4K Coco dtw VS UC 13s 8xl

[BudGoggles]

Day 20 veg

UC is finally taking off....... kinda but should be full blast by the end of the week

Coco just got a transplant they have mad sick ass roots OGbiowar for the win Ill never grow in dirt or coco with out it

These are just stupid

Im hoping to be blooming by next Monday

Enjoy
BG

 

[souf69]

lookin good bg! that tea looks like its the shiznit. gotta get me some o thatt....

 

[hogan400]

2 things, I can see the spray damage. They will lighten and you will have interveinal damage exhibiting Ca and Mg def. If you ever find you have someone spray food or too much of anything, Its not a big deal to rinse the plants with ph balanced fresh water asap. Even the next day or two is still ok. Just follow standard spray procedure.. lights off..etc .

Also, without getting into a HUGE debate here I will give you simple explanation of Ca and coco. Coco readily absorbs Ca and heavy salts. The Coco husk/coir is like a sponge or membrane, allowing fluids to pass, trapping the heavier salts. The normal procedure for a basic grower is to use cal-mag, calimaigic, etc as a crutch. Adding it to offset the binding of calcium/salts and coco. The major issue and a fault. So many so called experts have written articles telling you to add more as well as many feed programs recommend this too. Most growers even experts will argue this point. Whats worse, quoting actual university studies and old shit from the grow bible alike. New foods have added Ca &Mg nowadays in abundance!

 

[hogan400]

Damn, wasnt finished and accidentally posted. lol.

Up your feed schedule and make sure ph is adjusted accordingly as normal. Your plants will thank you. Use epsoms if you "do" notice you need more Mg. The proper way to use Coco is water FOR runoff, 15-30%, or, in recirculating systems, do a nute swap and flush weekly with mild feed not pure water. You will never have the Ca/salt buildup in the coir, OR then add more cal-mag products to offset the problem, you will never see deficiencies. Also something growers miss is the added nitrogen in these products, can effect your early bud development if used in excess (like 4-5 ml per gallon) like some of these dudes recommend. Causing delayed flowering, or less than desirable harvest numbers!
veg ph 6.0-6.2
bloom 5.6-5.8

If you like, Ill take some pictures of my splines, leafs, and petioles, for you to see what no cal-mag product looks like when you elevate the food levels. Just say the word, also if I didnt make sense let me know Im tired and Ill address this better. Each yr products get better and we advance our skillset. What foods are you using? The ladies look great and I see the Uc is taking off too!
h400

 

[Texas Kid]

Cation-Exchange Capacity (CEC)

Cation-exchange capacity is defined as the degree to which a soil can adsorb and exchange cations.

Cation-a positively charged ion (NH4+, K+, Ca2+, Fe2+, etc...)
Anion-a negatively charged ion (NO3-, PO42-, SO42-, etc...)

Soil particles and organic matter have negative charges on their surfaces. Mineral cations can adsorb to the negative surface charges or the inorganic and organic soil particles. Once adsorbed, these minerals are not easily lost when the soil is leached by water and they also provide a nutrient reserve available to plant roots.

These minerals can then be replaced or exchanged by other cations (i.e., cation exchange)



CEC is highly dependent upon soil texture and organic matter content. In general, the more clay and organic matter in the soil, the higher the CEC. Clay content is important because these small particles have a high ration of surface area to volume. Different types of clays also vary in CEC. Smectites have the highest CEC (80-100 millequivalents 100 g-1), followed by illites (15-40 meq 100 g-1) and kaolinites (3-15 meq 100 g-1).

Examples of CEC values for different soil textures are as follows:


Soil texture
CEC (meq/100g soi)
Sands (light-colored) 3-5
Sands (dark-colored) 10-20
Loams 10-15
Silt loams 15-25
Clay and clay loams 20-50
Organic soils
50-100



In general, the CEC of most soils increases with an increase in soil pH.


Two factors determine the relative proportions of the different cations adsorbed by clays. First, cations are not held equally tight by the soil colloids. When the cations are present in equivalent amounts, the order of strength of adsorption is Al3+ > Ca2+ > Mg2+ > K+ = NH4+ > Na+.

Second, the relative concentrations of the cations in soil solution helps determine the degree of adsorption. Very acid soils will have high concentrations of H+ and Al3+. In neutral to moderately alkaline soils, Ca2+ and Mg2+ dominate. Poorly drained arid soils may adsorb Na in very high quantities.



Base Saturation


The proportion of CEC satisfied by basic cations (Ca, Mg, K, and Na) is termed percentage base saturation (BS%). This property is inversely related to soil acidity. As the BS% increases, the pH increases. High base saturation is preferred but not essential for tree fruit production. The availability of nutrient cations such as Ca, Mg, and K to plants increases with increasing BS%.

Base saturation is usually close to 100% in arid region soils. Base saturation below 100% indicates that part of the CEC is occupied by hydrogen and/or aluminum ions. Base saturation above 100% indicates that soluble salts or lime may be present, or that there is a procedural problem with the analysis.



CEC and Availability of Nutrients


Exchangeable cations, as mentioned above, may become available to plants. Plant roots also possess cation exchange capacity. Hydrogen ions from the root hairs and microorganisms may replace nutrient cations from the exchange complex on soil colloids. The nutrient cations are then released into the soil solution where they can be taken up by the adsorptive surfaces of roots and soil organisms. They may however, be lost from the system by drainage water.

Additionally, high levels of one nutrient may influence uptake of another (antagonistic relationship). For example, K uptake by plants is limited by high levels of Ca in some soils. High levels of K can in turn, limit Mg uptake even if Mg levels in soil are high.



Anion Exchange

In contrast to CEC, AEC is the degree to which a soil can adsorb and exchange anions. AEC increases as soil pH decreases. The pH of most productive soils in the US and Canada is usually too high (exceptions are for volcanic soils) for full development of AEC and thus it generally plays a minor role in supplying plants with anions.


Because the AEC of most agricultural soils is small compared to their CEC, mineral anions such as nitrate (NO3- and Cl-) are repelled by the negative charge on soil colloids. These ions remain mobile in the soil solution and thus are susceptible to leaching.

 

[Texas Kid]

Now if you look at the effects of the CEC in/on coco it gives you alot of information to chew on

 

[BudGoggles]

Damn, wasnt finished and accidentally posted. lol.

Up your feed schedule and make sure ph is adjusted accordingly as normal. Your plants will thank you. Use epsoms if you "do" notice you need more Mg. The proper way to use Coco is water FOR runoff, 15-30%, or, in recirculating systems, do a nute swap and flush weekly with mild feed not pure water. You will never have the Ca/salt buildup in the coir, OR then add more cal-mag products to offset the problem, you will never see deficiencies. Also something growers miss is the added nitrogen in these products, can effect your early bud development if used in excess (like 4-5 ml per gallon) like some of these dudes recommend. Causing delayed flowering, or less than desirable harvest numbers!
veg ph 6.0-6.2
bloom 5.6-5.8

If you like, Ill take some pictures of my splines, leafs, and petioles, for you to see what no cal-mag product looks like when you elevate the food levels. Just say the word, also if I didnt make sense let me know Im tired and Ill address this better. Each yr products get better and we advance our skillset. What foods are you using? The ladies look great and I see the Uc is taking off too!
h400

So I should be good upping the base and dropping the cal all together? What about when the cocos new??
Im looking at my weekly tea as my flush. I been adding a few cups to 5 gallons RO water then soaking them til about 25% runoff
Of coarse I wanna see some pics

Now if you look at the effects of the CEC in/on coco it gives you alot of information to chew on

Thanks tex make me read more

So in two days Im gonna do a nute change out and run like 8 ml a&b should bring me right arounf 1.6ec and thats it
I dont want to fuck them up now I wanna flip em but I need this right first

Thanks guys for all the help I need it

BG

 

[tipper619sd]

They have did a u turn and are back on track. 4ml calimagic and a foliar of epsom and blammo
Im sure they be happy as shit tomorrow just gave em there favorite treat..... OGbiowar tea with seagreen

and ya the UC is on track as well

Nice to hear BG CAnt wait man

 

[hogan400]

Tex, glad you chimed in with your knowledge. I had wanted to avoid all the chemistry discussion, however I will lay down my experience with cec and a few tests we did.

Ive had many conversations with highly skilled water quality testing companies and I personally nuclear grade cation exchange resin in my r.o for reef aquarium purposes. h\Hence why I have a" little" experience with this. I viewed available coco cation data yrs ago and we tossed around two theoretical ideas to test regarding calcium and mag input while feeding in coco coir. Pre-charging the coco with calcium specifically. And then avoiding any cal-mag at all. Unfortunately I had a flood with my Uc and it ruined my diaries from 98-2012, along with several super old school federation and bros grimm seed packs. (that hurt). So my data, even though it wasnt very technical. was lost.

What I remember of importance in my studies was this,

pre charging with cal-mag after a huge pre-rinse gave use poor results which I had not expected. I also had lesser quality herbs and smoke. I expected by filling the cec gap with a cal product I would pre fill the exchange value thus having more calcium available to the ladies. I experienced the opposite, I saw Immediate Ca lock out. It occurred to me that the simple rinsing they must do overseas is the way I should base my grow. By watering with no calcium and elevated feed levels with a food that has additional calcium, micros and a good runoff (20%+) I would never have any calcium lockout and fantastic yeilds with a good smoke. I still chose to stay organic with a blended soil mix for yrs with good results for ease of what we had available in coco at the time. It was pretty crappy coco. The next experience was also a surprise, when we used cation exchange resin in the r.o, vs tap water, after the r.o flipped polarity of the water the calcium never ever binded up! Maybe there was something to it I missed, since Im no pro in water chemistry? All grows I help with or setup, tap water causes ca&mg to noticeably lock up fairly quick and immediately if we precharged. But when I use r.o, the plants are fantastic after some feed dialing, and total elimination of any and all ca products. Thus eliminating the whole displacement attempt with calcium/

Im curious if you have had similar experiences and any input regarding calcium addition and /r.o/tap water in regards to end results with your personal experinces, not necessarily the cec or cal-mag arguments everyone on here ends up having ya know? lol
I dig your work and experience as most here do, and can remember a few discussions we had on overgrow yrs and yrs back about different ideas. Your thoughts would be appreciated..
h400

 

[Texas Kid]

I don't precharge anymore at all and only do a simple rinse prior to use

 

[BudGoggles]

Hmmm thats how I started out. I gave them a light feed of 1 ml calmag and the rest a&b to 1.1 ec ran threw a shit ton til run off came out close to what I was putting in. Im hoping its the cocos formula giving me the mg hunger. They been getting aquaflakes the last two days so hopefully there getting better. .... but I did blast em with calmag and I wish I wouldnt of.
Tomorrow theyll have a fresh batch of aquaflakes with 1 ml calimagic. im gonna ec to 1.6 and see how that goes

Thanks guys

 

[hogan400]

When ladies are young, cal mag products aren't such an issue, many many people have good success using it. They look mag deficient and hungry to me. Plus lil burning from spray. Lot of times spraying will look like Ca def because the moisture settles into the inteveinal regions prior to lights returning on..

Cal and Mg also are more and less available at diff ph values same as all micros. Ca is more available in little higher ph coco soils and Mg is more available in the lower regions. Most growers "I" know automatically assume since the product is packed together in one container, is available at the same ph value and never think to investigate media ph values, and generally gets the two def confused. They exhibit diff characteristics for sure. Your roots are fantastic and dont sweat it. In a couple days you AND the ladies will be happier.

TEX you use any "additional" cal-mag products during veg/bloom with ur coco programs? I love the cultured solutions for coco as well. The elevated mag levels had me skipping epsoms too. Two part with tea was my whole last run! Best results yet for me.

 

[Texas Kid]

Im runnin CS in coco right ow also but I am hittin the buckets with extra cal-mag but not the tables...the buckets just eat at a record rate...I've been doin a light epsom dilution as a foliar feed

 

[BudGoggles]

Shit I have a few gallons of cs veg and 5 gallons of cs bloom. Maybe I switch to that for bloom. May make things a little easier. UC is .5 ml calmag and the rest CS veg total ec .4 and there loving it

 

[hogan400]

Im starting to do a little more foliar as well this yr. I was lazy the last few yrs but with the game changing at such a rapid pace, Im gettin all over it. Tea once a week and epsoms the next. Only til week 4 bloom.

Good words as always Tex. Thanks

BG, switch up to cs if you like. Give it that heavy feeding after some drying out to help flush it. Ph is way stable and Im more than happy!!! I hear rumor of a new cs coco product later on too. I imagine itll be killer. I cant Imagine how much better it will be.... shit crushes it already!

 

[BudGoggles]

Things are picking up
Hoping to flip Monday we'll see

Had to tear apart the table and make a good one outta wood



One giant mother that has gotten outta hand. She will be blooming this round


Enjoy
BG

 

[RIVAL79]

Tearing shit up, BG! I'm locked on this grow. Nice side by side comparison grow. Best luck in the flower cycle, bro.

 

[BudGoggles]

Flower cycle is my favorite. This strain blows up gonna be some arm size colas for sure. Never ran her with co2 haha this is gonna be fun

 

[RIVAL79]

Yes it does. Is this the same Frostitute cut that Optic had? That shit was fire! I sure hope so. Kill them hoes, Bud G.

 

[BudGoggles]

Yes it is I hooked him up. I been running this strain for about 5 yrs