of brewing tea. The issue is that without a firm understanding of soil biology and what microbes look like under a microscope people actually brew up anaerobic teas the majority of the time with blackstrap molasses. This is why that happens even with an air pump -- molasses is a simple sugar which feeds bacterial populations very quickly basically as junk food. As the bacterial populations grow they take over the entire tea and use up all the oxygen, this causes the tea to become anaerobic as soon as the ppm (parts per million) of dissolved oxygen drop below 8 (6ppm is the critical point). There are plenty of bacteria all over this planet and we really don’t need to brew up heavy bacterial teas, rather we want to brew up complex teas that have a huge variety of life in them, not only bacteria but also fungi, protozoa and nematodes. When you only feed simple sugars to the microbiology in the tea brewing process the bacteria will out multiply all the other good guys and take over the entire tea. We instead feed complex foods to the tea so the fungi, protozoa and nematodes have a chance to grow and multiply. If you really want to use molasses in your brewing it is highly advisable to also get yourself a microscope so you can monitor the tea and make sure you use it before it goes anaerobic.

Good info above also Elaine Ingram backs this theory. It's always good to make sure all that you're doing is backed by science. Just because you heard someone do something doesn't mean it's solid evidence.

Also remember with organic gardening and "super soil" you're not feeding your plant...youre feeding your microbial life.

Fungicides and pesticides are a NO NO for organic gardeners, you disrupt the soil food web! Even "organic" ones can disrupt this!

Any questions or comments are very welcome here!
This isnt really a warning against black strap more of a warning against using too much which has been a point of debate the last 5 years, surely many argue that you dont want a giant population explosion followed by a crash, but its debatable at best and there might be possible benefits to both...in different situations.
 
Migrower

Migrower

Elaine has a PhD and she hasn't changed her mind lol my professors also have PhDs, haven't changed their minds...I have a degree in biology, studying Soil Science I don't think I'm changing my mind until someone disproves it with scientific data. "I've used it for years" and "experience" are not good reasons to keep doing something.



To begin with “science” is ever changing. And your remark on experience not a good reason to keep doing something. First off experience is the best teacher, secondly experience continually doing a job with satisfactory results (being product you deem passes high quality standards and your own) is proof enough that beneficial results are noticeable if I use this technique..... There are 1000 roads that all end up at the same sea. It’s our decision which road we take,some may be bumpier than others. And I can see your just trying to give directions to a smooth riding road, issue is some people are hard headed and like to find they’re own way, maybe it’s a bumpy road and they get a flat, but they’ll learn to change that tire.
 
MakaveliTheDon

MakaveliTheDon

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I'm hoping to revive this thread somewhat...
I've read through 16 pages of this thread and have found everything to be some of the most important information i've come across on the net. I'm not the most experienced gardener but after reading Sepp Holzer and Masanobu Fukuoka, along with a general understanding of botany, I'd like to think that i've past the peak of the bell curve. Ive been growing corn beans and squash for 5 years on the same hardpacked 100% sand with maybe the first 3 inches as loam and every year gets better. Peas, potatoes, sunflower, hot peppers, kale, and tomatoes, which i will see how my year goes after adding an abundance of calcium to the tomato soil in attempt to stop the blight. I do no till, no fertilizer, I simply add weeds and leaves into a compost pile and spread it out every spring.

I also have an indoor plant collection, all comprising of nearly 150 medicinal and edible plants. Avacados, bananas, pineapple, cinnamon, vanilla, almond, and so much more. all in a southfacing window in the state of connecticut. it can be done. if it werent for the mites AND scales that bypassed my detection after bringing a coconut plant in from outdoors at the end of summer I would have a 3 year old coconut plant.

anyways, i have a worm bin that i put all of my leaf cutting into, I have been using that as a source for compost tea and to topdress my plants on occaison.

I also use RODI water to start at 7.2 ph and 0 ppm.

The soil i use is 1 parts bumper crop 1 parts bio char, about 6 gallons of soil per 7 gallon pot, growing companion plants such as all the different types of clover, adding worms and finding centipedes running around.

here's what's in bumper crop:
pisolithus tinctorius
rhizopogon roseolus
rhizopogon subscaerelescens
rhizopogon villosulus
rhizopogon vulgaris
scleroderma cepa
scleroderma citrinni
glomus intraradices
worm castings, lobster and crab shells, kelp meal, dehydrated poultry manure, SPM, composted cow manure, aged bark, and dolomitic lime.

Here are some problems I am having.

1. obvious nitrogen deficiency, party from the fact that it is new living soil and partly from the possibility that the biochar is soaking up nutrients.
2. obvious calcium magnesium deficiencies. I have purchased a 10lb bag of oyster shells and adjusted my soil composition for a few buckets to 3parts bumper crop 3 parts bio char 1 parts oyster powder, and 90% less deficiencies thus far.

that being said, I'd like to find a system that has me brewing AACT's, and SST's from something that i could get done if i were to be off the grid.
i'm also a huge fan of foliar sprays, after using Bloom Khaos kelp foliar feeding i saw an immediate difference.

Here are my options:
using the corn seeds that i grow for my SST
growing aloe as an additive to my teas.
baking egg shells and grinding them into a powder to be put in the compost bins.
boiling egg shells and using the water as a calcium feed.

im not sure about the cytokinnin and auxin properties of stinging nettle but i think it can be used in place of kelp extract.

I'd like to get all of the knowledgeable people in this thread to help me fill in the pieces.
 
Kanzeon

Kanzeon

I'm hoping to revive this thread somewhat...
I've read through 16 pages of this thread and have found everything to be some of the most important information i've come across on the net. I'm not the most experienced gardener but after reading Sepp Holzer and Masanobu Fukuoka, along with a general understanding of botany, I'd like to think that i've past the peak of the bell curve. Ive been growing corn beans and squash for 5 years on the same hardpacked 100% sand with maybe the first 3 inches as loam and every year gets better. Peas, potatoes, sunflower, hot peppers, kale, and tomatoes, which i will see how my year goes after adding an abundance of calcium to the tomato soil in attempt to stop the blight. I do no till, no fertilizer, I simply add weeds and leaves into a compost pile and spread it out every spring.

I also have an indoor plant collection, all comprising of nearly 150 medicinal and edible plants. Avacados, bananas, pineapple, cinnamon, vanilla, almond, and so much more. all in a southfacing window in the state of connecticut. it can be done. if it werent for the mites AND scales that bypassed my detection after bringing a coconut plant in from outdoors at the end of summer I would have a 3 year old coconut plant.

anyways, i have a worm bin that i put all of my leaf cutting into, I have been using that as a source for compost tea and to topdress my plants on occaison.

I also use RODI water to start at 7.2 ph and 0 ppm.

The soil i use is 1 parts bumper crop 1 parts bio char, about 6 gallons of soil per 7 gallon pot, growing companion plants such as all the different types of clover, adding worms and finding centipedes running around.

here's what's in bumper crop:
pisolithus tinctorius
rhizopogon roseolus
rhizopogon subscaerelescens
rhizopogon villosulus
rhizopogon vulgaris
scleroderma cepa
scleroderma citrinni
glomus intraradices
worm castings, lobster and crab shells, kelp meal, dehydrated poultry manure, SPM, composted cow manure, aged bark, and dolomitic lime.

Here are some problems I am having.

1. obvious nitrogen deficiency, party from the fact that it is new living soil and partly from the possibility that the biochar is soaking up nutrients.
2. obvious calcium magnesium deficiencies. I have purchased a 10lb bag of oyster shells and adjusted my soil composition for a few buckets to 3parts bumper crop 3 parts bio char 1 parts oyster powder, and 90% less deficiencies thus far.

that being said, I'd like to find a system that has me brewing AACT's, and SST's from something that i could get done if i were to be off the grid.
i'm also a huge fan of foliar sprays, after using Bloom Khaos kelp foliar feeding i saw an immediate difference.

Here are my options:
using the corn seeds that i grow for my SST
growing aloe as an additive to my teas.
baking egg shells and grinding them into a powder to be put in the compost bins.
boiling egg shells and using the water as a calcium feed.

im not sure about the cytokinnin and auxin properties of stinging nettle but i think it can be used in place of kelp extract.

I'd like to get all of the knowledgeable people in this thread to help me fill in the pieces.
Nice, it seems like we're growing with similar philosophies! I like roasting eggshells and adding them into the soil mix after powdering. The same basic process of roasting and grinding works with banana peels for K, but I leave them in the oven until they're almost black before grinding so bugs aren't attracted to the smell. Roughly 2 tablespoons per 5 gal bucket.

For Mg deficiencies, I've had great results with using epsom salts in my foliar mix. 2g/L, sprayed on the undersides of the leaves of the affected plant. The stomata absorb the nutes within a half hour after spraying, and at far greater efficiency than watering. Theoretically Calcium Chloride can be used similarly for calcium, but I can't speak from personal experience on that yet.

Did you charge the biochar before adding it to the soil? I've messed with it a bit in the past, but wasn't thrilled with the results. Heard great things about aloe in tea, but haven't done that.
 
oldskol4evr

oldskol4evr

i havent went all the way threw thread ,already know were it gonna lead,so no waste of time,but i will say this much,if you ferment your own feeds black strap molaese is the most important of the process,it is a 1:1 process for fermentation,if you choice to use brown sugar,still have the molases there,that is the food for the fermentation process,those of you that seek better methods,fermentation is it,any plant around your area is benifitual and is food,the plant is a carnivore imo,why not take your harvested plants ,ferment and feed right back to next plant coming up,i do works great,only cost,BLACK STRAP MOLASES,all that foam you have in your tea is also black strap,so whats left after all that,dont know about you all and im damn sure no scientist,buy bro science or not it has worked for me for many years and many moons so i stick to my science and leave you all to the books,i prefer music hahaha
 
bunkerking

bunkerking

i havent went all the way threw thread ,already know were it gonna lead,so no waste of time,but i will say this much,if you ferment your own feeds black strap molaese is the most important of the process,it is a 1:1 process for fermentation,if you choice to use brown sugar,still have the molases there,that is the food for the fermentation process,those of you that seek better methods,fermentation is it,any plant around your area is benifitual and is food,the plant is a carnivore imo,why not take your harvested plants ,ferment and feed right back to next plant coming up,i do works great,only cost,BLACK STRAP MOLASES,all that foam you have in your tea is also black strap,so whats left after all that,dont know about you all and im damn sure no scientist,buy bro science or not it has worked for me for many years and many moons so i stick to my science and leave you all to the books,i prefer music hahaha
molases is mostly long carbon chains - and plants dont really "eat" sugar. Its microbe food, and generally they are too complex for them to breakdown fast enough. (if i recall right) If you are running no microbes and seeing a benefit @oldskol4evr - id be fascinated to try to see why.
 
oldskol4evr

oldskol4evr

molases is mostly long carbon chains - and plants dont really "eat" sugar. Its microbe food, and generally they are too complex for them to breakdown fast enough. (if i recall right) If you are running no microbes and seeing a benefit @oldskol4evr - id be fascinated to try to see why.
you are correct the microbes are feeding on it,which in turn feeds my soil and them so were is there not a benifit,to make there food i have to 1:1 ratio and ferment right,you close that jar after fermenting and that bitch will blow,so the molasses is still there feeding the critters ,right.
just my stupid idea that down in the root zone the same takes place,like i say not a scientist jmo
 
S

SymbioticMan

Well this has a technicality, the average grower is not growing over four plants.
So they don't need to brew a compost tea that takes that long or as much, to the point that molasses would hurt it.

I mean sure if you got up to 10 plants and you have to make a big batch compost tea that's that in trying to maximize the microbes to go a long way, and your going to sit there for 24 hours plus after you already dechlorinated the water for another 24 hours totaling 48 hours.

But typically at least in regards to me, after 24 hours of dechlorination, I add my Brew with molasses and let it sit for about 4 hours before I use it. Micro population is more than sufficient to such a small grow.
 
MakaveliTheDon

MakaveliTheDon

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you are correct the microbes are feeding on it,which in turn feeds my soil and them so were is there not a benifit,to make there food i have to 1:1 ratio and ferment right,you close that jar after fermenting and that bitch will blow,so the molasses is still there feeding the critters ,right.
just my stupid idea that down in the root zone the same takes place,like i say not a scientist jmo

i posted a thread asking if plants are able to absorb any kind of calcium through the stomata and a mod deleted all of the replies except for his. well it turns out that none of the commercial calcium are able to absorb according to the mod. but you left me with a recipe for extracting my own calcium from eggshells via vinegar. shouldn't i be worried about spraying vinegar on my plants?
 
Rootbound

Rootbound

Supporter
i posted a thread asking if plants are able to absorb any kind of calcium through the stomata and a mod deleted all of the replies except for his. well it turns out that none of the commercial calcium are able to absorb according to the mod. but you left me with a recipe for extracting my own calcium from eggshells via vinegar. shouldn't i be worried about spraying vinegar on my plants?
I took a look at the thread you started and I dont see any deleted replies....
 
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