Alcohol Extraction

Fools Gold · Jun 22, 2012

fwiw i use 99% iso and a 120 ish screen,that the glands can chill in the iso for awhile.

and i freeze everything form the filters to the containers and funnels.

its really best to get a chest freezer to use just for extracts/bubble.
i do use fresh frozen material for ice water hash. its the shit!

sometimes my squeeze will be dark but never black.

so in retrospect i would say it is the water from the wet frozen material, and the extra 7% in the iso you used.

honestly i am/was pretty blazed , and didnt see that your using 91% . the 99% is worth it, even if you have to order it.

once you get it down youll love it so keep at it.

sox · Jun 22, 2012

Fools Gold said:
fwiw i use 99% iso and a 120 ish screen,that the glands can chill in the iso for awhile.

and i freeze everything form the filters to the containers and funnels.

its really best to get a chest freezer to use just for extracts/bubble.
i do use fresh frozen material for ice water hash. its the shit!

sometimes my squeeze will be dark but never black.

so in retrospect i would say it is the water from the wet frozen material, and the extra 7% in the iso you used.

honestly i am/was pretty blazed , and didnt see that your using 91% . the 99% is worth it, even if you have to order it.

once you get it down youll love it so keep at it.

i got some 99 and just ran it through....i do everything IN the freezer....hopefully this turns out better!

sox · Jun 22, 2012

just ran it through 99%... time for a evap...the filter NEVER looked like that with the 91%

sox · Jun 22, 2012

Fools Gold said:
so in retrospect i would say it is the water from the wet frozen material, and the extra 7% in the iso you used.
.

k, so i got the 99% and this stuff was dried compeletly then frozen..hows it lookin so far?
Also, i do have super fresh nug in the freezer...should i take it out and dry? or decarb in oven?
Thanks for all the help!
-Sox

Turtle Man · Jun 22, 2012

Decarbing is only for if you're going to eat it, not smoke it, so it depends on your preference

Found 99% at a CVS today :D Some didn't have it but one did finally track some down, really cheap without a big hazmat shipping charge.

Jump - perhaps the juicy buds extracting better is because the frozen water is keeping the chlorophyll locked up? Do you consider bone dry being best for BHO a myth too?

sox · Jun 22, 2012

damn, im smokin it....soooo just dry it out??

Turtle Man · Jun 22, 2012

From just the past couple pages of this thread, Jump likes it "juicy" but I'm not sure if that's 100% fresh or just normally cured i.e. 15% water content left, and he was talking about ethanol instead of iso.

GW has said repeatedly if you use iso on fresh buds it will taste soapy. I've definitely read for BHO totally dry is best, but iso is the polar opposite. (HA LIVE ACTION)

If you have the buds to spare why not try some similar buds, half cured normally and some completely bone dry, measure how much you get from each, and compare the flavors yourself? Which you like best might even vary strain to strain.

Graywolf · Jun 22, 2012

Fresh frozen material extracted with butane is delightfully floral.

A BHO extraction from dried material will be less floral, but smoother and milder.

That is because some of the lighter terpenes evaporate away with the water.

Jump, with regard to chlorophylls water solubility, Joe proffers that polar Chlorophyll forms micelle, which has the charge facing outward and the hydrophobic surfaces facing inward, which makes them miscible in polar water.

He still promises a write up.

sox · Jun 22, 2012

i messed up, dropped it all over the place trying to do a double boil thingy (not with flame)...bummer....when i ran the 99% over the fresh frozen nuggets it came out 100% clear, actually 110% clear, it took 3 times runing it over the same nugs again to even put a tint in it...i have that evaping with fan. I then put those nugs in a mason jar and covered with 99%...that is in the double boiler...we will see in a bit..ill post pix.

sox · Jun 22, 2012

fyi, that yellow/greenish pic above was the dry frozen nuggets semi ground up.
The fresh frozen was 100% clear.

jump · Jun 23, 2012

Hey Gray Wolf!
In the first lines of my letter, I want to assure you that my boring comments on chlorophyll dictated by the desire to only help you make your site faultless standard of information.
I sincerely wish that no criticism could not shake it stronghold.
But now, the chlorophyll is clearly its Achilles heel, a weak spot.
I ask you, as an old friend, take my criticism calmly and without resentment, even if my writing style will seem ironic or angry.

Graywolf said:
Bro, I'm convinced that it doesn't dissolve into ions like NaCl, but I still believe polar chlorophyll is removed from non polar solvents and transported away by washing it with saturated salt water, as we demonstrate with our procedure..
Do you have a better explaination of what is going on that you might share?

So you're saying that in your locations, chlorophyll was first dissolved in a nonpolar solvent, and stain it in green, and then transferred from a nonpolar solution and dissolved in water? LOL

It was the case, I tried to improve the extraction of ethanol using the pre-treatment in water, water cure. To my surprise, the cured material is beginning to trickle in chlorophyll and other dirt much faster than the original untouched material.

Then I thought that fat cells and chlorophyll is surrounded by a protective layer of material which is soluble in water better than alcohol.
Such substances are present in cannabis, I saw and described them in the report "add some water", if you remember.
Then after the flushing with alcohol material was rinsed with water and evaporated. Only a small part of the evaporated residue was dissolved in alcohol, and the rest did not dissolved in alcohol, but readily dissolves in water.

There was another case when, after collecting fem seeds, dried sepals were rinsed with butane, and the result was hard and brittle amber of emerald color.

I read that now distinguish more than a dozen types of chlorophyll. It's time to use a universal answer - "depends on the variety," a synonym for the words "I do not know."

jump · Jun 23, 2012

Turtle Man said:
Jump - perhaps the juicy buds extracting better is because the frozen water is keeping the chlorophyll locked up? Do you consider bone dry being best for BHO a myth too?

Hey Turtle Man!
Yes, I believe that the ice securely locks the chlorophyll and the accompanying fats in the body of the plant. Butane cannot dissolve the ice and get to these pollutants in order to transport them to the extract.

I also think that with the help of a tubular extractor cannot take advantage of this protective mechanism of ice. Dense packing of juicy material in the tube leads to blocking of the material, it sticks and freezes into ice icicle.

The efficiency of extraction of juicy material is also often underestimated for the reason that it is five times heavier and bulkier than the dry stuff. This introduces errors in the measurement and calculation of %%s.

jump · Jun 23, 2012

jump said:
...
Then I thought that fat cells and chlorophyll is surrounded by a protective layer of material which is soluble in water better than alcohol.
Such substances are present in cannabis, I saw and described them in the report "add some water", if you remember.
Then after the flushing with alcohol material was rinsed with water and evaporated. Only a small part of the evaporated residue was dissolved in alcohol, and the rest did not dissolved in alcohol, but readily dissolves in water.
...

Perhaps it is this substance is dissolved in water and releases fragments of chlorophyll, forming a suspension or colloidal solution?

Fools Gold · Jun 23, 2012

sox your looking good bro, sorry to hear about your spill( i usually pour my iso back into the bottles if i need to wait to evap, and so i dont spill it all)

k ill break down my method
freeze herb and iso ,and tools as long as possible.
i use dry, not bone dry all of the time, material
put it in 120ish filter
pour over several times, and back into bag cut off corner and squeeze(i always sep this, and this needs to be done in a timely manner)
at this point i like to leave my unfiltered iso , and glands chill for an hour or so
paper filter
evap

Graywolf · Jun 23, 2012

jump said:
Hey

jump said:
Gray Wolf!

In the first lines of my letter, I want to assure you that my boring comments on chlorophyll dictated by the desire to only help you make your site faultless standard of information.

I sincerely wish that no criticism could not shake it stronghold. But now, the chlorophyll is clearly its Achilles heel, a weak spot.

I ask you, as an old friend, take my criticism calmly and without resentment, even if my writing style will seem ironic or angry.

Not a problem brothersan, just trying to resolve our differences in perception, as I respect yours. Sometimes translations cloud intent.

So you're saying that in your locations, chlorophyll was first dissolved in a nonpolar solvent, and stain it in green, and then transferred from a nonpolar solution and dissolved in water? LOL

If we extract with alcohol and mix that alcohol and oil mixture with equal parts of hexane and saturated salt water, the color comes out with the water. I asked Joe to include that in his explanation, but the salt helps strip the protective lipids.

I have never tried it with straight water, though I did clean up my extraction of bud pipe resin with straight water. In that case, chlorophyll wasn't an issue.

It was the case, I tried to improve the extraction of ethanol using the pre-treatment in water, water cure. To my surprise, the cured material is beginning to trickle in chlorophyll and other dirt much faster than the original untouched material.

Then I thought that fat cells and chlorophyll is surrounded by a protective layer of material which is soluble in water better than alcohol.

Such substances are present in cannabis, I saw and described them in the report "add some water", if you remember.

Then after the flushing with alcohol material was rinsed with water and evaporated. Only a small part of the evaporated residue was dissolved in alcohol, and the rest did not dissolved in alcohol, but readily dissolves in water.

I know exactly what you are speaking of. I repeated your experiment and came up with the same result. A red waxy substance, un-dissolvable in alcohol.

There was another case when, after collecting fem seeds, dried sepals were rinsed with butane, and the result was hard and brittle amber of emerald color.

I read that now distinguish more than a dozen types of chlorophyll. It's time to use a universal answer - "depends on the variety," a synonym for the words "I do not know."

jump said:
Perhaps it is this substance is dissolved in water and releases fragments of chlorophyll, forming a suspension or colloidal solution?

"I don't know", pretty much sums up most of biochemistry for Moi, as I took only the requisite amount in the late fifties and early sixties and didn't use much of it in my professional career.

I am trying to learn as much as possible in my dotage, by reading a lot and allying with bright folks who found the subject far more fascinating than I, and immersed themselves in it, as opposed to manufacturing engineering program management as I did.

What I do know, is what works for us, and when faced with a body of information that says what we are doing can't possibly work, I don't easily lose faith. Instead, I look for where we are missing one another. When I respect the other persons opinion, I look harder.

That's why I didn't dismiss your input, but asked Joe, our biochemistry student to try to resolve the differences. Writing for forums isn't his favorite thang, so I've had to add some more encouragement.

He can hopefully shed some details on what I outlined, and that is that the polar chlorophyll most likely forms micelle with the charges facing outward, protecting the hydrophobic surfaces, so that they are miscible in the polar water.

If we can come up with a satisfactory alternate theory on what makes the processes that we use work, I most certainly will reword it on our site. Until I understand how I should alternately word it, I am at a loss at what to write, and am encouraged that the process we recommend works, even if it is for all the wrong reasons.

sox · Jun 23, 2012

Fools Gold said:
sox your looking good bro, sorry to hear about your spill( i usually pour my iso back into the bottles if i need to wait to evap, and so i dont spill it all)

k ill break down my method
freeze herb and iso ,and tools as long as possible.
i use dry, not bone dry all of the time, material
put it in 120ish filter
pour over several times, and back into bag cut off corner and squeeze(i always sep this, and this needs to be done in a timely manner)
at this point i like to leave my unfiltered iso , and glands chill for an hour or so
paper filter
evap

do you just let it evap or do you cook it out?

Fools Gold · Jun 23, 2012

sox said:
do you just let it evap or do you cook it out?

i evap with heat, on a bouble boiler. try to keep temps under 200 F.

takes a little hands on exp. to figure out what you like best, for me i like it cooked.

Graywolf · Jun 23, 2012

A couple of studies that might explain how water removes and transports chlorophyll. It suggest a binder protein that is water soluble.
Functions of the water soluble chlorophyll-binding protein in plants.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21481489

· © 2004 American Society of Plant Biologists
A Novel Role of Water-Soluble Chlorophyll Proteins in the Transitory Storage of Chorophyllide12

1. http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/134/4/1355.abstract

sox · Jun 23, 2012

Fools Gold said:
i evap with heat, on a bouble boiler. try to keep temps under 200 F.

takes a little hands on exp. to figure out what you like best, for me i like it cooked.

sweet thats what ive been doing, this stuff has a redish tint to it but its still black...taste way good though

jump · Jun 23, 2012

Graywolf said:
A couple of studies that might explain how water removes and transports chlorophyll. It suggest a binder protein that is water soluble.
Functions of the water soluble chlorophyll-binding protein in plants.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21481489

· © 2004 American Society of Plant Biologists
A Novel Role of Water-Soluble Chlorophyll Proteins in the Transitory Storage of Chorophyllide12

1. http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/134/4/1355.abstract

Judging by the links you assume that the water dissolves or weakens the attachment of grains of chlorophyll within the chloroplast?
Unfortunately, these articles are not readily available to my understanding. My familiarity with the anatomy of the cell is limited only by -

jump said:
Popular articles on the physiology of plants

I was interested in the location of the chlorophyll in the cell when suddenly got an emerald-green butane extract, washed from dry sepals peeled from fem seeds.
Green puzzled me, because the chlorophyll does not dissolve in nonpolar butane.

Then I decided that this strange behavior of chlorophyll depends on how the grains of chlorophyll are attached to the tissues of plants.
If they are held by some grease or wax, which are soluble in butane, after the dissolution of these compounds are released and the chlorophyll grains fill butane solution in a suspended state, but not dissolved.

With the naked eye, we cannot distinguish individual objects smaller than 50 microns and visually perceive suspension as a solution. Chl grains are 2-10 microns.
But even in these articles they write that the membranes are hydrophobic and water-soluble proteins are rare.

All chlorophyll (Chl)-binding proteins involved in photosynthesis of higher plants are hydrophobic membrane proteins integrated into the thylakoids. However, a different category of Chl-binding proteins, the so-called water-soluble Chl proteins (WSCPs), was found in members of the Brassicaceae, Polygonaceae, Chenopodiaceae, and Amaranthaceae families.

Graywolf said:
If we extract with alcohol and mix that alcohol and oil mixture with equal parts of hexane and saturated salt water, the color comes out with the water. I asked Joe to include that in his explanation, but the salt helps strip the protective lipids.

I have never tried it with straight water, though I did clean up my extraction of bud pipe resin with straight water. In that case, chlorophyll wasn't an issue.

I used this polar->nonpolar gateway, transferring the desired resin from the green solution in ethanol to non-polar petroleum ether, it was the British lighter fluid "Newport."
The procedure was carried out in several stages.
I added small portions of petroleum ether, shaking vigorously, waiting for the separation of layers, took a yellowed layer of ether with a syringe and added a fresh portion instead of removed.
Of course, each successive portion was painted paler than the previous one.

Only in the last step I added water. Without water, the layers are separated much faster and a very inconvenient boundary layer of emulsion does not form.

Chlorophyll, as it is insoluble in a nonpolar solvent, always remains in alcohol and after adding water, chlorophyll remains in alcohol, diluted with water, but not in water.

In my opinion, this ancient technology from the era before the butane in no way indicates the solubility of chlorophyll in the water.

Unfortunately Water cannot wash away Chlorophyll.

Alcohol Extraction

Alcohol Extraction

Fools Gold

sox

sox

sox

Turtle Man

sox

Turtle Man

Graywolf

sox

sox

jump

jump

jump

Fools Gold

Graywolf

sox

Fools Gold

Graywolf

sox

jump

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